Episode 314 – Unstoppable HR Professional and Company Founder with Sydney Elaine Butler

On this episode we get to meet and listen to Sydney Elaine Butler. I definitely believe Sydney is unstoppable for many reasons. First, growing up she had a speech disability as she will describe to us. Also, however, along the way she was diagnosed with other disabilities including being on the autism spectrum. Like all of us who are different from the “norm” Sydney had her share of challenges from others. However, she learned to deal with them and move forward.
 
In college she decided to get a degree in business and eventually she determined to enter the human resources field. After being out of college for only a bit over a year and during the time of the pandemic, Sydney formed her own company, Accessible Creates. She consults with companies and company leaders primarily about disabilities and she helps to create better retention and overall attitudinal environments for employees with disabilities.
 
We discuss many of the issues faced in the workplace and beyond by people with disabilities. I believe you will find Sydney’s views and attitudes quite refreshing and often innovative. I hope Sydney has offered some takeaways you can use in your own worlds.
 
 
 
About the Guest:
 
HR Professional | Founder, Speaker, and HR/DEIA Consultant at Accessible Creates | DEIB Facilitator | They/Them Pronouns
 
It is Sydney’s understanding that their professional purpose must be to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to be successful regardless of barriers in their way and that they must as a professional remove these barriers. Sydney conducts training and consulting for other companies on how to be more Accessible and Inclusive from a Human approach and how to recruit and retain more diverse individuals through the lens of Intersectionality/Human Resources as well as other areas of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in an authentic manner at the company they founded called Accessible Creates due to understanding the barriers that exist within the workplace for diverse individuals.
 
Ways to connect with Sydney:
 
https://linktr.ee/sydneyelainebutler
Website: https://www.accessiblecreates.ca/
 
About the Host:
 
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
 
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
 
https://michaelhingson.com
https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/
https://twitter.com/mhingson
https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/
 
accessiBe Links
https://accessibe.com/
https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe
https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/
 
https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/
 
 
 
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Transcription Notes:
 
Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
 
Michael Hingson ** 01:21
Well and a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be today, I am Michael Hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected mean, and it’s deliberately called that, as I’ve explained a few times before, because most of the time when people talk about diversity, they never talk about disabilities. They talk about sexual orientation and gender and race and so on, but disabilities get left out. In fact, I talked to one person on this podcast who said, when I observed you don’t mention disabilities. Oh, that social justice. It isn’t the same. Heck, it’s not anyway. Leaving that aside for the moment. Our guest today is someone I’ve been looking forward to chatting with for a while. In her name is Sydney. Elaine Butler, and Sydney is in Canada, and she has formed a company actually called accessible creates Cindy. Sydney is very familiar with disability. She has some and I’ll leave that to her, to you know, to talk about, but she brings an empathy and understanding. I think that’s extremely important, and that all of you will appreciate listening to. So let’s get on with it. And Sydney, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset and really glad you’re here.
 
Sydney Elaine Butler ** 02:43
Thank you so much for having me. Michael, well,
 
Speaker 1 ** 02:46
it’s my pleasure, and we’re really glad that you’re able to finally get here. We’ve been working on this for a while, and we’ve had to postpone a few times. Sydney’s had one thing or another going on, but that’s okay. We, we, we are unstoppable, so we always find a way to succeed, right? Exactly. Well, why don’t you tell us a little bit, maybe, about the early Sydney, growing up and some of those things. Yes, to start at
 
Sydney Elaine Butler ** 03:11
the beginning, right? Oh, where do I start? Um, so growing up, I first knew I had a speech impediment, and so I couldn’t say my R’s properly, and sometimes I would speak too fast. Sometimes still do tell me to slow down if I need to, but I sometimes I wouldn’t speak because I was too scared to say my R is wrong and to speak too quickly. And so I had to go to speech therapy from a young age, and didn’t understand that it was really different. You know, I just realized that all my other classmates living class to go do this, but it was mindful, and it’s what I knew. I also walked on my tippy toes a lot. So then I had to start going to physical therapy, and I was also playing soccer, and my parents told me a lot of different things to get me active and to get out there. And then we also the Girl Guides of Canada, which is like, equivalent to Girl Scouts in America. And so I enjoyed that, and that’s when I started to really find, find my voice and find what I’d like to do, and start becoming more outgoing and starting to exploit when things
 
Speaker 1 ** 04:27
Ah, okay, so was the speech impediment a manifestation of something else or what?
 
Sydney Elaine Butler ** 04:36
Yeah, so my dad also had a speech impediment growing up. I think it was just, it wasn’t, I think in hindsight, it was tied to my neurodivergency, but didn’t really know what that meant at the time, and at the time, we’ve seen a separate and knew that, I think a lot of people think that the speech impediments, i. Or something you go out of and think about a lot of kids have speech impediments, and so sometimes now it still manifests as I stutter sometimes, because then my brain goes too fast and my mouth can’t catch up. Yeah. And so just realizing that my brain thinks a little differently, and I think that had a part to
 
Speaker 1 ** 05:17
play in well. So along the way, you discovered that you were also involved with other disabilities, I guess,
 
Speaker 2 ** 05:25
yes, and so I think I also I kind of had depression when I was in high school. And so I think that led to me not knowing, you know, if I wanted to be alive or not, frankly. And so back to other disabilities and understanding that all these different things. So like, I felt like had to almost do the camouflage and blend in to like, for example, I say, would hang out with the nerds and be more nerdy, or hanging over the jocks and be more of a jock. And it didn’t really have a sense of self. I think that played a role in that, in my mental health and being having other disabilities.
 
Michael Hingson ** 06:08
How did your parents handle all of that?
 
Speaker 2 ** 06:12
I think they just treated me as you know, their child, you know, and they, for example, they would want me to go on to teach therapy. Oh, I need physical therapy now, because I’m walking my tippy toes and my my calf were too tight. And so they just did the best they could, and tried, you know, a lot of people, I think they never tried Kindle that was different. They just okay, this is what city needs to do the best and he can. And so I am very thankful for them for that, because I never felt like I was different. I just knew I had needed to get different things to be successful, but I didn’t really know the details and the depth of what was happening.
 
Speaker 1 ** 06:55
When, when did you figure all of that out? Or when did doctors or whatever, finally come up with a diagnosis that made sense.
 
Speaker 2 ** 07:05
Yeah, I think when my after, shortly after, I started college, and I was like, kind of, I’m still living at home, but really think that kind of becoming more independent, seeing that I could do some things I could do really well, and other things I was struggling with, and then going to the doctors, explaining the things I was experiencing, and really understanding that, oh, okay, this and that, you know, finding out what is happening with me and how to best help myself and help and being patient with myself. Because I think a lot of times you can get so frustrated because you don’t know exactly what’s wrong, but you know something’s wrong. And so I think by getting that, helping doctors, and getting help, even just expressing my limitations, and also I was, at the same time myself, helping kids, teens and hours with disabilities, and I related to them so much. And so I think that’s what prompted me to go to the doctors in the first place and be like, I relate more to this population. Why is this and why am I so good at my job working with these individuals, we were others that I felt like, I was like, don’t and so just seeing that, oh, yeah, that makes more sense, that, you know, autistic and all these different things that make up who I am,
 
Speaker 1 ** 08:22
right? So how long ago was it that you were in college?
 
Speaker 2 ** 08:28
I was so I was in college. I started in 2015 okay? And I graduated in 2018 and then I went to university from 2018 to 2020 because my college actually offered, the university offered a duty completion program, and so that was really beneficial. So
 
Speaker 1 ** 08:46
you were fairly recent in in the process, I’ve had some people on unstoppable mindset who were in their 30s before someone was able to accurately diagnose that they were different because they had autism, and I know that it is, for example, autism, and I know that for the longest time, people just didn’t know how to to understand it or describe it. So at least in a sense, I guess although it still took a while for them to figure out with you still it was, it was better that it happened now than years ago when they weren’t able to explain it or or even really understand it.
 
Speaker 2 ** 09:32
Yeah, and I think this is misconception that I think previously in the years, like you said, it was more like either there was very specific criteria around what they thought autism was, but now we understand it’s a spectrum and how it impacts, you know, people that you know, males versus females. And so I think it’s like, oh, you know, the lack of empathy is seen associated with autism. But like you said at the beginning, I have lots of empathy. And I think have hyper empathy, you should have to use a thing in females that are autistic.
 
Speaker 1 ** 10:07
Okay, so what did you get your college and university degrees in?
 
Speaker 2 ** 10:13
Yeah, so I studied Business Administration, human resources. So my aunt actually, she was human resources on a cruise ship. And I thought at first, when I was applying for university and in college, I because at college first, because I thought I was actually going to be environmentalist, because I high level. I’ve always wanted to change the world. So I thought, you know, with climate change and global warming was like, I want to be an advocate and talk about, you know, what’s it better do to help the planet? But I didn’t have the math grades for that. That was one of my strong suits and so. But I also took business as an elective in school. Like, oh, this seems like an interesting elective. I’ll take it, and actually did quite well in it. And I like people helping people. And I thought, you know human resources, even though we know they mostly help the employer, I can also help people in the workplace. And there’s so many different diverse aspects of human resources. And so that’s why I decided to study human resources in school.
 
Michael Hingson ** 11:18
You just avoided the math part of business, huh?
 
Speaker 2 ** 11:20
There is, there was still math in business. But it’s funny because I actually took statistics during my college and that that math made a lot of sense to me, like my brain. I became a statistics tutor, actually, and it was so funny seeing the one eight, the 180 of how I did math in high school versus how? And now I’m doing math while also paying for COVID Now,
 
Speaker 1 ** 11:46
well, at least you made it through, yes, which is, which is pretty cool. So when you, when you got out of college and university, what did you do? How soon? Well, let me just ask, What did you do? Start with that. So
 
Speaker 2 ** 12:05
I graduated from university in 2020, December, and so that was quite a challenge, as you can imagine, because I was actually supposed to have an internship that summer, and then the world shut down. And I remember I had an interview on my mom’s birthday, March 18, which is the day the world shut down. And then they sent me an email that Friday and said, if it wasn’t for the pandemic, for what’s the COVID variant of the COVID virus that’s going around, you would be getting the shop. This is a tip, but unfortunately, now we’re closing our doors because of the pandemic. Yeah? And that was very frustrating, because I was like, I could have had this traditional and it was HR. Was it HR position mixed with statistics, and I just mentioned my love of statistics. And so it was going to be perfect, right? But it didn’t happen. And so then I had another interview the last week of before I graduated from my degree. And again, I said, if you just had a little bit more experience in human resources, you would have got the job. And so if I got that job back when I had the internship, I would have bought this job. And I was very frustrated and but I didn’t let that stop me. I was like, Okay, what kind of HR jobs do I want to have? What impact do I want to leave on human resources? Because right now, the market is a mess. You know, a lot of people losing their jobs and don’t have jobs and love companies are still closed from the pandemic, because we’re still very much in the thick of it in December of 2020, and so I started attending human resource webinars, volunteering with other we actually have a local HR association here where you can get your designation from, and I was part of it, and they got a discount because I was a student not too long ago. And instead of volunteering with them, seeing how I consist, and then they actually had a big conference, and I met someone there that helped them. He had to take down 500 emails. He’s like, Oh, can you take down 500 emails? Because we’re not going to finish this webinar on time. Can you take down 500 emails? And I’m there, kind of with my new COVID Puppy in bed, because I didn’t have my camera on, just taking down all the emails. He said, Oh, can you send it to me? And so I sent him the email. And so actually worked at the HR startup. He had a little bit because he messaged me. He’s like, I’m impressed that you took down this email so fast. Do you want to come work at an HR startup with me? And at the time, new grad, wanted to get my feet wet. Want to see what happens. And so I joined there, um, but he was bootstrapping, and so he can only pay me peanuts, basically. And I was also, he’s, like, he’s, I encourage you to look for traditional work, but you can also get getting some experience here. I. And so I did that. And then also, then I actually applied for summer job, virtually and remotely, for a nonprofit organization called Skills for change. And I was like, I’m passionate about accessibility and disability inclusion and HR and human resources. And I was their HR clerk for eight weeks because the Canadian government actually paid for it. They have a Canada Summer Jobs Program, but they gained funding, and I made the recruitment process more accessible. I during Obama’s session, I talked about disability pride month, because I was there during Disability Pride Month, and really that I posted that on LinkedIn and some research like, Hey, do you want to come speak about neurodiversity in the workplace? I saw your presentation that you posted on LinkedIn, and I was like, okay, so I did that. And I really liked doing presentations and so and then I realized I could do more by starting my own company. I applied for a traditional job still, but maybe I can get my foot in the door by starting my own company doing little trainings about HR, disability inclusion, neurodiversity. What does that look like? And, yeah,
 
Speaker 1 ** 16:15
so when did you so that’s how you started accessible creates.
 
Speaker 2 ** 16:18
It was kind of informally starting accessible creates, you know, just like, it was kind of like planting the seed, I say. But then it was just like, I also, I was like, maybe I can make like, wellness bracelets as well. And like, they all these different things, and make fidget toys, and have all these different proponents. And then it kind of branched off to okay, I can do presentations. Oh, I think people also looking for consultants that have a unique skill set to look at policies and procedure, to look at job descriptions. And so it kind of took off into a world of itself,
 
Speaker 1 ** 16:53
all right, well, and so you’re, you’re still doing it.
 
Speaker 2 ** 16:59
Yes, it’s going to be three years a month from today, actually. Wow, August 31
 
Michael Hingson ** 17:06
Wow. It’ll be how long on August 31
 
17:09
two years, three years, which is cool.
 
Speaker 1 ** 17:13
Well, so you’re, you’re obviously having some, some good success with it.
 
Speaker 2 ** 17:20
I feel very lucky, but I’m also like, the amount of nos you get as a business owner or someone just trying to put your services out there, like, this is what I have to offer. And so I feel you’re so lucky. You got all these opportunities on like, the amount of people that say no to me, or, you know, the things you don’t see behind the scenes. And so just keeping at it and building my network and building my connections is so important. And so and finding people, I think sometimes, as business owners and entrepreneurs, we want to help everyone, but we can’t help everyone, right? And so finding that niche, okay, who can I really support here in this area?
 
Speaker 1 ** 17:59
So what are you finding? Are the areas or the kinds of places where you specialize?
 
Speaker 2 ** 18:05
Yeah, I found like, because, again, I have that human resources background and so leveraging that. I think it’s funny because when I first started it as, okay, my I’m going to do, I was kind of advertising as I have HR knowledge with like, also have this expertise of disability understanding, disability inclusion, accessibility in neurodiversity. And now it’s kind of been like, now people like, Oh, you’re the neuro diversity person that talks about neurodiversity there in Canada or talks about disability inclusion. I can also do human resource consulting. They’re like, oh, we need an HR consultant, but we want to sprinkle in those other things. And so people that are looking for that niche is really cool and really impactful, and also looking at policies and procedures, I think is because it’s a huge undertaking and to really and so finding the niche of clients that they know they need to modify the policies and procedures, but they just kind of overwhelmed, and don’t know where to start. And so that’s where I come in, yeah.
 
Speaker 1 ** 19:08
And so you’re able to help create policy or modify policy. And yes, what’s, what’s probably, would you say the biggest misconception that you have encountered when you’re dealing with companies regarding the whole idea of disabilities,
 
Speaker 2 ** 19:26
yeah, I think the biggest misconception is that it’s only the entry level position that people with disabilities want jobs, especially because actually most people with disabilities that actually were more likely to get post secondary education and to continue getting educated. And so it’s really interesting to see the bias that employers have against people with disabilities. And think, Oh, you get, you know, this funding from the government to help, you know, pay people with disabilities that can’t work, but that’s not enough money. They’re like, Oh, that’s enough money you can live on that you can. Live on that and really understanding that if someone wants to work, they should be able to work. And that accommodation is not you getting more to do your job, it’s leveling the playing field to make sure you can do your job and be successful at your job, and everyone deserves that. And
 
Speaker 1 ** 20:17
how are you able to change attitudes and perceptions about that?
 
Speaker 2 ** 20:24
Yeah, I really kind of challenge like, Oh, what do you currently think of disability, you know, and really making them think internally and like, you don’t have to say it out loud. You don’t have to, you know, just getting them thinking, why do you have this misconception of disability? What does what disability representation Have you seen in media, right? And so what really challenging what they think of when they think of disability. And so I remember, I was actually talking about HR strategy and accessibility strategy and merging them together at a conference I spoke at last year. And I was like, Oh, I left my cane at home. You can’t tell today. And there was such because they were kind of like they were paying attention. But they weren’t, like, folio paying attention. You can tell them about folio paying attention. So I made that joke, and then everyone was kind of like, there was like, a little bit of Lacher in silence, and then they were completely interested. It’s like, okay. They’re like, Oh, yeah, wait. Why did I, you know, have this misconception of what a disability looks like? And so it’s like, let’s get get into it,
 
Speaker 1 ** 21:31
and at least then you’re able to open the discussion. You know, I’ve talked about it on unstoppable mindset a few times, but I have a different definition of disability than than most people. And I’ll explain very briefly. People keep saying to me, well, disability, I say, disability doesn’t mean a lack of ability. And they say, Well, of course it does, because disability starts with dis, and I say, Well, okay, but what about disciple, discern, discreet and so on. They all start with this, and they’re not negative. No, disability isn’t a lack of ability. And over the last year, a few things have happened that caused me to to come up with a different definition. And mainly it came about because I was at a hotel in Hollywood, California last year at three in the afternoon when we lost power in and around the hotel, and suddenly everybody started to scream, and they’re running around trying to find or reaching for flashlights and smartphones and so on. And I realized disability is something that everyone has sighted. People have a disability, and their disability is their light dependent and and the reality is that we need to recognize that, in fact, everyone has a disability. Every single person with eyesight has the disability of being light dependent. Now, at the same time, you cover up your disability, because Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, and we have worked so hard to create light on demand that disabilities are covered up. Disability of light dependence is covered up. It is until it can’t be, because suddenly the power goes out or whatever. But the reality is, everyone in this world has a disability. The thing is that disability is a characteristic that manifests itself differently for different people. It doesn’t mean, though, that you don’t have it. Of course, most sighted people won’t necessarily buy into that, until suddenly they’re stuck without light for a good period of time. It doesn’t change the fact, though, that their disability gets covered up.
 
Speaker 2 ** 23:50
That’s that’s a very good point. Michael, I think again, that what is the perception of what a disability actually is and how someone interacts with it, and then how it impacts how someone shows up in the world and how the world views them. And so I think really understanding that, again, it’s a spectrum it impacts, and then this is so many different types of disabilities, and what does it actually mean to be disabled?
 
Speaker 1 ** 24:19
Well, and that’s and that’s exactly it. That’s why I use the definition that everyone has a disability. It’s just that it manifests itself differently for different people. And we need to start to recognize that, and if we really intellectually recognize that, then we begin to change our thought about what a disability is and recognize that maybe it has nothing to do with how well people think or how well people can work. We just need to use and find alternatives when necessary. I mean, look at look. At most buildings, office buildings, they have lights so that people can see where to go, to walk down a corridor, or they have Windows people can look out, or sometimes open for heater or whatever. But typically, they don’t necessarily open, but they have a lot of different kinds of things to accommodate light dependent people, computer monitors, but they won’t necessarily buy a screen reader for a person who is blind, even though that screen reader might not even cost as much as a monitor. Today, you have coffee machines that are touch screen we provide so many accommodations for employees based solely on eyesight, for example, or right handedness, or any number of other kinds of things. And we we really need to learn as a society to move beyond that. But that’s where the challenge is, of course, isn’t it?
 
Speaker 2 ** 25:58
Yes, I think it’s a we’re constantly making accommodations and making adjustments or making things easier for humans, you know. And how does accessibility play a role in that, and making sure that everyone has the ability to access what they need to access, and to do it the best way they can.
 
Speaker 1 ** 26:19
So how would you in and, of course, I’ve, I’ve perhaps messed this up by coming up with the definition of disability that I did. How would you find accessibility? How would you define it? Today,
 
Speaker 2 ** 26:34
I feel like disability is more like I feel like people think it’s like the medical condition you have or the experience you have, but I really think it’s like the barriers that people put in place, you know, and like the editorial barriers someone’s values is towards someone that looks different or appears different, someone’s barrier the barriers to accessing different tools and different resources and really understanding that in disability can be permanent, it can be temporary, it can be situational, kind of like you were getting at with that everyone has a disability and that it it can it looks different every day, and that there’s No one size fits all right, have disability, and it’s embedded ability as a spectrum.
 
Michael Hingson ** 27:26
So then, how would you find accessibility?
 
Speaker 2 ** 27:30
Yeah, so I think accessibility is synonymous for a lot of people, for people providing access, for people with disabilities, but I define accessibility as people have resources they need to do their day to day or to be successful girls that have a disability or not,
 
Speaker 1 ** 27:52
Right? And it’s all about education, isn’t it?
 
27:58
Yes?
 
Speaker 1 ** 28:02
So in the HR world, what could, what could HR do, and how can we deal with making human resources more accessible and inclusive for people with disabilities?
 
Speaker 2 ** 28:19
I think right now, Human Resources HR is trained to really, oh, look, we recruit, we want to recruit more people with disabilities. We want to hire more people with disabilities, but understand that there’s 25% only 25% of people that have disability actually disclose in the workplace that they have a disability, and disclose to human resources they have a disability. And meanwhile, there’s probably a lot more than that in the organization and in the workplace. And so we’re looking, okay, what are your retention strategies look like for developing people that have, you know, disabilities? What is, why is, you know, looking at management? Why is it? Oh, you’re doing good this job, this promote you to management. Okay, not everyone wants to become a manager, or it isn’t, you know, have the skills become a manager. Okay? What a you know? What other approaches you can use to develop an employee? How can you look at your culture to evaluate how people with disabilities are treated and how they feel? Is it is in finding out where those gaps are, or most people with disabilities having those issues with management, because management’s not understanding how to better accommodate and support employees with disabilities. Is it the co workers making that experience as human resources themselves causing these issues, and really figuring out where the issues lie for that particular organization, and increasing learning how to better increase retention?
 
Speaker 1 ** 29:41
So what do you? What do you do with accessible creates and so on, to really help in the education process and to helping with with truly having more of a higher retention for persons with disabilities? Yes.
 
Speaker 2 ** 29:57
So I, for example. To audit the policies and procedures, see how they regards to accessibility. They have any language around accessibility, because a lot of organizations, you know, there’s the ADA in America, and they have that in their policies and procedures. Meanwhile, the ADA is just the bare minimum and just coming to actually get a lawsuit. But what are the best practices you’re actually implementing? Do you have an accommodation policy procedure so people know how that can be accommodated, and managers and resources know how to best accommodate that employee, you know, and then also providing provide coaching. So brand coaching, if you know, for example, for the narrative version to our disabled employee and they need a bit more assistance knowing how to better advocate for their rights and advocate for themselves in the workplace. So also working in conjunction doing a management training on okay, if your employee comes to you with this information, what, what do you do and how to address that, and how to make sure that someone feels safe enough to disclose or discuss disclose that they need support from you to better do their job, yeah?
 
Speaker 1 ** 31:01
How do you deal with the employer, or even someone in HR, but somebody in authority at a company that says, Well, yeah, you raise good points and we’ll implement them, but it takes time. We just can’t jump into it.
 
Speaker 2 ** 31:18
Yeah? I I say, you know, like good things take time, but really understanding that, I think a lot of times, sometimes they scared to make the wrong choice and make the wrong decision. But I think also, just like by not doing anything and not taking the time to do things, take time, we all know this, and being able to be transparent with your employees. Hey, we’re implementing this thing. Because I think a lot of times management, or, you know, human resources, are doing these good initiatives, but they’re not communicating that to the fellow employees what’s being done. And so I think just being transparent and being able to be flexible and be open with, you know, the employees, and being honest, yeah,
 
Speaker 1 ** 32:06
it is hard, because people really tend to think that we got to move slow. But the reality is, if you don’t take the leap and start recognizing you’re treating some people in a substandard way, and make the conscious effort to change it, then you won’t. I mean, we have, we have seen so many shifts in the world. Smartphones came along, and everyone adopted them very quickly, because they saw the value of it. And I’ve dealt with people who are interested in making their internet websites more accessible, and some of them say, well, we got to do it, because if we don’t, we’ll get sued. And some people say, and rightly so, we’ve got to do it because it’s the right thing to do. But when you then switch that to Well, what about hiring people with disabilities and so on, or what about changing attitudes within your organization? It’s Well, that just takes more time, and I question whether it really should take more time, or should you really adopt a policy and then work to bring people up to it. Yeah,
 
Speaker 2 ** 33:23
I think it’s kind of a mix of both, you know, I think it’s obviously, it’s going to take time, but also, what are you putting in place to get it most efficiently and get it as quickly as possible, to make it as much people understand, to make to really break down those barriers and to get people having these discussions and having these conversations and just challenging what the norm was in the organization, and why do we have these preconceptions of what disability is in the workplace, and disability inclusion and things are going to take time, and that’s okay, but Really understanding okay how are you saying yourself and your organization are for the best success to better support all people in the organization? And
 
Speaker 1 ** 34:08
that’s really the issue, isn’t it? Because it’s all about conversation. It’s all about education. And the biggest problem I see in general in terms of dealing with people with disabilities within organizations or anywhere with the law, with whatever is that we just don’t engage in the conversation, and probably some of that is fear. Oh my gosh. I don’t want to become blind like them, and it could happen to me. I gotta avoid that, or or any other disability I might end up in a wheelchair. I don’t want to do that. And so there’s, there is a level of fear that enters into it, but also it is just having the conversation and starting to really make people more aware of you. What disabilities really are and what they’re not, and doing more of a concerted effort to make that conversation happen, I think we’ll do more to help educate and get people to move and realize maybe our attitudes and our ideas aren’t what we thought they should be. Yeah,
 
Speaker 2 ** 35:19
and it’s like understanding, why is there that fear? You know, it’s like because of what how media portrays it. It’s because of stories you’ve heard, you know. And we all have our different struggles, you know, going back to your point about what you said, you know, we all have disability in some ways. We all have different struggles. We’re all human beings. We all have good and bad days. And so what is the fear stem from? And, you know, people, a lot of people, are scared to say the wrong thing, but the worst thing you can say is nothing at all, right? And, you know, and so I think, like, well, I don’t want to say the wrong thing about disability. I don’t want to, you know, the cancel culture, or wherever they call, you know, these days, yeah. And so it’s just like, the worst thing you can do is not say anything, because, you know, just negative your own growth and the organization’s growth by not even wanting to make those mistakes. And you know the difference between intention and impact. You know, it’s maybe so impact someone if you say the wrong thing, but be like, Hey, I’m learning. You know, even if you’re a management or human resources, I’m learning every day. Can you know I’m going to make mistakes? And again, that transparency piece is so important, because we all know we’re humans, we’re going to make mistakes. And I think sometimes an organization, they really put managers and human resources on a pedestal that it shouldn’t be the case because Ken, we’re all human. At the end of the day, we’re all, you know, here to do a job, and we’re going to make mistakes, and that’s okay. And so really coming off the pedestal be like, I’m learning. I want to do better how you know, and being vocal and being transparent about that is so crucial.
 
Speaker 1 ** 36:56
I think you raise a really good point. And I think that that the issue is, as you said, saying nothing is the worst thing that you can do. But I also think whether some of us who have disabilities, in the traditional sense of the word, if I’m going to use that, some of us don’t want to be teachers. We’re tired of having to explain. But the reality is, we are the best teachers. We are other than are. We’re the best information providers, and we really should understand and be patient, because if we know that really, people behave as they do because it’s an educational issue and they haven’t got the education, who’s in a better position than we are to address that and and so I agree with what you’re saying. One of the things that I hear all the time is, well, you’re visually impaired, which I think is the worst thing that anyone can say about anyone who has any kind of eyesight issue. We’re not visually impaired, visually we’re not different. We’re not visually different and impaired, we are not it’s like Deaf people have learned if you say deaf or hearing impaired, they’re they’re liable to execute you on the spot. They recognize that it’s deaf or hard of hearing and slowly, although not nearly fast enough, blind people are starting to learn visually impaired is the wrong thing to say, because it contributes to the lack of understanding. Because you say impaired and we’re not blind, and low vision is a lot more relevant, and certainly not not negative. But if we aren’t willing to help educate, then we’re doing our own disservice to all
 
Speaker 2 ** 38:47
of us. Yeah, I think to your point that you know, it’s like, sometimes we’re tired of explaining things and don’t want to advocate, but we’re the best teachers, and we’re also giving that space to it’s like, do you want to share? Do you want to talk about your experiences? Do you feel comfortable? Do you feel up to talking about it? Hey, I don’t feel like talking about it right now. Little time, and that’s really okay, or little time, oh, I’m willing to educate you today and explain my experiences to you. And so I think there’s sometimes too much pressure that of people like, oh, I always say, I’m like, ask people questions. People want to answer your questions, but they don’t have capacity. You don’t have the energy to answer your questions. That’s okay. But hey, another time and be okay with that. Yeah. And I think just giving as human beings, giving each other compassion and giving each other that grace so important to drive this work forward.
 
Speaker 1 ** 39:46
Well, I think it is important to to find a mutually agreeable time. And maybe that’s part of the discussion is I really would rather not talk about this now. Can we set up a time to talk about it and and. So working toward that, I think, is extremely important to be able to do, because we are going to be, by definition, the best educators in terms of disabilities. And you can also get different people with a disability who will say different things. There are still some people who like visually impaired, but that’s what the professionals have ingrained at us, and it’s a process to get that out of our psyche and recognize that it’s low vision and blind and not visually impaired. I would prefer just blind. For anyone who has lost enough eyesight that they have to use alternatives to print to be able to function, I would prefer just to use blind. But the reality is that’s probably a larger step than most people are willing to take today. So blind and low vision works for a while, but at some point, we’re going to have to recognize there’s nothing wrong with being blind or there’s nothing wrong with being in a wheelchair, or there’s nothing wrong with being deaf or being a person somewhere on the autism spectrum, there’s nothing wrong with any of those. It’s just that we’re going to do things differently than you’re used to? Yeah,
 
Speaker 2 ** 41:22
I think language is so important too, because, like, the you know what the professionals say, what the all the research is saying, but it’s a What does that person identify with? But you know what they identify and what is their experience like? And really talking to them, to, you know it’s like. And I think a lot of times we we even when we’re educated, this is my personal experience. This is how I want to identify with a person with a disability, or I identify as a disabled person, you know, we preface that, and so I always make this joke. I’m like, people like, oh, do I say he’s visually impaired? Do I say, you know, he’s low vision? Do I say he’s blind? It’s like, well, his name is Michael, so call him Michael, you know, yeah,
 
Speaker 1 ** 42:04
and, and you can always ask, yeah, but his name is Michael, and that’s really the issue. One of the discussions that I’ve been involved with of late is sort of related to the whole first person language. It’s about descriptions. I notice in your bio you have a description, long, brown, curly hair, wearing a silver necklace and a red blouse. What do you think about the whole concept of providing or needing to provide, descriptions, especially if you’re in a meeting with people who don’t see
 
Speaker 2 ** 42:42
Yeah, I think it’s important. And I think and asking the person, do you want a description? I think, I think there you go. I think sometimes, by people want to just, it’s politically acceptable, but really talking to the person, hey, do you need to pick up description to me, but what will make you most feel most comfortable? He was asking that to anyone. What can I do in this meeting to make you feel most comfortable? What do you require of me to get the best experience out of this? And so just asking the person, and
 
Speaker 1 ** 43:14
that’s really the key, isn’t it. There’s nothing wrong with asking personally. I don’t need descriptions. Now, I’ve never been able to see with eyes, so it’s never been an issue for me. But I do know that there are people who have become blind later in life who may want descriptions and and that’s fine. The other side of it is, is it really going to add value say to a meeting? That is, does a description of a person really make you more comfortable? And I don’t, you know, I don’t know the answer to that for a lot of people. I do know, for me, it just takes time away from the meeting. But that’s but that’s me, and I understand that the one of the reasons I brought it up was that a couple of weeks ago, I was involved in the meeting, and after the meeting, one of the people wrote to everyone who was there and said, You know, I went online trying to find descriptive words for people with disabilities to provide those same descriptions for people with disabilities, but I can’t find them, and most of us said, Why do you need them? Because the reality is, there are a lot of different disabilities. There’s no one real answer, and I do agree that we shouldn’t hide who we are, but we can take this descriptive symbolism and and beat it to death so often too. Does it really make sense to have descriptors of people with with a disability?
 
Speaker 2 ** 44:58
Yeah, I think I. Yeah, it’s like, what, who is the person you know getting and what does that look like? And so I think understanding that, I feel like there’s so many things and so much information coming out about disability right now, how to be most inclusive, that sometimes we forget the nuance of just the human experience, yeah, and
 
Speaker 1 ** 45:23
yeah, well, and that’s what we essentially told the person who asked the question, that it’s not and a number of people did. It’s not really relevant to do it for disabilities as such. But I think your point is, is also well taken. You can always ask, and if somebody wants a description, then give them a description and and then move on. But it is, it is something that I I’ve been in meetings, and I’ve heard way too often you’ll have 10 or 12 people in the meeting, and they’re asked without finding out whether people want it when you first speak, give a description of yourself. By the time you’re done with that, you’ve wasted another 10 or 12 minutes of the meeting, which is only an hour long anyway. And what have you really gained from that? And and again, I understand that there are some people who might like that, because they used to see but I but I think that we can take it to an extreme, which doesn’t help. Yeah, I think
 
Speaker 2 ** 46:31
really understanding, what are the needs? What are the what’s the reason behind the meeting? What are the needs of the meeting? Who’s attending the meeting? Do they know? Do they do the people need it? They not need it. And again, providing even, like, for example, closed captions. But like, I think closed captions are so important in the thing like, oh, it’s for people only, people that are hard of hearing and but it’s like, for example, sometimes it’s like, oh, it’s better for me to process information if I see it written, instead of just hearing it or hearing it and seeing it. And so it’s a cool what is it adding to the meeting instead of, you know, yeah, what’s the value
 
Speaker 1 ** 47:13
and things like closed captioning? I absolutely can understand. And I think that meetings should have closed captions. And I don’t care what the meeting is, we should get into that habit. And the other, the other thing I would would say is that, again, descriptions are a different situation, because what does it really add to the meeting and but again, some people may really want it. So it’s a it’s a question to ask and then go from there. But I would say closed captions. Another one is one of my favorites. Somebody created this terminology, no Braille, no meeting. That is to say, especially when a blind person, for example, is involved. But I would say in general, it would be better to do this, and that is, if you’re going to have a meeting, don’t bring handouts to the meeting, disseminate them in advance. Because if you have a meeting and you’re giving people handouts and you’re talking, they’ve got to split their time between listening to you and reading the handout. And I don’t care what handout it is, you could take a few minutes early enough to disseminate handouts so that people can all be prepared. But especially that works for people like me who aren’t going to read those handouts, because you’re going to create them from a copy or anyway, or you’re going to print them in a multiple way, but probably don’t have access to a Braille embosser or some way to get them to me. And so the reality is that documentation should be provided in advance, and I think again, it’s a habit that we should all get into, then we don’t have to worry about it when somebody comes along who really needs to have those, those services.
 
Speaker 2 ** 49:03
Yeah, I completely agree. I remember, I think I started doing that a couple years ago. It was like, why I even myself? You know, I like to be okay with the agenda. I like to know the agenda, know what we’re going to talk about. And so I have Knowing that ahead of time is so important. And you we all have such busy lives, so even if you don’t have a like you said, traditional disability is going to help you better prepare for that meeting and feel more at ease going into that meeting and going into this conversation. And it helps everyone at the end of the day.
 
Speaker 1 ** 49:34
Sure, it does. Were you ever treated poorly or have any real challenges because of the fact that you have a disability?
 
Speaker 2 ** 49:44
Yeah, I think, like I mentioned the beginning, my, my speech impediment, my, I think people would make fun of my the way I would speak and so, and I just like, I don’t talk like that. You can, you know. And. That made me feel very uneasy. And then also, going back to, you know, dealing with depression in high school, people didn’t understand, really, what it was to have depression, and so like, Oh, it’s just all in your head. Or, like, and then I would kind of do some kind of reckless thing because I didn’t like I said I didn’t care if I lived or died. And so they were like, oh, and kind of make fun of me and or use it to their advantage to put me in other situations that weren’t not the best for me. And so this also led to complex PTSD, and so just understanding that when sometimes people don’t fully understand something that more likely to make fun of you, and not because, again, the impact work is intent, right? So sometimes they just kids being silly and not knowing really what they’re doing, but sometimes in demolition attack of using someone’s disability against them, right?
 
Speaker 1 ** 51:06
As as you may know, I worked in the World Trade Center and escaped after, well, on September 11, after the buildings were hit, and people, even to this day, say to me, Well, you didn’t know what happened, did you? And I said, No, not at the time. Well, of course, you didn’t, because you couldn’t see it. They revert to that type, even though, in reality, the building where it was struck was 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. And so one of the things that I say to people is, well, the last time I checked Superman and X ray vision are fiction, and the fact of the matter is, on my side of the building, no one knew what happened when we were going down the stairs. Not one single person anywhere around us knew what happened, because they were all on the other side of the building from where the plane was hit, and typically many floors below where the plane was hit. So of course, nobody saw it, but, but they want to revert to type when it comes to dealing with, say, a person who’s blind. Well, of course, you couldn’t see it, so you wouldn’t know. And that is just unfortunate, because, again, I think it contributes or comes from the lack of education. Yeah,
 
Speaker 2 ** 52:21
I think a lot of the whenever someone says something, sometimes it just like becomes for that misunderstanding, the missing, that the lack of education. That’s why education is so important. In disability, you’re talking about anything because, and sometimes I feel like people almost like the fear or the unknown fill in those gaps, and it can cause huge problems. Yeah,
 
Speaker 1 ** 52:48
what is one thing that you wished people knew? Well, it’s really two questions, one about disabilities and the other is about accessibility.
 
Speaker 2 ** 53:00
I think I wish for people knew about disabilities, is that I think the ability that it’s a spectrum and that impacts people differently, and can impact impact the individual themselves differently every day again. You know, for example, if I didn’t get enough sleep, it could contribute to other environments, factors that make my conditions act up, and for accessibility, I think that, yes, accessibility is an ominous with, you know, people with disabilities and giving resources people with disabilities, but accessibility allows us all to have the resources And the tools we need to be successful, and that it’s kind of the bare minimum of what you should be doing. Yeah.
 
Speaker 1 ** 53:50
And I think for me, if there were one thing I wish people knew about disabilities, is it’s okay to ask. It’s okay to want to know more. And I always will. If people ask me a question, I will, I will answer. One of the things that I encounter often is I’ll be anywhere from an airport to a hotel to a store, and a child wants to come up and pet my guide dog. And the parents will say, Oh, don’t go pet that dog. That dog might bite you don’t know anything about that dog, as opposed to saying it’s a guide dog and the dog is working. Now, some people do say that, but a lot of people don’t. For me, my policy is if I hear a child asking, especially when parents respond in the negative way, I will always stop take the harness off. Say no, it does okay. They can visit with the dog, and then it gives me the chance to to say when the harness is on, the dog is working. It’s got a job to do, because the dog make sure that I walk safely. But the dog. Dog isn’t going to bite you, and I don’t want you to be afraid of dogs just because, but you should always ask. It’s okay to ask and do that. I think that’s that’s really important, but oftentimes parents continue to create a fear level that we don’t need to have. So if a child wants to interact with my dog, I will always stop. If an adult wants to. If I have time, I will stop, and if I don’t, I will not stop. And I’ll say, here’s why I’m in. I’m in a hurry. I’ve got to get here. I really don’t have time. I wish I did, but I will, whenever I can, I will stop and let people interact. I’ll take the harness off because the dog needs to relax too, and the dog knows when the harness comes off, they can visit, and they know that they’re supposed to focus. But even so, when somebody pets pets, a dog, even in harness, they’re going to look, because the dog really likes the attention. So it’s a matter of of dealing with it. But by the same token, the bottom line is that I think, again, it’s all about education. So I don’t mind letting people pet the dog, but only when the harness is off. When I’ve had a couple of times that people would ask, and I say, not right this moment. And then they go right ahead and pet the dog. And I know that they pet the dog because the dog is looking and I can feel the leash move. And when that happens, I will give the dog not a hard one, but a leash correction, saying, leave it. And the people will say, Oh, don’t yell at the dog. I was the one that was petting the dog and said, No, you don’t understand. You got the dog in trouble. The dog knows better. I’ll deal with the dog, then I’ll deal with you. But, but, you know, it’s, it’s an educational process, but with kids, I’ll always stop. I think it’s important that children learn what guide dogs are and that that they are friendly. The only thing I would say is, I hope they’re not holding an ice cream cone at the time, because they’ll lose the ice cream cone. What would you tell your teenage self if you could go back right now and do that?
 
Speaker 2 ** 57:01
I would tell my teenage self that be authentically you, because, like I said, I felt like I was a chameleon in high school. And so by being more me, embracing my differences, embracing who I am, embracing all these different things that make up who Cindy is, and really living into that, and also giving myself with a bit more grace and compassion, because I guess I could do some things and things I couldn’t do, and now understanding okay, there’s some things I can do and Some things I can’t do, and that’s okay, and that I’m worthy, and that I think, yeah, I think that’s it
 
Speaker 1 ** 57:49
okay. I think that’s fair. Well, if people would like to reach out to you, maybe take advantage of your your services and so on, and interact. How do they do that?
 
Speaker 2 ** 58:01
You You can send me this. I have a form or a website that you can fill out, and my website is and my website is accessible, creates.ca
 
Speaker 1 ** 58:10
so accessible creates.ca so they can go there, and they can reach out and so on and and take it from there. Yes. And they can write you and ask you all sorts of questions,
 
Sydney Elaine Butler ** 58:23
if they choose, if they choose.
 
Speaker 1 ** 58:25
Well, Sydney, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun and educational, and I’ve learned a lot, and I really appreciate your time. I’m glad we finally were able to make this happen, and I hope all of you out there come away with a little bit of a different view of disabilities and all of us who typically experience that then, then you had before. Love to hear your thoughts. Love to get an idea of what you think. Please feel free to reach out to me. You can reach me at Michael h i@accessibe.com that’s m, I C H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or you can go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hinkson is spelled M, I C H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O n.com/podcast, wherever you’re listening or watching on YouTube, please give us a five star rating. We value your ratings, and would really appreciate you taking the time to rate and comment. We love your comments. We love getting your feedback, and so would definitely appreciate you doing that. If you know of anyone who ought to be a guest on our show, our podcast and Sydney, including you, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest, please let us know. Reach out, introduce us. We’re always looking for people who want to become guests on unstoppable mindset. And so with that again, Sydney, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a. A lot of fun. Any last words that you want to say?
 
Speaker 2 ** 1:00:03
Yes again. Thank you so much, Michael for having me on your podcast, and I look forward to seeing how I hope. I look forward to keeping in touch and seeing other conversations
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:00:20
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.