Episode 313 – Unstoppable Life-Long Learner and Challenging Teacher with Abby Havermann

As our guest, Abby Havermann will tell you, not only teachers, but all of us should be life-long learners. Abby grew up in Boston and then made an attempt to leave the cold for Southern California and USC. However, after a year she decided that the USC and LA lifestyle wasn’t for her and she moved back to the Boston area. She graduated college with a degree in Social Psychology. She also holds a Master’s degree which she will talk about with us.

Abby held jobs in the therapy and social work arena. She was married along the way, but ended up getting a divorce. She later remarried and worked for 12 years with her husband in the financial world. In 2018 she decided that talking with people about money wasn’t for her. She left Finance and began her own business and now she teaches business and other leaders how to “unlearn what no longer serves them”.

My conversation with Abby discusses fear, self perception and how to develop the skills to overcome fear and our own inner lack of confidence. Abby uses a variety of techniques including some “ancient methods” to work with her clients. You will hear about Abby’s Ted Talk entitled “Women’s Liberation is an inside job”. I will leave it to Abby to explain. I very much believe you will find this episode enthralling and relevant to our lives today.

About the Guest:

On the outside, Abby Havermann was leading what could easily be described as an enviable life – a respected couples therapist, adjunct faculty at the graduate level, married with an adorable child, and a white picket fence to boot. But many of her life choices had unconsciously been made through the lens of unworthiness – choices that weren’t aligned for her.
The Universe often does for us what we’re unable to do for ourselves, and Abby’s wake-up call was mortifying. She spent a long, dark night of the soul in an overcrowded jail cell when her relapsing addiction counselor husband had her bogusly arrested for domestic violence the day before she was scheduled to move out. That’s when Abby identified the myriad of ways she’d betrayed herself and shifted her focus from what she was doing in the world to who she was being. Through this process, she took back her power and, through the ensuing decades, has delved deeper into the human potential movement, trained with world-renowned thought leaders, and the rest is history.

A lifelong learner, Abby’s singularity resides in combining her psychology, neuroscience, spiritual, and coaching experience with her ability to transform difficult life experiences into a gratitude-worthy self-evolutionary tool — awareness done right can breed transformation.
Now, she teaches mission-driven, insight-oriented people to unlearn what no longer serves them through 1:1 and group coaching, speaking, training, and a soon-to-be-launched online course.

Abby’s direct signature style challenges clients to up-level while witnessing and holding compassion for the complexity of their multifaceted inner and outer worlds.

Ways to connect with Abby:

Website: https://www.abbyhavermann.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abby-havermann-93a915165
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abby.havermann
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbyisworthy

About the Host:

Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
 
Michael Hingson ** 01:21
Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike Hingson, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we get to talk with Abby Havermann. Abby is I find a very interesting person. She teaches mission driven, purpose oriented inside executives to unlearn, and we won’t go into the unlearning, because Abby’s going to talk to us about that. And so I don’t want to give anything away. I’ve read her bio, so I know, but at the same time, what I want to do is to let her do that. So Abby, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We’re really glad you’re here.
 
Abby Havermann ** 02:01
Thanks so much. I love your podcast, so I’m happy to be here as well. Well,
 
Michael Hingson ** 02:05
we love it too, and we appreciate the fact that you do well, why don’t we start, as I love to do, by you telling us maybe something about the early Abby, growing up and all that, and I know that we were comparing notes, and you grew up in Boston. Love to hear about that, and Steve’s ice cream parlor and all the other wonderful things about Boston. But anyway, and, and I guess one of my favorite places in Boston, Durkin Park, closed during the pandemic.
 
Abby Havermann ** 02:29
Ah, yeah, I’m not even, I know it’s terrible. I’m not familiar with Durkin park
 
Michael Hingson ** 02:33
because I was in Quincy Market. And
 
Abby Havermann ** 02:35
Quincy Market, okay, yeah, for sure, the chip yard in Quincy Market is my favorite. Oh, I didn’t go
 
Michael Hingson ** 02:43
there, but I went to Durgan Park several times, and I heard that they they closed. But, oh, sad, sad. But, well, tell us about the early Abbey.
 
Abby Havermann ** 02:56
Yeah. So, I mean, I grew up in, like you said, outside of Boston, and and I think just from a young age, I kind of came out pretty scrappy, and I had a big personality. I I always seemed to have something to say, and it wasn’t always in favor of what people wanted to hear. I felt like I I noticed things. I kind of always wanted to talk about the elephant in the room, and that didn’t really go over that well, but I had, you know, a close, you know, extended family, and spent lots of times with my grandparents and my cousins and my parents and siblings. And, you know, I mean, I don’t think it was that unusual of a childhood, so to speak, but Boston is bone chilling cold. If you’ve lived there, you know that. And so I wanted to get out as quickly as I could. And so after high school, I hightailed it out and moved, actually, across the country to spend a year at University of Southern California. Yeah, yeah. But that was such a culture shock, you know, being on the west coast from the East Coast, that I just went right back. I went back to the East Coast. Until later, I moved to Colorado, and yeah, that’s where I spent about 30 years. Well, Colorado
 
Michael Hingson ** 04:19
has its share of cold, I would point out, not
 
Abby Havermann ** 04:23
bone chilling cold, not bone chilling cold, you’re right with a dry air. It’s a totally different cold.
 
Michael Hingson ** 04:30
But the culture shock of being at fight on USC was greater of an issue than the bone chilling cold of being on the East Coast, huh? It was.
 
Abby Havermann ** 04:39
I mean, I just, you know, on the east coast, people like they’re harder to get to know, but they say it like it is. They’re very direct, you know. And when I went to California, I felt like it was so hard to get to know people, you just couldn’t get very deep, you know. Or at least that’s how I felt. Plus, I had been, I didn’t realize how sheltered I had been. Um. Um, and it was a very big school, and in the middle of watts, and it was, it was a culture shock for for sure. And I wasn’t a PAC 10 athlete, and I wasn’t, you know, in sororities, and all the things that you know are, you know, very popular in that particular area. So it just it. And I, I, I, I was so insecure at that time in my life that I think I I could not have broken into either of those, even if I had wanted to. I just in my own way constantly. So I pretty much just came running back and, you know, flew out a white flag of defeat in terms of individuating. And
 
Michael Hingson ** 05:42
did you go back to Boston? I
 
Abby Havermann ** 05:44
actually went to Wheaton College, up outside of Boston. All right. Now,
 
Michael Hingson ** 05:48
what did you major in at USC? And did you follow through on that when you went back to Wheaton?
 
Abby Havermann ** 05:54
Well, back to my confidence issue when I went to USC, I actually declared a drama major. That’s what I really wanted to declare. And I never took a single drama class because I did not have the confidence. And so when I went to Wheaton, I majored in social psychology, which was something that just came very easily to me, and I enjoyed and that’s what I did. Ah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 06:15
so social psychology and you got a bachelor’s. Did you go beyond that?
 
Abby Havermann ** 06:21
Yeah, I ended up getting a master’s in social work at Smith College school for social work. And that’s when I after that, I worked in several hospitals as an inpatient psychiatric social worker in Denver, and then shortly after that, I opened my own private practice, and I had that for little over a decade, and that’s then I closed my practice and ended up going into business with my second husband as a financial advisor, because he had a financial firm, and I worked in his office with him for 12 years. And that’s when I realized I want to talk to people, but not about money. And I had to go back to my roots, and so not as a psychotherapist, but that’s when I went back to as a teacher of unlearning and coaching and having learned some about, you know, neuroscience and ancient wisdom practices and things like that that greatly informed the psychology teaching.
 
Michael Hingson ** 07:15
Now, when you say ancient wisdom practices, tell me a little about that, if you would. Yeah.
 
Abby Havermann ** 07:21
I mean, you know, there’s so much out there. And you know, whether it’s, you know, the thema and the teachings of Buddha, or whether it’s, I do a lot of work with a guerrilla teacher, he’s a mystic from the early 1900s and it weaves together. You know, the more I learn about all these different things, the more everything is seems to be coming back to the same thing. And science now is sort of uncovering things that they’ve known for so long, for 1000s of years, whatever the practice is, yoga, science, Buddhas, Buddhism, all of those kinds of things everywhere I turn it’s, it all comes back to this. I mean, it comes back to so much. But this, this innate power that’s in us to change, you know, this innate wisdom that we have. And this, the more I you know, think about it and learn about it and study with people about it. It’s we have gotten so smart over time, but we’ve really not gotten any wiser. Yeah, and that’s why I like going back and looking at some of those practices.
 
Michael Hingson ** 08:33
I was watching a news broadcast this morning, and one of the things that they mentioned was that there has been a study that says that at least one in four people wake up every day and have a bad day, and they know they’re going to have a bad day because they wake up with a headache or whatever, and they know they can’t Change having a bad day, which is bizarre to me. Yeah, I reject that concept. I think, as you are pointing out, that we do have control over that, but we have so many people, as I would put it, that don’t listen to their inner voice. And you can say, listen to God or or whatever. But the bottom line is, we don’t listen. And, course, we have a bad day because we don’t listen to the answers that are right there in front of us.
 
Abby Havermann ** 09:26
Yeah. And we’ve been taught not to, right. We’ve literally been conditioned, you know, from, you know, the industrial age, you know, and all the learnings that we had, you know, with Newtonian physics and all that stuff, to just never, to always look at our outside circumstances. And it’s what you’re saying is so true, like the innate wisdom is in us, and it’s the last place that we ever look, yeah, and, and, and, to your point, it’s, it’s unbelievable. We we are taught to think it’s like, oh. Something happens, we have an emotional reaction to it, and it’s like, oh, now I’m just stuck with these emotions. Nothing I can do now. I’m just here with this. And that’s the bit, right? Like, that’s the dream that people like you and I have to, like, help people understand that. No, no, no, you you have the power to change your brain and body. You don’t have to live by that.
 
Michael Hingson ** 10:18
How do we get people to understand that. I mean, obviously that’s part of what you do. So how do you, how do you get people to unlearn that kind of, I won’t even say it’s a concept, because it’s not, it’s just a bad message. But how do people unlearn that?
 
Abby Havermann ** 10:37
Well, yeah, I mean, first we have to understand like that. We came upon it honestly, right, like that, that we’re really in fight or flight so much of the time, that the way we’ve evolved was for survival. And if you’re going to evolve for survival, you’re going to be looking into your environment to find out, you know, what you need to do to keep yourself safe. So we’re our brains are wired to look outside ourselves and say, Oh, this is the problem. I need to fix that. And if I fix that, I can be safe. And so we’re very rarely looking inside ourselves. And in fact, when you’re under stress, you physiologically can’t look inside yourself, because you’re in a state of where you’re like, run by your hide. Where do I need to go? You know? How do I need to keep myself safe? You’re not looking in yourself and be like, Oh, let me ponder. You know how to evolve myself today, right? So part of it is teaching people, literally, how to physiologically shift, to open up the centers of the brain that are more aligned with curiosity and community and and the empathy circuitry and all of the things where that wisdom we can really plug into the wisdom, the wisdom that’s in your heart, right helping people understand that we store emotions in our bodies, and those thoughts and emotions that we’re firing are creating our actions unconsciously. And it’s not hard to get someone to understand it. As soon as you start talking to them, right, because you can give so many examples, they’re like, oh, my god, yeah, you’re right. When this happened, then I automatically and unconsciously, you know, had this thought and feeling, and then I acted this way, and before I knew it, you know, the whatever, there was an argument with my co worker, or the team meeting blew up, or, you know, whatever happened. And as soon, as soon as they begin to get curious about how their own behavior, their own thoughts and emotions, can impact the people around them, that’s empowering, right? That’s when you realize you really do have power. It’s not I’m going to empower you to be able to have a voice. No, it’s, it’s being empowered inside of yourself to recognize the power that’s already inherently there.
 
Michael Hingson ** 12:50
I love something you said, though, which is that this is what we’re taught, and I think that that’s exactly right. I don’t think we’re born that way, necessarily, but that is what we’re taught. Yeah,
 
Abby Havermann ** 13:03
no, we are, and not only that, we’re encouraged to, right? I mean, like, I read somewhere, I don’t know if it was maybe in the book letting go. I can’t remember, but how Freud’s was really misunderstood when he talked about expression versus repression, that the idea was not, wasn’t intended to be that if you just say your emotions out loud, you will release them. And this is what we’ve kind of been taught from ancient, you know, like back in the psychology, and even in psychology in school for you know, that degree, it’s sort of like all we need to do is just express what’s going on. So now we’re complaining to each other where, you know, and everybody’s going, Oh, you’re right. You have a right to feel this way. Yes, this is terrible. This is terrible. And yes, we do have a right to feel this way. I mean, you know, right better than anybody. I have a one of the reasons I was so attracted to your podcast is that I have a child who has a disability. And, you know, there’s lots and lots of reasons to feel bummed out or upset or limited, right? That’s not the question. The question is, do you really want to
 
Michael Hingson ** 14:11
That’s right? The reality is, you may have the right to do it, because you have the right to make choices, but on the other hand, is that really the best choice? And the answer is not really Yeah,
 
Abby Havermann ** 14:25
and not because you’re a better person if you don’t, not because you get kudos, you know, but because your life is better, because you determine how you know whether you’re happy or sad or resentful, you know, or holding a grudge, you know?
 
Michael Hingson ** 14:41
Yeah, I agree. And I see it so often. I remember so many times I’m asked what you were in the World Trade Center and you escaped. Did you go through a lot of therapy? Because you seem like you’re pretty normal now, whatever that means. And I point out, no. No, I didn’t go through counseling directly, but what I did, and it was a little bit unconscious, at least, I didn’t think about this as a reason for doing it, but my wife and I agreed that talking about the World Trade Center attacks and allowing people to hire me to come and do speeches and talk about the lessons we should learn, made me pretty visible, and a lot of reporters wanted to do interviews. And the reality is that my therapy ended up being the media coming into our home literally hundreds of interviews, asking every question from the most inane to the most insightful you can imagine, but that made me talk about it, and that’s I think the biggest key is being able to talk about it, and recognizing, as you do that you’re thinking about it, and that causes your brain to help you be able to put it all in perspective, whatever that may be and whatever it is,
 
Abby Havermann ** 16:07
yeah, and I think you know what you’re talking about is so important, because I think we get mixed up so easily between what is the difference between acknowledging what happened to you and dwelling in what happened to you. And it is so important to be able to talk about it and acknowledge like the feelings that you have, and not deny those. If we just think, well, I should be, I should, in quotes, be able to, you know, be in a great, great mood, even though I feel like crap or whatever, and you just keep trying that it’s not going to work you. You have to acknowledge what is. You have to be truthful about what is but understanding that you have the power to overcome and all of that resides inside of you, and it may take, depending on whatever happened, maybe you’re over it in 30 seconds. 911 going to take a lot longer, right? Like you have the patience to to to walk through that with yourself, but understanding that it’s not what happens to us in our lives that’s important. It’s it’s how we react to it, right, what we think of it. And look at what you’ve made of that, right? Like, what a phenomenal story, what a horrific, you know, accident and not an accident, horrific event. And look at how many people you’ve touched as a result, and how many people you’ve taught and how many lives you’ve changed well.
 
Michael Hingson ** 17:26
And one of the things I realized at the beginning of the pandemic, and we’ve talked about it some here on the podcast, is that while I wasn’t I won’t say I wasn’t afraid. On September 11, I had learned to control fear because I prepared for the eventuality that there could be an emergency. And there had been a bombing in the World Trade Center in 1993 in the parking lot. It didn’t do a lot of damage, but nevertheless, it caused a lot of people who bought at the World Trade Center. So I came along at a time when I was hired to open an office, and in opening the office, we got a great rent, got a great price for it, and we moved in, and I immediately started spending a good amount of time learning all I could about the complex including what all the emergency and evacuation procedures were, emergency preparedness, what to do, Where the emergency exits were, and how to get anywhere, I needed to go, not just one way, but every possible way to get around. And that was something that, as I mentioned before, about physics and paying attention to details, that’s the whole point of it. But what all that did was actually, although I never thought about it for many years afterward. But what that really did was created in me a mindset that you know what to do. Well, an emergency happened, and I was able to let that mindset take over, and as I describe it to people, allowed my fear to be a guide and a device that helped me stay motivated and focused, rather than the fear overwhelming, or, as I put it, blinding me to what was going on, so I couldn’t make a decision. And I believe that we do have that capability. We don’t need to allow fear to overwhelm us and to make life impossible on it. Yeah, I understand there’s a natural reaction, and people have physical reactions when they’re afraid and so on. But the reality is, from a mind standpoint, you do have the ability to control that, and so you do have the ability to take that fear and make it a positive thing and not a negative thing that overwhelms you, because you suddenly totally just feel helpless.
 
Abby Havermann ** 19:46
Yeah, I mean, there’s so much to unpack in what you just said. I mean, you know, I guess one of, one of the things is that, you know, when I think about it’s like, obviously, that’s such a feel for situation. But I often think about the degree to which people are in. Fear just on a daily basis. You know, when you talk to business owners and you know the fear that realistic or not, you know that financial ruins going to happen, the fear of, you know, what am I going to look like when I get up on stage and give this presentation, the fear that you know you’re not going to be able to, you know, make the quota, the fear that your boss is going to be upset. You know, all of these things are, you know, the fear of what’s going to happen with your children. You know, all of this futuristic thinking, like, literally, if you think about it, I feel like we are in fear so much of the time, and it’s just an unconscious process at this point. And to your point about it’s not just your mind, right? Like, because the mind can’t really get us out of fear. The mind just sort of chatters to itself, and the fear is stored in your body. And so really, having an understanding of how the mind and the body work together is so important to be able to overcome those emotions, because emotions are stored in your body. We can talk to I mean, how many times have you talked to people that are talking themselves, trying to talk themselves out of feeling a certain way? You cannot talk yourself out of feeling something? It won’t work, and then you’ll just end up feeling, you know, deflated because you couldn’t do it. It’s really a combination of understanding with your mind what you what needs to happen with your body as well. Well,
 
Michael Hingson ** 21:32
what you have to do is to learn how to step back and say, what is that is really a problem for me right now, what do I what am I really afraid of? And should I be afraid of it? One of the things that I have talked about a fair amount regarding September 11 is that I realized that there are a lot of things over which we don’t have control, and if we, as we usually tend to do, what if the world to death and worry about everything in the world that goes on, rather than focusing on the things over which we really do have control, we’re going to have more and more fear. We’re going to just drive ourselves crazy, and we’re going to continue to do what we’ve always done. But the reality is, and I think a lot does have to do with the mind, but it is also communicating with the body. It’s a mind body process. But the ultimate issue is that we have to decide and learn how to take that control and focus just on the things that we really have influence over and not worry about the rest of it. So one of the things that I did when the pandemic started was to begin writing a book called, as it turns out, live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the idea behind the book is to teach people how to control fear. And I use examples of lessons that I have learned from working with eight guide dogs and my wife service dog, the lessons that I learned from them that when we apply them, will help us really deal with fear in the right way. So it’s all about learning to control that fear. And you know, as an example, what if, as I said, we What if everything to death, and most of the time we don’t have any control over it, and it isn’t going to happen anyway, but we spend so much time worrying about it that we don’t focus on the what ifs or the the issues that are directly really relevant to us.
 
Abby Havermann ** 23:40
Yeah, yeah. And that that, what if question that analytic brain is really what separates us from from dogs and animals, right? We have the ability to get stuck in this analysis paralysis, and we’ve been sort of taught like hanging out in that left brain is really it’s the more important place to be. And if we just keep going around and around and chewing on something, we’ll get an answer to your point all the way back to the beginning of what you said without looking inside ourselves at all, which doesn’t require really any thought. It’s more sensory oriented. You know what needs to be done here? And it’s really I find, you know what I’ve learned throughout the years, and what I teach is that, and practice is that it’s when you settled your nervous system down, you know, when you stop, you know, feeding into a dysregulated nervous system that those options are available to you, and you’re able to kind of stop the fear and just observe, rather than analyze, what’s going on
 
Michael Hingson ** 24:46
well, and we really can do that. One of the things that I talk about live like a guide dog, which was published in August of 2024 is that if we would take time. Time at the end of every day to step back as we’re falling asleep, even when it’s quiet, and look at what happened today, what worked, what didn’t work, and and I reject the the concept that anything is a failure. It’s a learning experience. And good things that happen to us are learning experiences. How could I have done that better than I did. What else could I have done, but in the case of things that are a problem that we tend to dwell on, why is it a problem? What was I afraid of? How do I deal with that, and really taking the time to start to deal with answering those kinds of questions and doing it regularly, and practicing it is what is going to start to allow us to be able to use our minds to communicate with the rest of us and move forward a much more positive way, and maybe tomorrow, not wake up with a bad day,
 
Abby Havermann ** 25:54
right? And and, like you say, being able to do that from an objective standpoint, I so much of what I see is that people just beat the hell out of themselves. Yup, so that simple exercise of, you know, what do I love, about what, what I did and what, what would I do differently, becomes, you know, a session of self flagellation, of like, I’m so terrible and I did this and that that wrong, and blah, blah, blah, blah, or the opposite, where it’s like, I didn’t do anything wrong, and we completely, you know, dissociate from the parts of ourselves that are showing up that aren’t useful in a situation. And when you can teach people to sort of have more of that objective focus, because they have, you know, they’ve built a part inside themselves that can be loving and empathic toward themselves and others that they can stop and say, All right, well, let’s see what, what do I love about what I did, and what do I need to do differently next time to make it go differently, it’s not, it’s not a it’s not about your horrible person or your great person. It’s nothing to do with that right.
 
Michael Hingson ** 26:57
And the issue is, when you talk about, what did I do wrong? You didn’t think it was wrong until it didn’t go the way you wanted. And so it doesn’t mean that that you intentionally made a mistake or anything like that. So you got to be able to step back and say, so what really happened here? What do I learn from it? I’ve learned that one of the most important things I can say is not that I’m my own worst critic, but rather I’m my own best teacher, which is much more positive anyway. But you know, the fact of the matter is that we worry about so many things so much, the Mark Twain and other people who have made comments about fear point out that most everything we’re afraid of or fear will never come to pass, and we just spend way too much time worrying about it, and it drives us crazy. Well,
 
Abby Havermann ** 27:52
yeah, and you know what you were just saying? You know, I mean, one of the things that I bring to teams and organizations, one of the modalities that I use is Positive Intelligence, which was created by Sherzad, you know, he talks about the the sage perspective, which is, everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity, right? And when you’re looking at it from that standpoint, if everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity, there is no failure. There is nothing to beat yourself up about. It’s just a curiosity of like, okay, what’s the gift here? And it’s very hard, I think, when people are under intense stress in business and, you know, dysregulated and dealing with all kinds of things, to be able to stop and think there might be a gift in losing this client, or there might be a gift in having to do these layoffs, but there always is. There always is,
 
Michael Hingson ** 28:53
well, and the the other part about it is, when you talk about stress, how much of the stress, if you will, that we feel is induced by us, yeah, because we don’t learn to step back and and look at it in a little bit more of an objective way.
 
Abby Havermann ** 29:12
Well, it’s reinforced by us, right? Like we we are firing the same thoughts and we’re firing the same emotions, and we’re doing that over and over and over and over again, and we’re dumping more and more cortisol in our bodies, right?
 
Michael Hingson ** 29:24
And we’re not learning a thing, or we’re not learning a thing, it’s there to learn, but we’re not learning it. Yeah,
 
Abby Havermann ** 29:32
exactly, yeah. And people are becoming more and more divided, you know? But the great news is that, you know, it doesn’t have to be that way, right? It doesn’t have to be that way. And that’s, you know, why I think you know the message that that you put out there is, is so very, very important.
 
Michael Hingson ** 29:54
Well, I think it is, and I think that we can learn. And that we can progress in a in a much more positive way, and we may discover along the way that we end up doing some of the same things that we did, but for different reasons, and maybe they really weren’t such bad things anyway.
 
Abby Havermann ** 30:18
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have, you know, I have clients who have had to, you know, lay off people, you know, and when you’re a business owner, you’re leaning off people. It feels like the worst thing in the world. You feel like, I know I’ve done it, yeah, right. I mean, people go into they feel like they failed, they feel guilty, they feel worried about the rest of their employees. And when you start to really unpack it, you know the truth of the matter becomes something else. First of all, if you you know are having to go through a layoff or something, you’re typically anything that you do, that you’re doing right now, next year, you’re going to be doing at a bigger you’re going to be playing on a bigger stage. So if you’re laying off in your businesses this size next year, you’re going to avoid whatever the problem was that caused you to have to do that when you’re playing with a bigger stage, when there’s more money on the line, right? Yeah, you know that there’s when you can approach the world and understanding that your failures are your lessons, and sometimes God does for us what we can’t do for ourselves. You know, it makes life a lot easier to get through. You know, we don’t end up holding on to the same things, and we learn, like you’re saying, faster, instead of continuing to do the same thing over and over again and making the same mistakes over and over again,
 
Michael Hingson ** 31:39
life gives us the opportunity to really live an adventure and grow if we choose to do it. Unfortunately, all too often, people just won’t do it.
 
Abby Havermann ** 31:51
Yeah, well, I mean, I always say, like not everybody, not every soul is here to evolve. Not every soul is here to do the same thing. And we need, we need everybody here, right? But there’s a there’s a collective conscious, right? And some people are here to evolve to a certain place. Some people are here to go beyond. Some people are here to just do it all over again,
 
Michael Hingson ** 32:15
well, but those people who do it all over again hopefully eventually get to the point where they can evolve. And that’s part of the issue, of course, is, when are you going to decide to do that? Well,
 
Abby Havermann ** 32:26
it’s never, it’s never ending, right? It’s like, there is no evolved. It’s we’re evolving, right? Like, I hope. I like to think that I’m overcoming things in this lifetime that I won’t have to come back and do it another but I’m sure they’re saying that I’m not, you know, like, so it’s a, it’s a never ending process, but I think we are. We’re taught, you know, that we’re not well. We’re not taught that. We’re not taught that, you know, life is a playground. You know,
 
Michael Hingson ** 32:56
no, we’re not. We’re constantly taught that life is hard and so many other things. Rather than Life is an adventure, we can have fun. We ought to have fun. And yeah, there are times to be serious, but still, you can do that in a positive way.
 
Abby Havermann ** 33:13
Yeah, exactly.
 
Michael Hingson ** 33:16
I don’t know. Maybe Mark Twain was right. I wonder if God had read a man because he was disappointed in the monkeys, but we won’t go there. Well,
 
Abby Havermann ** 33:22
I feel like that now, like, you know, somebody’s looking down on us and going, Oh, you guys haven’t learned anything yet. Let me throw, let me throw some more things for you to get really upset and divided about and see if you see if you can learn now, and keep kind of proving over and over again that we’re not going to learn. We need to keep, we need to keep experiencing all of these things
 
Michael Hingson ** 33:44
well. But he’s probably pleased when somebody does learn. And so that’s good too, right? Right?
 
Abby Havermann ** 33:50
Because it’s a collective right? So the more people that begin to start to look inward instead of outward, and begin to see that, you know, they have that power inside themselves. I always say, like, I always wonder, what would it be like, you know, if, if, instead of, you know, focusing on these external things, we were all always focused internally. So something upsets me, and instead of saying, You upset me, or this thing upset me, I immediately go inward and say, Isn’t this curious that this, this upset me so much. I wonder what that’s about. And if I’m taking care of all of that inside of me, and you’re taking care of all of it that’s going on inside of you, there’s really nothing to argue about. Yeah, and you have more control over your life because you don’t have control over what other people do. You can ask them to do things differently. You can say you’re upset about it. You can try and manipulate your life so you don’t have to deal with things. But at the end of the day, you ultimately don’t have control over it. It might work 50% of the time, maybe, if you’re lucky, the only thing you have complete control over is how you react to something, right? And
 
Michael Hingson ** 34:59
that’s going to tell. Next steps, and that’s what we need to learn to do, is to do a better job of truly reacting, whatever that may mean in any given situation, rather than doing knee jerk reactions to something, and not necessarily doing a very positive or helpful thing. But the reality is, we can learn to listen to that voice inside of us that is there to tell us how to react if we choose to use it and listen to it.
 
Abby Havermann ** 35:27
And I would say, not even react, but respond. Right? The word responsibility, it’s the ability to respond. You know, reacting is what I’m doing when I’m my nervous system is already dysregulated. Right? Responding, you know, is something we can train ourselves to be able to do, to stop, and it doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t happen overnight. And there’s different things that that happen that are going to trigger you more than other things,
 
Michael Hingson ** 35:55
right? So, when did you start teaching and doing what you’re doing now.
 
Abby Havermann ** 36:03
Well, I after I left my the financial advising, and during that time, I begin to really learn a lot about neuroscience and study under some mentors. And that’s when I really realized, like, Oh, this is, this was sort of the missing link for me as a psychotherapist, this is, like it reaffirmed some things that I kind of intuitively knew. And so I began to start doing it in one on one, coaching and teaching in that sense. And then eventually, you know, doing groups and working with teams and things like that since then, so and just kind of bringing all of the modalities that I use together to help people get unstuck, help teams get unstuck, so that, you know, it’s possible to to work in ease and flow. And we’ve all had those times, I hope, where you have a day where you know, you’re just running around with your hairs on fire, and you’re going from one thing to the next, the next, versus also, you have a day where it’s like, gosh, everything just went smoothly. And I didn’t worry about time, and I got ended up getting more done than I ever thought I could. You know, like we have control over what kind of day we’re going to have. And so it becomes so important, because when we can go into our work or office or our meetings with our clients, instead of being hijacked by all these thoughts of like, Oh, am I prepared? What are they going to think? Oh, my God, that all of these things, instead of going in from, you know, in a place where you’re grounded, and what I call inside out instead of outside in, like, worrying about, what do they need? Instead of what am I here to be of service with? It makes everything flow. And I think we need more people in flow and less people in stress and anxiety. So that’s kind of when I, when I really started, started to do it. Because I can tell you, in the financial services industry, there’s a lot of people in stress
 
Michael Hingson ** 38:10
and anxiety. Yeah, well, having sold on Wall Street for for many years, and watching traders and, oh yeah, all the things that go on. Yeah, I hear exactly what you’re saying. What did your husband think when you decided to leave the financial industry and go back into more of what you’re doing now?
 
Abby Havermann ** 38:28
Well, I don’t think he was thrilled, because it left him with, you know, a lot of extra work. But you know, we had actually transitioned at one point. I mean, we were, I was thinking, God, what do I need to do? Like, something’s missing. I thought maybe I needed a hobby. So I started to, you know, I joined a choir, and I started writing, and I started doing all these things, and that’s what I kind of realized. It’s, it’s not that I need a hobby, it’s that I’m not doing what I’m supposed to be doing. And we had, even, you know, started working with women, and I had been running women’s seminars, which were really fun, and he had sort of done more of, like, more of the back end stuff, and I was able to talk to women and all of those things. But even that wasn’t enough. And so on the one hand, he wasn’t thrilled, and on another, he totally understood that I’m here to do something different, you know, and I you, I really believe that you have to do what makes your heart sing in this in this lifetime, you know? So it was a transition. But he, he’s my husband’s a rock. I’m very lucky. He’s, he’s, he’s always right there, backing me up. So I was lucky,
 
Michael Hingson ** 39:37
and he’s coping with it well these days, I assume
 
Abby Havermann ** 39:40
he is, oh yeah, now, yeah. And what we built together, you know, he’s able to have the business and the life that that he loves as well. I mean, he’s, he was doing it long before me, and, you know, we’ll do it long after. So how
 
Michael Hingson ** 39:56
long ago was it that you left the financial. Environment and started what you’re doing
 
Abby Havermann ** 40:02
now, that was in 2018 Okay, so I started in psychotherapy in 97 and then I started in the financial industry in 2007 ish, and then left in 2018
 
Michael Hingson ** 40:17
well, but I bet, if you really think about it. And probably you have, you could point out things that you learned during your time in the financial world that that help you today.
 
Abby Havermann ** 40:27
Oh, of course. I mean, yeah, I mean, right, the whole there was no mistake, right? And I that was, there was lots of gifts that came out of that for me, right? Not, you know, not to mention that I really understand the pressures, the unique pressures of that industry and what people are dealing with, and that informs the work that I do now. But also, even just the self discovery of like, wow, you know it? I didn’t need a hobby. I wasn’t listening to myself. I was out of alignment? Yeah, no, and that’s okay too, because you know what? Doing something for the family, doing something for the people that that I worked with, and being of service in that way was also a gift, you know? So, no regrets for sure,
 
Michael Hingson ** 41:18
no. And I think that’s really the issue you’re you’re comfortable with what you’re doing, and so you shouldn’t have to have regrets. And again, you learned a lot, and you recognize that, and that’s the most important thing.
 
Abby Havermann ** 41:33
Yeah, I think having a perspective in life, that everything is truly happening as it should is is important, and if nothing else, really helps you get through a lot easier, right? Because lots of people find themselves in situations, you know, whether it’s a divorce, you know, which I had that too, or, you know, things happen that people will beat themselves up about and just feel terrible. How can I do that? And why did this happen? And all of these things, and it’s it, it you don’t have to have an answer to that. It just did happen. Yeah, right, so, and, and what, what is the opportunity for you in moving through that? Yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 42:14
well, I’ve never experienced divorce directly. My brother went through one, and I’m not under the circumstances, we weren’t too surprised. But, you know, he was where he was and all that. But my wife and I were married for 40 years, and as I mentioned, she passed away. And so now, as I tell people, I have to be a good kid, because I know that somewhere she’s monitoring, and if I misbehave, I’m going to hear about it. It’s as simple
 
Abby Havermann ** 42:42
as that. And do you? Do you? Do you hear from her? Um,
 
Michael Hingson ** 42:46
oh, I hear from her, but I haven’t heard anything negative, so I guess I’m behaving.
 
42:51
Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 42:54
yeah. I mean, she’s she’s here, she’s monitoring, and, yeah, that’s perfectly fine.
 
Abby Havermann ** 43:00
I always love to hear stories of that, you know, particularly for people who’ve been married a long time, like, what ways the their person shows up, you know, how you know they’re here? Because so many people, you know, when I grew up, my grandmother used to say Dead is dead, and it was absolutely terrifying to believe like that was the end, you know. And so I love hearing people talk about, you know, where, where they, where they feel they, where they, where they feel their loved ones, you know, how they know that they’re there? About
 
Michael Hingson ** 43:33
six months after she passed, I remember waking up in the middle of the night because someone or something had taken a hold of my hand as an example. And it wasn’t the cat, and as soon as I woke up, then it was gone. But I know it was there, so, yeah, she’s she’s monitoring. It’s okay. Yeah, I’m good with that. Now, along the way, you delivered a TED talk. How long ago was that?
 
Abby Havermann ** 43:58
Oh, that was in 2022,
 
Michael Hingson ** 44:01
okay, so, so the pandemic had started to lift and all that. What if you would tell me about the the TED talk, and what that was all about, and and so on.
 
Abby Havermann ** 44:10
Yeah, well, the TED talk really came about. It’s something I think I’ve wanted to do for a long time, but it came about actually as a result of my divorce and what I went through during that time, and that was really when I had this kind of come to Jesus, that I realized that the things that had happened in my life that I was not in favor of were directly related to a self betrayal. In other words, it wasn’t anyone else’s fault that these things happened to me or that I went through them. It was that I consistently, as we said in the beginning, did not go inside, did not listen to my inner voice, betrayed myself in any number of ways by, you know, deferring to what other people thought or making. Decisions, because I didn’t think I was worthy of something else, or whatever it was. And it was like, wow, it hit me in the face. It was sort of like there was nowhere else for me to go but jail. Like, literally, I was already in prison because I was not listening to myself at all. And so I had that experience, and then years later, I actually was at a an assembly for my son, who was like, 10 years later, was then in middle school, and they were doing an assembly on sexting for middle school kids, because there was this pandemic and epidemic of kids sexting. And at the time in Colorado, that was a class three felony, and there was really nothing they could do to get it off somebody’s record. So they were doing an Internet safety and I was listening to the cop up there talking about what was happening, and he said something that, you know, just really shook me, which was that, you know the he would ask the boys, why do you why do you make them send Why do you pressure these girls into sending pictures? And the boys would say, well, because I wanted to see a picture of her naked. And then they would ask the girls, why? Why are you sending it? And the girls would always say, and I knew exactly what he was going to say. They they said, because I wanted him to love me. And it really brought me back to all the self betrayals I had had as a young a young woman. And, and I thought, my God, nothing has changed. I mean, that was in 2003 right? I was born in 1970 so I just thought, wow, we are still doing the same thing over and over again. And, and it really spurred me to want to tell that story and spread this word, that we have the ability to get out of our own ways, that we can. We don’t need, we don’t need new legislation, and not that, I’m not that it’s not great, and not that we shouldn’t have it, but we don’t need other people to empower us. We need to empower ourselves. And so that was kind of what my what my TED talk was about.
 
Michael Hingson ** 47:09
Um, so the title of your talk was, women’s liberation is an inside job. Interesting title,
 
Abby Havermann ** 47:14
yeah, well, and that’s literally the truth, right? Like, let you know if you think of like, the biggest extremes of this, of course, are people like Viktor Frankl, you know, who you know talks about how he was in the concentration camps. And you know Man’s Search for Meaning, you know how he was liberated, even in the most you know, horrific circumstances. And I really believe that liberation is an inside job for all of us. That is not just for women, but for everyone. It’s to me doing a TED talk was great. It was a bucket list thing. I’m so happy I did it. But what makes me feel the most proud of myself is when I overcome some part of myself. That is what makes me feel liberated when something goes wrong in my inner in my external world and my inner world doesn’t go crazy, I’m like, oh my god, that is freedom. When something happens in my external world and I lose it or I go into a funk, that’s prison. To me. Liberation is being able to be in ease and flow, no matter what is happening in our outer world, and no matter who is irritating us, or what life circumstances plopped in my lap. Yeah, that’s kind of how I mean that, yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 48:36
well, and I gather that the that the talk went well and was well received, I assume,
 
Abby Havermann ** 48:44
yeah, I mean, I think that it, they forced some edits on it, which I understand in hindsight. I wish I had known, but I would could have told the story differently. But no, it was. It was very well received. And I often hear from people who tell me that they that they shared it widely, and it was impactful. So, but you know, if you, if you unpack just one, one other person, you know, like, it’s worth it. Yeah, worth it. So it didn’t go viral. You know, it didn’t, it wasn’t as big as, you know, many TED talks are, but that’s okay, you know, people came up to me after and said, You know, I’m the person you needed to talk to. And I was like, All right, now my job’s done. Yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 49:27
you You did. You did well, or, as I like to say, you done good. And, yeah, and that’s what’s important. You talk about the dark night of the soul. What is that? Well, the
 
Abby Havermann ** 49:39
dark night of the soul is, you know, that come to Jesus moment. And I always say, you know, when I write in my newsletters, I often write about, you know, come to Jesus moments and dark nights of soul. And I always say, you know, if you haven’t had one of these, and then you’re probably not for me, because, you know, or I’m probably not for you. Is really how that is, because it’s the dark night of the soul. Is. Is when you really come face to face with yourself, and you can no longer, you know, blame other people. You can no longer not change. You realize that something’s happening and it’s requiring you to be a different person, and you see something in yourself that maybe you don’t like, you know, or you see something that you realize you can’t have. It’s not going to work. It’s not going to be the way you keep trying to make it be. And you have to come up against yourself and make some really hard decisions and some hard choices and see things in yourself that maybe you don’t want to see, you don’t want to know about. You’d rather think about yourself in a different way. Yeah, the dark night. Have you had one? I’m
 
Michael Hingson ** 50:44
not thinking of one right off, but I am sure I have,
 
Abby Havermann ** 50:47
yeah, yeah.
 
Michael Hingson ** 50:51
I think that we all have, yeah. Actually, I can. Can think of some where I was behaving in particular ways. And sometimes it’s I learn about it because somebody comes along and said, You’re a dirt bag, or you misbehaved, or the way you’re treating people, and I’ve had to think about that. But I think for me, although I didn’t notice it until somebody mentioned it, when it occurs and somebody says something, my immediate reaction is to think about that and to internalize it, and to go back and look at, well, what, what is the issue? And sometimes I have realized that it wasn’t me and somebody’s being manipulative, but sometimes it is me, and it is important to be able to get introspective and think about what is occurring and and look at what’s going on and what part of it is you, and what part of it is not you,
 
Abby Havermann ** 51:49
yeah. And I think it’s, you know? I mean, it’s so impossible to really, truly know ourselves and have a really accurate picture of ourselves. We all have a picture of ourselves, but it’s, it’s never really accurate, because of the way our brains are wired and so continuing to be open and curious like that, I think is is so important. And we, you know, you come to your own truth, right? But I think truth is so important to be truthful to yourself, whether it’s whether you’re throwing yourself under the bus that’s not truthful. You know, whether you’re saying, Oh, I suck at this, or whatever I made, you know what? That’s not truthful, or whether you’re tooting your own horn, and that’s not entirely truthful. No, you know. It’s a you know, to me, like self introspection, like that’s that is where it’s at. That, to me, is the most fascinating and the quickest road to success and growth you can possibly have. It’s not, it’s not what’s happening externally. It’s, it’s, how are you actualizing yourself within? Yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 52:58
and that’s why it gets back to really learning how to step back and look at situations and looking at all aspects of it to make a final decision about, what do I need to do, if anything, to address the issue, whatever it may be,
 
Abby Havermann ** 53:15
yeah, and I think, you know, there’s value in that. Of course there is, but a lot of times that’s a that’s an analysis, and a lot of times we need to step away from the analysis, and we need to just with it and observe it and just be curious about it. Oh, exactly, and be okay with what is. And that’s sometimes when the biggest answers come to us. I think that’s why, you know they say that the right brain processes 800 times faster than the left brain, because the left brain is worried. What do I need to do differently? How do I need to analysis, analysis, analysis. Whereas when you can settle your brain and body down, whether it’s through a meditation or a heart math practice or a Positive Intelligence practice or what, whatever it is, sometimes the answer is right there it like drops in, you know, just the way you had, you felt your wife hold your hand, right, you know. And it just happened so much faster than all of the thinking and the planning and the spreadsheets and the that you that we put ourselves through trying to come up with the quote right answer,
 
Michael Hingson ** 54:21
yeah. And I don’t want to make it really clear, I’m not necessarily advocating just analysis, and I’m not analysis, though, what I think analysis can do is lead to you opening up and dealing with the rest of the issues. So analysis may be a starting point, but it’s not the end all solution,
 
Abby Havermann ** 54:43
yeah, and it, and we need to be careful about getting stuck in it, yeah? Oh, absolutely stuck in that place of over, you know, going over and over that,
 
Michael Hingson ** 54:53
because that takes us right back to where we were before. Well, right? Because
 
Abby Havermann ** 54:56
Einstein said, you know, you can’t solve a problem from the same level. Level of mind that created it, right?
 
Michael Hingson ** 55:03
Yeah. And so you can go back and look at, well, what what happened? What is it the people are saying and all that, but you’ve got to go further than that. And so it, it is emotional as well as anything else, which is probably why we haven’t met Vulcans like Mr. Spock yet.
 
Abby Havermann ** 55:23
Well, yeah, I mean, and that’s the thing, right? It’s like people are emotional beings, right? So we think that we need to work things out logically and everything, but emotions are not logical, and so much of life and business is about relationships, right?
 
Michael Hingson ** 55:38
But the but the one thing that we can do, though, is that it gets back to introspection in all forms. We do need to learn how to step back and allow ourselves to listen to that inner voice to come up with the best solution, because that’s where the best solution will always be.
 
Abby Havermann ** 55:59
Yeah, yeah. So true. And so many people doubt it. So many people doubt that it’s inside them. You know, they’ll come and be like, What do you think? What do you think? And I always say it’s, I could tell you what I think, but you’ll end up working with me far longer than you need to, because it’s not what you think. So let’s, let’s do some let’s dive in and find out what your inner wisdom is telling you, because that’s the only way you’re going to rest, that’s the only way you’re going to know for certain, right, the right thing to do, because you feel it in your bones.
 
Michael Hingson ** 56:30
How do people who think less of themselves or don’t have a lot of self worth? How can you help them move forward to becoming more confident, and I mean that in a positive way, as opposed to just developing an ego, and I’m great, and that’s all there is to it. But how do you get people, or how do you help move people from a lack of self worth to self confidence? Yeah,
 
Abby Havermann ** 56:52
I mean, I think that self worth is, like one of the biggest, if not the biggest, problem that we have. And I do think there are a handful of people, I think you might be one of them that just has an inner constitution that, you know, is just a really lucky one. My son is one of them too. You know, he has this disability, and I swear to God, I’ve never seen a kid, you know, just kind of bounce back, you know, like he’s here to be humbled. You know, it’s not, it’s not, you know, his constitution is just built that way. But I think for the vast majority of people, we’re dealing with imposter syndrome. We’re dealing with self worth issues. And oftentimes people say, Well, I don’t have a worthiness issue because they’re they have a great life, they have a great family, they have a great business. They and they can’t they like themselves. They can’t really relate to feeling a worthiness issue. But when you dial down and really talk to them about, you know, what are their fears, or what’s getting in their way, or what’s happening, it all comes back to this question of, you know, am I enough and trying to prove themselves and whatnot. And so one of my taglines is, I say, you know, stop, it’s time to stop proving your worth and start owning your worth. Because your worth is there. It’s always there. Your your validity is always there. The only thing that happened is you turned your gaze away from it. You started looking for it outside of yourself and instead of inside of yourself, and so it’s, it’s a harder question to answer, because it’s, it’s an evolution. It’s not, you know, well, I just need to say, you know, 10 affirmations every day, and then I’m going to wake up more confident the next day, right? It has to do with acknowledging and being able to catch those if I was going to use Positive Intelligence language, those saboteurs that you know, for example, the hyper achiever Salvatore that wants to tell you that you’re worth you’re only as worthy as your last achievement. You know it’s being able to catch that and being able to say, Wait a minute. Let me once again, sit you down and go back into who I am at the core of me, what is my essence and and aligning with the truth of who we are, which is we are not our body, we are not our mind, we we’re much, much more than that. So there’s a lot of different practices that we go, that I go through with people, but I do think that part of it is acknowledging that we’re all somewhere along the same journey. And so much of the time it’s just almost all the time, it’s like one ego is talking to another ego. I’m I’m telling you, whatever I’m telling you. From my ego, you’re telling me what you’re telling me from your ego, very rarely are people actually, truly talking from their hearts. Part of developing confidence, I think, is an ability to align with your authentic self, where you’re not putting yourself. Below anybody else. You’re not putting yourself above anybody else. You’re just aligning with what is real for you and putting yourself out there in that way and getting comfortable with that. And we can make decisions from that place. We feel more confident about our decisions. We never regret a decision that happened truly intuitively, right,
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:00:21
right? Well, you’ve, you’ve worked with a lot of clients, and I’ve had some successes. I’d love to hear maybe a success story where you really made a difference, or you helped someone make their own difference.
 
Abby Havermann ** 1:00:39
Yeah. I mean, I think that, let’s see, you know, I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of different ways I could, I could go with that. You know, sometimes what happens when people can have a shift is everything changes. So I had a client who was going she almost didn’t come to our call because she was just covered in shame about something that was happening in her business. And we were able to work on it, not only in that introductory call, but throughout the ensuing year where everything changed for her business. So when I used to ask her, you know, listen, what, what do you what do you want? What is it? Well, I want to be the best. Well, what does that mean? I want to be the best, right? I want to be the best. You know. Again, that goes back to this dysregulated nervous system, that’s right, if I’m best, then I’ll feel better. Then I’ll feel better, right? And after a course of working together and working with her team and really getting her to get in touch with the incredible work that her company does from a real perspective, not where she’s just telling herself it or patting herself on the back, but really beginning to see what they’re doing, and a close attention to her, watching her inner world. She came up with the most beautiful business statement that I think I had ever heard, and couldn’t even really remember the time, where she said, Yeah, I wanted to be the best. It wasn’t about that, you know? It’s about, I want to make a difference. This is what our team is doing. This is what I’m about in the world. This is what’s important to me. And as a result, you know, made some incredible changes, money, you know, pouring in and working a lot on that automatic fear that you know financial ruin is on the other side of the wall, which is just a completely internal fear, and being able to release that so that you release the energetic field around you that’s holding those circumstances in place, and having a tighter team, a more collaborative team and more income than than, you know, anything she was thinking of when we first began.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:11
That’s cool and and presumably she’s doing better now than she used to.
 
Abby Havermann ** 1:03:17
Oh, my God yes, yeah, yeah. And still working and still working on ourself, right? I like to work with people who understand. And this was one of the things that’s very funny I get, I get a lot of people who tell me this, you know, who want me just to tell them what. Just tell me what to do. I’ll do it, and then everything will be fine. Yeah, well, yeah, often have people come to me, just tell me what to do, and I’ll do it. Everything will be fine. And, you know, and realizing that there is no there, there, there is no this is a journey. You know, this, this is a journey. And some people come and they do a small amount of work, and they’re, they’re good, they’re that’s where they needed to be. And then some people have larger questions, you know, that they’re really working out about themselves. They have larger things that, things that they’re reaching for, that they want to evolve to, and that’s more of an ongoing process, right? Like, I’ll never, I will never stop evolving. I will never stop being curious. I will always be working on myself in in one way or another, and with, with one person or another, you know? So, yeah, yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:04:24
that’s and that’s a good thing. Well, so what is the name of your business?
 
Abby Havermann ** 1:04:29
Well, so my website is Abby havermann.com Okay, and people that are looking to do works with teams and whatnot. They can go to corporate dot Abby haverman.com
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:04:40
have Herman is h, a V, E, R, M, a n, n2, N’s M, a n, m, a n, n, and Abby is a b, b, y, yep. A b, b,
 
Abby Havermann ** 1:04:48
y, y, yup. And there’s at at corporate. Dot Abby haverman.com for companies, or let’s connect. Dot. Abby haverman.com for individuals. You can take. Take a saboteur assessment that was created by Positive Intelligence and learn what your Saboteurs are, and have an opportunity to dive a little deeper and find out what’s in your way and what you need to unlearn to move move past it
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:05:16
cool. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to be here with us and spend all this hour plus, I think you’ve offered a lot of really great insights, and I value what you’ve what you’ve brought to us. And as I love to say, if I’m not learning at least as much as other people, I’m not doing my job right. And I hope I’ve learned a lot today, and I’m going to think about it as well and probably learn more from it, but I really appreciate you taking the time to do it, and I want to thank everyone listening and watching, if you are doing this on YouTube, we really value you being here. I hope that you’ve enjoyed this time with Abby. We’d love to hear from you. Get your thoughts. You are welcome to email me. Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, love to get your thoughts and wherever you’re listening to us. We would really appreciate a five star rating from you, and also for all of you listening and watching and Abby, you as well. If you know of anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we’d love you to introduce us. We’re always looking for more people and more interesting stories to tell. So with all of that, I appreciate you all being here, and Abby, you being here. Oh, and one last thing, you are also welcome to go to. Michael hingson, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, where you can see all of the episodes of unstoppable mindset. And again, that’s another place to make comments. But Abby, I want to thank you again for being here. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks so much, Michael, thanks for having me.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:07:01
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.