Episode 309 – Unstoppable Misophonia Advocate with Cris Edwards

Cris Edwards is a person who experiences a disability known as Misophonia. What is it? Cris is best at explaining. However, in part, this condition causes people who have it to react to sounds and other stimuli most of us take for granted and can ignore. As with many of our guests, I met Cris through our own Sheldon Lewis. By the way, because of Sheldon, Cris and his nonprofit use accessiBe. However, I get ahead of myself.
 
Cris went through school and, in fact life with manifestations of Misophonia. As he tells us, he also has ADHD. Many people with misophonia do exhibit other conditions as well. As Cris explains, until fairly recently this condition was not even recognized nor taken seriously. Cris tells us how he lived his life with this condition and how today he is dealing with it somewhat better than before.
 
In 2021 Cris founded soQuiet, a 501C3 corporation to help those with Misophonia. We will get to learn how even AI today is helping people deal with this issue.
 
Cris and I talk a lot about not only Misophonia, but how people can better exercise their minds to learn how better to conduct introspection and exercise their brains to better take care of their whole world. I hope you like what Cris has to say. Lots to think about here.
 
 
 
About the Guest:
 
Cris Edwards, MFA CPS, is the founder of soQuiet, a 501[c]3 tax-exempt nonprofit organization dedicated to providing free and accessible advocacy, resources, and support for all people whose lives are affected by misophonia, a multi-sensory sensitivity disorder. 
 
Cris has struggled with what we now know as misophonia for over 40 years, since way back in the early 1980s, decades before there was any recognition, or even a name, for this condition. Years later, when connecting the dots in his life looking backwards, Cris can see just how much misophonia had an impact on his life, from affecting his schooling to causing barriers to employment and more. 
 
Cris was able to complete college and grad school, earning a Master of Fine Arts in Directing. But, he always also wanted to help people to live better lives with a disorder like misophonia.
 
During the COVID pandemic, since there was no live theatre happening for an unknown amount of time, Cris decided to start a nonprofit which focused on misophonia and that worked to be accessible to all and to approach advocacy from the viewpoint of someone with lived experience of struggling with misophonia. soQuiet was born and has grown quickly in the four-ish years of its existence.
 
soQuiet has provided many "firsts" to the misophonia community, sometimes called the misosphere. Cris and the soQuiet team launched the first misophonia student research grant program, the first comprehensive peer support program for misophonia, and has mailed thousands of free misophonia information cards to six continents at no charge, among many other successes.
 
Cris is also active in the recovery community having gotten sober in 2017. He is a Certified Peer Specialist [CPS] as well as an occasional theatre director and designer. Cris lives with his wife, Michelle, and two cats in St. Louis, Missouri.
 
 
Ways to connect with Cris:
 
Website: soQuiet.org
On all major social sites [Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc.] under the username: soquietorg
 
About the Host:
 
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
 
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
 
https://michaelhingson.com
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https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/
 
accessiBe Links
https://accessibe.com/
https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe
https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/
 
https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/
 
 
 
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Transcription Notes:
 
Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
 
Michael Hingson ** 01:35
We appreciate it. Today we are going to have the opportunity to chat with Cris Edwards and Cris, among other things, has formed a nonprofit called so quiet. And I think there’s a fascinating story behind that. And basically he deals with a lot of people who happen to have something called misophonia, which I’m not overly familiar with, and I’ll bet most of you aren’t, but Cris, clearly, because he found it so quiet, is an expert. And so there you are, Cris. Now you’re stuck with it. Well, I want to know now. There you go, Cris. Cris is in St Louis, Missouri. We’re out here in California, so we’re little ways apart. But isn’t science a wonderful thing? But Chris, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. I really appreciate you being here, and we’re looking forward to having a great chat. Thank you so much, Michael, it’s a pleasure to be here. I met Cris through Sheldon Lewis at accessibe. Now you all have heard of Sheldon before. He’s nonprofit partner manager at accessibe, and worked with a lot of organizations like Cris’ and he said, Cris, you ought to go on this here podcast. And Chris, I guess, decided that we were probably worth going on. So here we are. Well, why don’t we start Chris, why don’t you tell us a little bit about kind of the early Chris growing up and some of that stuff.
 
Cris Edwards ** 02:59
Absolutely. Thank you. Well, I just turned 50 last week, so I don’t feel like I’m 50, but yeah, I was born in 1974 I grew up in San Antonio, Texas, and, you know, I A lot of times we can connect the dots looking backwards, but at the time, in the 70s and the 80s, there really wasn’t as much awareness and cognizance and attention paid to things like neurodiversity and invisible disabilities and different disorders and things. There was a whole different social viewpoint to that. But yeah, growing up, I always had noticed a few things I felt a little different from other people, but I did well. As far as the classes, I was capable of doing everything quite well, but was always distracted, and oftentimes found myself responding to things in a way that was different than the way other people responded to the sensory input around them. So we’ll get more into how I realized that that is a thing later, but managed to go through school.
 
Michael Hingson ** 04:10
What’s that? Is that sort of like ADHD? Well, that’s a good point.
 
Cris Edwards ** 04:14
I actually do have ADHD, but that is that is a separate disorder from misophonia. Yeah. What’s interesting? Thank you for asking that misophonia often co occurs with other conditions like that, other mental health conditions like ADHD, OCD. There’s not one of those that sticks out. Misophonia is considered a separate unique condition disorder. It can occur on its own, but we know through research that it’s it commonly co occurs with other things. So as I got older,
 
Michael Hingson ** 04:43
what’s that I say? Anyway, go ahead. Anyway. Yeah. So
 
Cris Edwards ** 04:48
I actually, you know, I got through school, actually ended up going to college and went to grad school. I studied theater and got a master’s of fine arts and directing. But where’d you go? Well, for undergraduate school, I. Went to a little University called Tarleton State University. It’s about an hour west of Fort Worth Texas. It’s actually an agricultural college that happened to have a theater department that was pretty good. And then I went to Texas Tech out in the desert of Lubbock for grad school. But I had always, you know, early on, I can remember as far back as fourth grade, or maybe even earlier than that. Nobody has any record of this. We’re just going off of my my flawed memory. I remember that the sensory input I got around me, I felt like I responded to differently than other people. For example, if I was in a class, I can remember trying to listen to a teacher teach, or trying to take a test, and if there were particular things going on in the classroom, I could not focus on the lesson, and I could not focus on the test or whatever, because I was so distracted, like by particular motions or particular sounds. And I learned later on, much later in my adult life that they had created a term for this. It wasn’t just that I was particular about sounds, that it’s an actual disorder called misophonia. And so when I found out the word probably around 2007 I found out that this particular term was created in 2001 so nobody had any concept of of this existence while I was in school. But in general, misophonia is a largely auditory but in fact, multi sensory aversion disorder. If you ever hear of somebody who says something like, I can’t if you don’t stop smacking your chewing gum, I’m gonna have to leave like it makes me anxious and frustrated more than is normal. Nobody likes the sound of smacking gum, but if it gets to a point where you literally cannot be around that sound, and it gives you this very accentuated irritation, frustration, like a need to just get away from that sound in a way that isn’t normal. That’s that’s kind of a hallmark of misophonia. Misophonia can also have a visual element. So seeing somebody doing something, like, if I see somebody chewing gum, but I can’t hear them, that actually brings about that same reaction. And it’s not a volunteer, it’s not a voluntary reaction. There’s also a similar kind of sibling disorder called miso Kinesia, and it is when people have a similar response, again, an involuntary physiological response to visual motions. So if I was in class looking back and somebody was shaking their feet or twirling their hair, which are very normal things for people to do when they’re anxious. Taking a test, I couldn’t concentrate that motion, just my brain focuses on that motion immediately, and I can’t, I literally cannot focus on anything else, and it makes me very upset. So that’s that’s kind of a misophonia in a nutshell. You know, I if I was in a class and somebody had a bag of chips, the crinkling plastic and the sound of somebody eating chips would would affect me in a way that is very abnormal. So that was misophonia. And when I found out that this word existed, it explained a lot of the issues that I had growing up. You know, I know that that those my inability to to participate fully in classes affected my grades and so forth, and so since then, kind of during the pandemic, when everything was shut down. I had been working in the theater industry here in St Louis, and there was no theater happening for a couple of years. We didn’t know for how long, so I decided to do something that was different than I started this organization to help people understand this really difficult to understand, sensory disorder, and there’s been a lot of research happening on it, we know that it’s actually very prevalent in society. There’s been a number of prevalent studies that show that misophonia is actually quite common. As many as one in five people have the symptoms, and roughly about 5% of the population has it to a degree to where it impacts their life, to it from a moderate to severe amount. And so it can be disabling. I’ve worked with people who isolate themselves. And, you know, there’s sounds and and visual things in the world that they they try to avoid, and and we end up avoiding things as a way of coping becomes very isolating. So we’ve worked with people who, even though they live in the same house as a parent, that maybe is activates that for them, they don’t talk to their to their family, because it’s so uncomfortable the sound of a person’s voice. Or the way that they move is so uncomfortable that they stay in their room and and just text their family that’s in the same house, it can be very isolating and frustrating. So I kind of went on a bunch of different tangents there answering your question, but hopefully that makes some sense, and I’m happy to explain any of it more. So
 
Michael Hingson ** 10:17
what did you do as you were growing up and so on, to to deal with. I mean, you obviously did something that allowed you to be successful at going to school, whether your grades were affected or or not. You still did make it through and all that. What did you do to to deal with all of it? That’s a great question of understanding yet, of what it really was to have misophonia. Fantastic
 
Cris Edwards ** 10:40
question. Yeah, looking back, there were things that I would try to do, but I didn’t have the awareness and I didn’t have the words to explain to other people what I was dealing with. Because if I just tell people, if they don’t know what it is, I can’t the sound of the crinkling chip bag is driving me so crazy, it sounds crazy before we knew what it was, but, you know, a lot of it was just suffering and silence. I know it affected my mental health. It’s sort of like I could try to compare it to if you’re having an anxiety attack or even a panic attack, but you try to hide it, and that, you know an anxiety attack or something is not something you can control. They just come on sometimes. And if you were to try to hide that and and quell it so that people don’t notice what you’re going through, that’s a little like what it’s like to sort of suffer in silence and act like everything is normal, when internally, I’m just like wanting to leave the situation, because it’s such an uncomfortable feeling being around totally normal sounds that are not a threat in any way.
 
Michael Hingson ** 11:52
So you kind of just did suffer in silence. And yeah, I guess the best thing to say is coped, if you will, coped,
 
Cris Edwards ** 11:59
and I would do things improvisationally to try to help. Looking back, I probably could have, if I’d thought about it, carried foam earplugs with me, which I do now, and worn those in class to kind of filter out some sounds. But I was talking to some other people recently who have misophonia in one of our peer support groups. And I would do little things like I would try to if you could rest your elbows on on your school desk, and put your hand your put your chin in your the palm of your hands together, you can kind of secretly put your fingers in your ears in that pose, but look like you’re still paying attention. Yeah. So I would do things like that to where it looks like I’m still participating, but I’m actually blocking out some of the sound by secretly putting my fingers in my ears to get to the class and just little things like that I would do to try to get by. But
 
Michael Hingson ** 12:53
as you matured and got older and so on, did any of the symptoms mitigate or go away, or is it still as prevalent for you as it ever was? That’s
 
Cris Edwards ** 13:04
a great question. My own experience has been a little bit of both. We don’t have any research. We just have anecdotal stories on whether misophonia gets better with age or gets worse with age or not any different and people tell you different things. I think mine’s been a little bit of both, in that there were things that didn’t that used to not activate that misophonic reaction, that that anxiety and frustration and and panic that it brings about that do now. So for one example, is not everybody. It has that misophonic reaction activated by Pet Sounds. And that was never a problem for me until maybe about 10 years ago, where some noises that animals make would bring about that reaction. For example, we were talking about our cats right at the before we started recording today, and one of my cats is what I call a loud bather. You know, when she’s bathing herself, the that very accentuated licking sound causes that, that involuntary reaction. So I, I have to kind of put her in the other room and she doesn’t understand it. But so that’s something that I have acquired. I’ve, actually acquired new we call them triggers. I try to avoid calling them triggers, because I think that term is kind of overused, so it doesn’t even have any meaning anymore, but, but at the same time, you know, with with age and with introspection, I’ve learned coping skills. I’ve learned to deal with this. It is a part of my life, just like anybody with any kind of disability does their best to to accept some of the things that are going to be more difficult or different for us, and work on coping with the things that we can and changing the things we can through advocacy or accommodations or whatever. And so in a way, I’ve gotten better at dealing with it. I. Communicate about it very much more effectively now that I know the term for this thing, and you can Google it, and there is a definition, and there is research on it which didn’t exist at all when I was a child, so I’ve gotten better at coping with it, even though I think my actual experience of it maybe has gotten a little bit worse. So who knows.
 
Michael Hingson ** 15:21
Yeah, it’s yeah, it’s something that only time is going to really give you the opportunity to do exactly how it goes and so on. But what did you do after college? So what did college lead you to?
 
Cris Edwards ** 15:34
Well, that’s a great question. I was always active in the theater, but the theater industry is kind of difficult. It’s a lot of with a normal job, typically you have some job security, so maybe you work there and you know that next month you’ll still have your job unless things go wrong in theater. A lot of times you’re hired on by production. So you might work for a month or two on a particular production of a particular play, and then when that’s done, you’re back to looking for work again. And so for for job security, I sort of went, after grad school, into the tech industry, and so I worked for a number of small tech startups in the early 2000s I worked at Apple for a while and did kind of a mishmash of things that had some benefits and some job security that the theater world didn’t have, and and I worked in the theater more as kind of a after school extracurricular kind of capacity. So, yeah, it looking back, I did that, but it was still a struggle. I didn’t know the word for this thing, and I knew that either other people were much better at dealing with being bothered by these sounds, or other people were not as bothered by sounds and and visual stimuli as I was. And so the 20 years ago, the idea of an open office. Was a big thing in startups, you know, you have just a big open office where everybody works, and that is a nightmare for people with misophonia and miso keynesia. And so I just struggled. It was just suffering in silence, like I said, doing my best to block out sounds when I needed or put up Visual barriers in the offices I worked in to to block out visual movements that might be very distracting and and uncomfortable, but I probably around 2007 I found out that there’s a word for this thing and and slowly, over the years, I realized that it’s a it’s not just a made up term that somebody on the internet came up with. It’s an actual medical term that was invented by audiologists and and there was a research beginning on it roughly 10 years ago. So yeah, when I look back, I just kind of had a mishmash of things that I have done professionally since then. And I started this organization because I I wanted people to know that they can ask for accommodations, that they can talk about this with the confidence that it is a real thing, but it is supported by science, and there are ways of getting through life with it. There’s actually an entire department at Duke University dedicated to studying misophonia as the Duke center for misophonia and emotion regulation. So all those kind of things help validate that this is a just a strange, sensory based disorder. Not to get too long winded about it, at the beginning, I had mentioned that we could oftentimes connect the dots looking backwards. And, you know, I’m pretty open about sort of my experiences with things, just because I want other people to realize that they’re not alone and that there are certain pitfalls that can happen and and it’s not unusual. So when I look back, you know, in in my college years, I found that, as a lot of college students do, alcohol was something that helped me be more social with misophonia and my ADD and I’m kind of an introvert anyway, even though I can play an extrovert on TV, I was, I was, I was kind of a hermit in college and and theater is a very social right industry, and so people bugged me a lot about it, and I found that alcohol helped calm my senses, that I could be around other people and be in misophonically triggering situations, which I didn’t know about at the time, and be more social. And so over the years, the alcohol became a crutch, and it became a much bigger problem than than my misophonia was, and I didn’t realize it at the time, so that sort of took over my life, and I got sober about seven years ago, and really had to assess how I can get by in life with my sensory issues and needs without numbing my senses and causing a lot of problems in my life. If that that caused so I say that just so people know, because I hear other people who sort of self medicate, it’s a understandable thing to do, but it really had a huge impact on my life. And I think there are better ways of dealing with invisible conditions than self medicating. So I just want people to know that that is also a part of my story that happened over the years, and I don’t think it’s unusual.
 
Michael Hingson ** 20:28
Well, tell me a little bit more about, well, about all of that, in terms of dealing with it and so on, and what, what you’ve evolved into doing.
 
Cris Edwards ** 20:37
It’s a great question. So I, I guess since getting sober is a lot of things have happened. The pandemic happened, and, you know, I think I’ve, I’ve thrived. A lot of people find it interesting to know that, for example, I got married, and I know that’s not really a big deal. That’s a very common thing that a lot of people do, but it’s important for a big deal for you. Well, it’s a big deal for me, sure, but when we work with parents who have children with misophonia and other conditions, they really worry about their children, like, what kind of future will they have? You know, are they going to struggle with finding employment and finding friends and being in relationships and and doing typical things? And so when I they find out not that I was trying to be encouraging everything, but when they find out that I actually did get through grad school and got a master’s degree, and I have gotten married with this misophonia, they’re relieved to hear that it’s possible to do fairly typical things. It may not be as easy. So yeah, that’s that’s kind of what I’ve done since getting so bright. I finally got married at the age of 45 we moved to St Louis, where my wife has a very good job in the library system, and started a very successful nonprofit, and have remained very active in the recovery community. All of these things are things that I’ve worked hard to do and and I wouldn’t have been able to do if I was still sort of stuck in my self pity, self misery, self medicating phase of my life. I’m glad that’s over with, but yeah, I feel like I’m playing catch up on life the last few years. But
 
Michael Hingson ** 22:23
on the other hand, you’re doing that, and part of it is, and is that you’re, you’ve, you’ve discovered a lot about you, and yeah, you you had alcohol and so on, but you’ve gotten over that, and you’ve made some mental commitments that certainly have to be helping with you being able to address the issue of misophonia?
 
Cris Edwards ** 22:42
Yeah, that’s true. I would, I would think that pretty much anybody who has any kind of disorder or condition or disease that impacts your life, especially if it’s disabling in any way you know, or affects your ability to do typical things in a typical way that that your average person would. You know, you have to do a lot of introspection. You have to be really creative with coping in life and coming up with unique solutions to get by. And that requires a certain amount of resourcefulness and and introspection and and intelligence. And so, you know, I I’ve been very fortunate to meet some wonderful people with misophonia. Through the misophonia community that is actually huge. People are finding out that they are a part of it, and they didn’t even know it every day, and they’re contacting us. And just wonderful people who are bright and talented, and I’m glad to be a part of this unique community that we find ourselves in. I think it’s a big part of it too, just the validation that we get and the ability to share our experiences and our frustrations and successes and stuff. Yeah, yeah.
 
Michael Hingson ** 23:56
Well, introspection is very important. Not nearly enough. Do we use it? And do we teach children in each other to use the whole concept of introspection to deal with things I wrote a book was published in August of 2024 called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith, and one of the main things that we talked about right from the beginning of the book, it’s the book is all about helping people learn to control fear, rather than letting fear blind you or overwhelm you when something unexpected happens. And as you may know about, my story, having been in the World Trade Center and confronted by the horrific things that happened on September 11, I didn’t negatively react, because I knew what to do. I had developed, although I didn’t realize it at the time, a mindset, because I had focused on learning what to do in the case of an emergency. I knew what the evacuation procedures were. I knew why they were, what they were, and where to go, and the various options and so on. So I was. Prepared, although never expected to have to use it, but a lot of that also came from thinking about myself and how I would react in different situations, and not becoming paranoid over but rather really stopping and thinking at night when I had time, well, how would you react if this happened in this way? Or how would you react? Or what will you do with all the knowledge that you’ve gained? And I developed a mindset that said, You know what to do in the case of an emergency, and when the emergency occurred, the mindset kicked in. And again, a lot of that has to do with introspection. I think we don’t spend nearly enough time in our own minds, thinking about ourselves and dealing with the things that that we face. One of the lessons that I’ve been teaching people for a while, and that comes out of the World Trade Center, is, don’t worry about what you can’t control. Focus on what you can and the rest will take care of itself. And there’s so much that we worry about we don’t have any control over, but we still worry about it, and all that does is engender more fear in our lives and makes us more uncomfortable, whereas if we would just worry about the things that we truly can worry about and not worry about the rest of it, which we can learn to do, we’re much better for it. And in your case, it’s the same sort of thing. You’ve got misophonia, okay? But at the same time, look at what you’ve done and how far you’ve come in terms of just mentally developing and preparing yourself because of the whole issue with alcohol and everything else, yeah, and you have grown, and that has to help in how you deal with misophonia.
 
Cris Edwards ** 26:47
Absolutely you said it exceptionally well. And you know, anecdotally, sometimes people say that when you develop, you know, substance use problem of any kind, you kind of stop growing spiritually and growing emotionally, and I think that was true for me. So when I got sober around the age of 42 I had to catch up with being an adult. And one of those was introspection, like you said, it’s, it’s a lifelong thing. And I think Aristotle, or one of those, said that the, you know, the self examines life is its own reward. And through recovery programs, I’m very active in AA and and they focus on why, why you do the things you do. What is your what is your thinking problem that turned into a drinking problem? And that’s just pure introspection, like you said. And I’m grateful to to have learned those skills of picking apart, why I do things, and how can I get through life better in a in a more earnest and and kind and forgiving way than I had been. And, yeah, I interestingly, I mean, you talked about faith and that sort of thing. I don’t come from a particularly religious background. My family was fairly non religious, which was unusual back in the 70s in the south in Texas. So I didn’t really have that background. But, you know, I even today, I consider myself fairly agnostic, but there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t fall back on the advice of the Serenity Prayer, which I didn’t learn until I got into AA. What wonderful advice. I sort of came to that same conclusion through the Stoic philosophers, but they’re teaching the same universal truth, which is exactly what you said. If there’s something that I’m really stressed about and having a problem with, if I can ask myself, Do I have any control over the outcome of this, and if the answer is no, I need to work on forgetting it. I’m just my worrying isn’t solving any problems. It’s just making me suffer, but I can’t do anything about it, and that’s a hard thing to do, and it takes daily vigilance, but you’re absolutely correct. And
 
Michael Hingson ** 28:56
the other part of it is, even if the answer is no, introspection helps you. Then think about, well, why have I been worrying about it? Then, I mean, maybe something else that’s pertinent that made you start to worry about it 100% and it might very well be that there you’ll discover there is something about which you you do have some control regarding whatever it is, but if you don’t take the time and well, it’s not just taking the time to be introspective, it’s also making the life choice to say, I’m going to think about this and I’m going to find the solution that works for me, and make that commitment. And that’s got to be part of what you do, because it isn’t just, oh, I’m going to think about this. Well, that’s not enough. You also do have to decide, I’m going to deal with it. I’m going to find out what is going on, and then I can move forward. And I will move forward
 
Cris Edwards ** 29:56
Absolutely, yeah. How you deal. If that powerlessness or inability to have any control is is you’re right, the next step, and it’s difficult. There’s, there’s so many things I I have no control over. Actually, most things in the universe I am powerless to influence. I can’t change the weather. I can’t move the planets any differently, you know, and so, not yet. Anyway, not yet, no. But same with situations. I mean, there’s just some things that I that affect me that I don’t really have the power to influence in any way. And so yeah, how you deal with that and not let let that fear, that worry, that angst, control your life, which it has done before for I think a lot of us, is a challenge.
 
Michael Hingson ** 30:37
Well, what made you finally decide to start so quiet and form an organization to deal with misophonia. I know you mentioned the pandemic, but started, What? What? What happened?
 
Cris Edwards ** 30:47
That’s a great question. At the time, I could sort of see that there, I just had a hunch that misophonia was probably not the rare condition that it was considered and like, you know, six or seven years ago, it was thought to be a very rare disorder or a rare thing to experience, and I had a hunch that that wasn’t the case. And I also saw that there was a lot of advocacy and awareness and support that needed to happen based off of the input I was receiving from other people with misophonia that nobody was doing there at the time, was one other nonprofit organization dedicated to the misophonia world, and I just wasn’t really happy with what they were doing. And what they were doing was not much. They weren’t really doing anything from the viewpoint of lived experience. Nobody on their board had misophonia. They were all sort of veteran clinicians, and they weren’t doing all of the things that came to my mind as what needed to be done to spread awareness and to further research and on and on. And so I thought, well, I guess it’s up to me, as Bob Dylan says, nobody else is doing it, so I have the opportunity to see if maybe it’s something I can impact. And have been very fortunate to have some really notable wonderful people sign on early to our board and to sign on to volunteer and to help fund some of our our programs, like our student research grants, is are something that we we give out to graduate students who are interested in researching misophonia for a thesis project or a doctoral dissertation. We can give them some funding to undertake a small study. And we were fortunate enough to find some, some families who had a child with misophonia who wanted to fund that kind of research program. So we’ve been fortunate. We’ve We’ve done some very successful things. Not, not to pat myself on the back too much, because we’ve had a lot of help, but, but we, based on my experiences in the recovery community, I became a certified peer specialist, which is a something that the state of Missouri certifies after some training. And we started the first peer support program, comprehensive peer support program for misophonia in the world. And so we’re training people to be facilitators of peer support groups for misophonia, and just a lot of things that didn’t exist that I thought would be nice to have happen, or other people told me that they would like to see as resources for people with misophonia. And so we just try to do the things that people say they want that don’t exist.
 
Michael Hingson ** 33:32
Well, you got to start somewhere. Needless to say, of course, that’s right. And and make it work. What’s a really great success story that you can point to with so client that’s that’s really made a difference?
 
Cris Edwards ** 33:47
Oh, that’s a great question. We’ve got a kind of a weird mishmash of things that we do. We’ve sort of focused more on the research aspect of it, not only with our research grants, which have been, I think we’ve given out probably 10 of those in the last few years. But we also have some other research and support based things we just launched, actually kind of relaunched a project that we took on a couple of years ago, where it’s just, it’s misophoniaproviders.com it’s a free website, an online directory of clinicians like psychologists or audiologists who know what misophonia is and and know how to work with clients who have misophonia. And we’re working on training for clinicians so that they can get up to speed on it. There aren’t really any proven treatments yet for misophonia, but there are ways of working with people who have misophonia, so that you can help them cope and get by and and maybe even test for other conditions and weed those out. And so there’s ways of doing that. So we just, we launched a free online directory for for such clinicians in the last month, and we’re working on the training for that. And that’s really Phil. A huge niche. We decided to focus on that because misophonia is not well known, and we just heard so many people contacting us saying, I went to my doctor or I went to my counselor and said, Hey, I think I have this misophonia. And the counselor or doctor had no idea what it was. They’d never heard of it. They don’t know how to work with it. They don’t know what to do. And we heard that so much that we just realized that that is a huge bottleneck. If we take the prevalence studies I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, that 5% of the population roughly has misophonia to a moderate or advanced impacting what experience like they have in a way that impacts their life in some way, either they’re avoiding situations, or it’s affecting their job or their schooling or their relationships. That’s still millions of Americans. And if millions of Americans are experiencing this, even at 5% and I can think of maybe 30 clinicians in the entire country that I would feel confident enough telling somebody to go to. That’s a huge problem, if only 30 people are handling millions of of of sufferers or people who experience it. So we want to try to tackle that and really make it so that that we’re training clinicians on misophonia. It is hard to understand. It’s a strange thing for people to get their head wrapped around all of its idiosyncrasies, but I would like to say, hopefully in a year, that there’s at least one or two clinicians in every state of the US that can see misophonic clients. Because currently that’s not the case. So I think that that seems to be going really well. It’s a huge project, but it’s, it’s really just to try to solve that problem that we hear so much about, and it is heartbreaking. If, if you talk to your trusted clinician about something and you know more about it than they do, that’s kind of frustrating.
 
Michael Hingson ** 36:58
Well, one of the things that that I’m sort of curious about in our modern world there where things continue to get better and so on. Are we seeing yet, any kind of advances, medically speaking and scientifically speaking, to help misophonia, or is it still too new?
 
Cris Edwards ** 37:15
That’s a great question. Yeah, we’ve been really fortunate. About four years ago, there was a family in the Chicago area that has a daughter with misophonia, and they started what’s called the misophonia Research Fund. This is a private fund, family, family funded fund that has provided the money necessary for some very great studies. The the number of studies on misophonia in the last, let’s say, three to four years has really ramped up. Researchers find it fascinating because it’s so strange, like misophonia doesn’t really align with any known conditions or disorders that we understand better, like OCD or ADHD, not that we understand those fully, but it’s just it’s an anomaly, and people want to learn about it because it’s so strange, as far from a medical standpoint, I mean, and fascinating. And so there’s been a lot of research on it. And of course, people are struggling every day with it, and would really like to see some kind of treatment in the near future. So there’s a number of universities and labs around the world who have been studying this diligently, like at Duke at Baylor Oxford University has has some going on, among others. And yeah, they’re coming at this from a variety of aspects. Some of the more recent work from Duke and from Oxford, aren’t really, let’s say, aren’t really treating misophonia itself, but are working on using known practices to help cope with it better, so things like cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a well established psychological practice which covers a lot of different methods, has been shown to be fairly effective at helping people cope better and handle those triggering situations better in life. So there’s some of that. Now we have some studies on the brain activity of people with misophonia and and there’s about three or four of them that show that the way a person’s brain responds with misophonia is different than how somebody who doesn’t have it would respond to the same sounds. And so researchers are looking at those different brain areas that are activated in somebody with misophonia when they hear a particular sound and seeing if there’s anything that we know of that can affect that. So, long story short, there’s a few studies happening now on using existing medications that are on the market to maybe treat misophonia. We don’t have the results of those that may not prove to be successful at all, but I. There’s one in New York at Mount Sinai testing a very well established medication named called propranolol. That’s a beta blocker that’s been around for years, that’s very affordable. There’s some speculation that that might help affect the parts of the brain that misophonia uses, and again, I feel like I’m maybe I’ve had too much coffee. I feel like I’m being long winded. So I apologize. But as a third part of that, we’re also seeing some interest on the technological front for assistive devices. One of the things that I think is really fascinating that has just started is there’s a a lab, I think it’s an academic lab in Washington state that developed an AI algorithm that is a context aware noise canceling algorithm. I was wondering about that. Yeah, so a lot of people with misophonia now use off the shelf noise canceling headphones. And noise canceling headphones aren’t smart. They just knock out a particular frequency and that’s it. This is a whole different ball game and and I, the people who have seen the prototypes of it, call it miraculous for misophonia. And the AI wasn’t even developed for misophonia. It was developed for audio editing, a completely different use, but if you train this particular noise canceling AI on a type of sound, it learns what that type of sound is, and it can completely remove that sound in a noise canceling function, but not affect any other sounds. So for example, if somebody with misophonia was triggered by bird singing, that’s not a real common one, but that, I’ll use that as an example. It’s a great example, though, yeah, you can train it with the types of bird noise that a particular find, a person finds aversive, and the AI learns what those are, and within the context of its input, can just completely remove those sounds, not based on frequency, but the actual sound itself, actual sound, yeah, and not affect the voices, not affect any other ambient noises at all. And if it works, as people say, that’s going to be a wonderful assistive device for people to misophonia. It could be life changing.
 
Michael Hingson ** 42:07
That’ll be a major game changer, because that deals with the basic sound absolutely and you could be in a classroom and not worry about the kids chewing gum
 
Cris Edwards ** 42:15
precisely. Yep, be cool. So there’s a lot of work on, a lot of interest in treatments and stuff, yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 42:22
well, and that’s why I asked. It just seems like it would make sense, and I’m glad there’s enough of an awareness about it now that people are, in fact, doing more research regarding it. Yeah, I’m assuming that misophonia would be considered a disability,
 
Cris Edwards ** 42:41
absolutely. Yeah. One of the things that we started off that there was a big, important part of so quiet early days that nobody was really tackling was that misophonia can be a disability. It affected my life. It still affects my life every day in in all kinds of ways which I can go into. But you know, not for everybody. Some people have symptoms of it, and it’s not not affecting their life. They’re not avoiding things, or it’s not impacting their relationships or their their life activities. But when I looked at the, say, the ADA definition of what a disability is. It’s pretty broad, and I say what you will about the ADA, it’s got plenty of things to criticize, but I think the definition that it uses to determine what is a disability is is pretty open, yeah. And so I appreciate that, and my experience with misophonia absolutely fits that. Misophonia has affected my social life, my schooling, my work. I’ve quit jobs because my misophonia. When I look back, there’s been a couple of jobs that I just walked out of because something was so disturbing to me and my sensory aversion that I’ve actually left jobs, which I’m not encouraging anybody do that, but you know, it’s impacted my life a lot,
 
Michael Hingson ** 44:01
but you know a lot more now too, I do, yeah, and so that I would think can help make it more possible for you not to quit a job, or that you can change the circumstances so you can perform a job. Yeah,
 
Cris Edwards ** 44:16
it’s very I’m glad you said that. It’s very validating to even have the most basic of affirming information. So the fact that it was given a name, this amorphous thing that was hard to explain and hard to describe, now has a has a name, I can tell people Google misophonia, and that will explain things very well. We have a consensus definition. A bunch of researchers about three years ago published in an academic journal just sort of a consensus definition on what we mean when we say misophonia, what this thing is as we understand it. So that helps probably one of our most low tech but popular programs or initiatives was so quiet. Is our free information cards, and these are just business cards, really. They’re double sided business cards that say I have misophonia. Here’s a brief description of what it is. You’re not doing anything wrong, but that that sound is going to be very disturbing to me while I’m around. Would you mind not doing that? Like yeah, thank you for your help. And we printed those because a misophonic reaction is so physiologically uncomfortable, a lot of people feel very irate or frustrated or uncomfortable, or it’s impossible to communicate about it in a way that’s kind and and helpful when you’re having that reaction. And so the cards we send for free to people all over the world. We’ve sent out 1000s and 1000s of these. The cards do the talking for you when you can’t, and you can hand them out to people and help them learn about it. And those have been incredibly popular. But just having tools like that, I use the cards sometimes. If I’m talking to somebody new about it, a stranger or somebody at a that I’ve never met at a meeting or whatever, I can say, hey, you know, when you get home, you can look more, look up more about this particular thing. But here’s what it’s called. This is what I experience, and that’s why I have the no chewing gum rule at this meeting. You know? But the cards are low tech. They’re cheap, but hugely popular. We love sending them out. We sent them to every continent except Antarctica, and just, it’s been very helpful in communicating about
 
Michael Hingson ** 46:23
this. Well, you’ll really have arrived when you get to Antarctica. Then, you
 
Cris Edwards ** 46:28
know, we’ve reached out to people in Antarctica to see if they know anyone with misophonia. So we’re working on that. Yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 46:33
so low population continent, but still, right? But, you know, it’s, it is still definitely an issue that needs to be addressed in so many ways, and it’s so exciting that you’re doing it. And I go back to the thing that you said earlier about the AI solution. You know, we keep hearing about AI and all the horrible things about it, but the reality is, it is like anything else. It’s how we use it, and I think that’s a very intriguing process that you’re using AI to to deal with sound somebody once told me about the whole issue with noise canceling, and it was some time ago, so it’s evolved a lot, but they actually had a house, and they had noise canceling processes around the house. So even in the city, you didn’t hear all the city sounds until you got outside and away from the noise canceling And now, of course, it’s a whole lot different, because you can do so much more about what you want to filter out.
 
Cris Edwards ** 47:40
Yeah, yeah, that’s absolutely true. And even very low tech solutions, I realized early on, and looking back, I can again, I can put the pieces together, but I like having a little bit of white noise around. So I have box fans around the house, and I leave the exhaust fan in the bathroom in the kitchen on, because it helps muffle things. And that little bit of white noise I find very helpful in in a low tech
 
Michael Hingson ** 48:07
way, it’s not ocean sounds. I
 
Cris Edwards ** 48:11
actually like ocean sounds. Now, the interesting thing about misophonia is that every person with misophonia has kind of a different involuntary set of sounds that affect them. There’s some ones that are fairly common, like eating sounds or poop slurping or whatever, very common. But not everybody with misophonia is triggered by those. And so I actually love the sound of Yeah, ocean waves, cats purring. I find those very relaxing. But not everybody does. Some people hate white noise. I whatever.
 
Michael Hingson ** 48:43
I like silence, and so, yeah, I like the sound of the ocean and so on. But I also enjoy just sometimes not having anything on. And that’s that’s just me. But I believe when you’re going back to being introspective, when you’re really thinking and looking at things internally. It’s nice to just be quiet and not have other things that distract you, because then you can really focus on what you need to do and listen to your own inner voice that you might not hear otherwise, absolutely.
 
Cris Edwards ** 49:16
And one other thing is kind of hard to understand about misophonia is that complete silence is not always preferable. If you’re in a completely quiet room, then every little noise is more noticeable, and that could be our problem. So we often joke about there’s sort of a middle, middle ground of noise. If we go to a restaurant, you know, finding where the optimal place to sit in a restaurant where you’re not likely to be to be a heavier misophonia activated is sort of a mathematical challenge, but a medium busy restaurant is ideal. It’s too quiet, then you can hear everybody eating. If it’s too noisy, it’s overwhelming. There’s kind of a general we look for medium busy restaurants as the ideal, because the noise and Chatter is just vague enough to cover up sounds and. That be, I don’t know, it’s kind of funny
 
Michael Hingson ** 50:02
today i i don’t seem to have any luck at finding very quiet restaurants any rush.
 
Cris Edwards ** 50:07
That’s true. But, um, you know, it’s, as everybody who probably listens to your your program knows, it takes a lot of just reconfiguring plans all the time. It’s a lot of improvising on the fly to suit our needs. And it’s very common for me to go grocery shopping, and then if there’s somebody popping their gum that you can hear all over the store, I have to leave, and I’ll just have to come back later and finish my grocery shopping. It’s just constantly rerouting and re orchestrating what I have planned to fit around the world, and the input that it provides is it’s kind of a challenge. I
 
Michael Hingson ** 50:44
guess I’m weird. I’ve never really learned to pop gum. I can chew it. I’ve never been a major gum chewer, but I’ve never really learned to pop it so I don’t make noise like other people did. And in fact, in reality, I didn’t learn to blow bubbles with bubble gum until, gosh, it must have been like about 2004 well, 2005 or 2006 I just never learned, but I finally did learn, and that’s interesting,
 
Cris Edwards ** 51:11
yeah, sometimes, like I I’ll run into people in public, and I wonder if they have misophonia, whether they realize it or not. This is a strange anecdote, but when my wife were moving from we were moving from Denver to St Louis, and we stopped at a Denny’s in the in the middle of Kansas somewhere, and we sat next to this older gentleman who was sitting by himself, and he didn’t make any noise when he ate the silver word, never touched the plate. He chewed quietly. He didn’t make a single noise. And we both noticed that, and we thought, I wonder if he has misophonia, and he’s accommodating for himself, whether he realizes that there’s a word for it, and it’s a thing like he’s being very conscientiously trying not to make any noise when he’s eating. It’s fascinating
 
Michael Hingson ** 51:56
for me. I just never learned it. I mean, so I don’t think it was an avoidance issue. I just never learned how to do it. And as I say, I finally learned how to blow bubble gum because somebody finally described the process in a way that I was able to emulate it and blow bubbles. But no one had ever described it to be and so having not seen other people do it and see how they do it, it was it was fun. I’m glad I can now blow bubbles, but, yeah,
 
Cris Edwards ** 52:23
it’s that’s a that’s a skill. One other thing that’s interesting that you kind of reminded me of is when we have conditions or disorders like misophonia or miso Kinesia or other sensory aversion or sensory sensitivities, we can oftentimes end up in kind of a accommodations stalemate, where we have conflicting needs. So a lot of people who have, say anxiety disorders or PTSD or anxiety, and a lot of times people with autism, they like to make noises and and do what they call stimming, which is kind of self soothing, repetitive movements, popping bubble wrap is very soothing to them. But for somebody with misophonia like those are the things that we want to avoid. And so sometimes what might make one person comfortable and that they need to be doing for their own serenity is going to be very aversive to people with sensory disorders. And so in a classroom or work environment, sometimes we get these conflicts of needs. It’s tough to navigate,
 
Michael Hingson ** 53:30
yeah, how do you how do you deal with that? I mean, I guess you have the cards that you mentioned. You know, in general, I guess that’s kind of the sort of thing that you have to do is to recognize you have to deal with people who aren’t necessarily sensitive to what you’re wanting to deal with. Yeah,
 
Cris Edwards ** 53:48
in some of those instances, one of the things we do a lot is right writing advocacy letters from a lived experience standpoint on what misophonia is to help people get accommodations if they need them, and they’re usually very simple, no cost or low cost things that people can can ask for at their work or in their their school. But a lot of times, you know that that gives us an impetus to ask for either remote learning, maybe for somebody with misophonia, that’s a lot more common now, having a private workspace that’s honestly an office, but is is quieter and and that way both people can can have what they need. And yeah, we try to come up with creative solutions to help everybody with accommodations. What
 
Michael Hingson ** 54:34
would you tell someone today that you encounter who kind of feels helpless and hopeless because they have a condition like misophonia?
 
Cris Edwards ** 54:41
That’s a great question. I think one of the big reasons I started a nonprofit was strictly to help with that people with misophonia, or really, you know, any kind of similar condition or disorder can could kind of start feeling hopeless. Misophonia can be very isolating, like. I said, people avoid interacting with the public or their families or the world at large as a way of of coping. And it can seem like the world in its current state, is not made for people like us. The world is a noisy place. Yeah, we’re we’re in a society. And so it can, it can start. You can kind of get down in a in a hopelessness pit, as I call it, kind of a depression hole, thinking, well, am I cut out for the world? You know, what kind of job am I going to have? I have to work with other people. I have to go to school with other people. I actually like talking to other people. I just can’t I sort of compare it sometimes to an allergy, so a person with, say, a peanut allergy might actually like peanuts. They just can’t have them. And so I try to tell people that all hope is not lost, even though we don’t have a proven treatment yet, we should in the future, things are getting better. We have a lot of things now that we didn’t have when I was growing up, as far as information and support and a community that all understands this and those things can be wonderful. We have peer support meetings and just to hear, hear somebody say, you know, I’ve never met another person before today who had misophonia, and knowing that this thing that I have had such a hard time explaining to my family, that you all get it, you all know what it’s like, and when nobody else in my life truly gets it, that’s That’s amazing. All hope is not lost. And one day at a time, we can kind of get through. And it’s a challenge, as it is with any disability to get get through, hour by hour, but over over time. You know, I, I feel like my life is going well, even with my invisible disabilities or invisible disorders. Just takes a little extra work, a little more creativity, little more understanding from other people, so on, so forth. But
 
Michael Hingson ** 56:55
you synthesize that and you understand it, which is important. So you’ve, you’ve had that blessing, and I’m glad that you’re able to pass that on to other people being being curious and nosy. As I mentioned earlier, we got introduced to Sheldon. How did you guys meet?
 
Cris Edwards ** 57:09
That’s a great question. You know, I was for a completely unrelated reason. I was looking at business websites. I for our website, or so quiet website I wanted to put together terms and conditions. Now, geeky people know that pretty much any website you visit for a business organization, there’s some page on their website that is the terms and conditions for using a website. Most people don’t venture into those because they’re just legalese, but they exist. So I was looking at some examples. What’s that? But they exist. They exist. Yeah, for legal aficionados, but I was looking, I think you, if I remember correctly, and don’t quote me on this, I think it was the Dr Bronner’s soap page had this little accessibility button in the lower right corner of every page of their site. And I was like thinking, what is that? So I clicked on it, and I brought up this really cool, robust menu of accessibility options for visual impairments, ADHD, you know, helping you focus on things, just any kind of thing you can imagine, as far as ways that you can change a website to make it more accessible was on there, and that blew my mind. And of course, running a nonprofit with a very popular website that’s based around particularly sensory disabilities, I had to reach out and and I found out that it was the access be plugin, it’s very easy to install on our website. And so I reached out, and they put me in touch with Sheldon, who who helped us get on board and add it to our website, and has been really very helpful and a good advocate for people like us, and it’s been working for you? Yeah, yeah. I’m I’m really delighted to have that on our website and be able to offer that to everybody who visits us.
 
Michael Hingson ** 59:01
Well, that’s cool. I’m glad that it’s working well and that it’s helping people be able to interact more with the site. And you’re right. It’s got a lot of different profiles. And the neat thing about accessibe is it continues to grow and expand, and so much more than it used to be. And then we’ll continue to do that, which is another example of AI. It’s not kind of everything as perfectly as one would like, but there are other alternatives that accessibe has for websites that are more complex, but still, the fact that you’re able to make it work, and it’s enhancing your website that’s as good as it gets. Yeah,
 
Cris Edwards ** 59:36
and I think, if I remember correctly again, I’m kind of new to accessibe, but I think part of the AI is that it generates image descriptions kind of magically, which blows my mind. Some are
 
Michael Hingson ** 59:47
more accurate than others, maybe so, but that’s okay. But you know what? They’re getting better all the time. That’s the real issue. And so images that may not be described with. The AI technology and described well today might very well be much more accurately described in six months. That’s the neat thing about accessibe. It is so scalable, it is and it makes it possible when, when any improvements are made to accessibe, it improves every site that uses
 
Cris Edwards ** 1:00:20
automatically. Cool, yeah, yeah. And I just, while we were talking, I think I’ll reach out to Sheldon, because I just had an idea for a feature that I don’t think is on there that I could recommend, and that is white noise and brown noise as an option, a little player. We added a brown noise player to our website, but if that was a part of the accessibility options to have kind of a white noise or, ah, I think I’ll recommend that to Sheldon. We’ll see what happens.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:00:43
Make sense? See what happens. Yeah. Well, if people are speaking of reaching out, want to reach out to you and learn more about so quiet and so on. How do they do that? That’s
 
Cris Edwards ** 1:00:52
a great question. You can visit our website. It’s just so quiet.org. You can find us on pretty much every social media platform. We have the same handle for everyone. It’s so quiet org. Or you can email me at hello at so quiet.org
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:01:08
There you go. Well, people will reach out. It is easy, likewise, and I think that’s so cool. Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been very informative and a lot of fun, and I’ve learned a lot, I love to say that if I’m not learning at least as much as anybody else who listens to the podcast, I’m not doing my job right. Yeah, I really enjoyed learning and really valued the time we got to spend. So you are always welcome to come back any old time you want, if you got other things to chat about. Have you written any books yet? No, to work. Get to work.
 
Cris Edwards ** 1:01:41
I’m thinking about that. You know, there’s actually only been one book on misophonia published by a major publisher, in other words, that wasn’t self published, and that came out last year by Dr Jane Gregory. She’s a great collaborator of ours, but maybe I will write a book, but I’ll tell you, Michael, it’s it’s been wonderful. I thank you so much for having me on your on your podcast and for doing what you do, it’s been a delight to learn your story as well and learn about, you, know, your experiences and and we talked a little bit about philosophy and self reflection, and that’s it’s just been wonderful being on here. So thank you so
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:02:13
much. Well, this has been fun, and I hope that all of you listening out there have enjoyed this. I’d love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts. Love to hear what you like, maybe what you didn’t, but I hope you liked it all you can reach me easily enough. It’s Michael M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O n.com/podcast, and wherever you’re watching or listening, please give us a five star rating. We love getting ratings, and we appreciate the high ratings that that you give us and then and any input that you have. And Chris for you and anyone out there who is encountering the podcast. If you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest, please let me know we are always looking for more people to come on unstoppable mindset that we get to chat with, that we can all learn from. So please do that, and we really value all your input and all the things that you have to say. So again, Chris, I want to thank you. This has been a lot of fun.
 
Cris Edwards ** 1:03:21
Thanks, Michael. Hope you have a great rest of your week, and I look forward to doing this again sometime in the future
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:32
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.