Episode 307 – Unstoppable Bully Expert with Bill Eddy

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Our guest this time, Bill Eddy, is a family mediator, lawyer and therapist, and the Chief Innovation Officer of the High Conflict Institute based in San Diego, California. He received his bachelor’s degree in Psychology, but didn’t stop there. As you will read, he went on to learn and work in the therapy space for a number of years, but his longing to deal with some other issues caused him to study law and after receiving his Juris Prudence degree he worked in the law as a mediator. While doing this he also felt it relevant and appropriate to begin working on ways to address conflicts between persons. He realized that conflict often meant that someone was bullying another person.
 
Bill and I spend much time discussing bullying, where it comes from, how and why people become bullies and how to deal with bullying kinds of behavior. Our discussions are fascinating and I quite believe important for everyone to hear.
 
Just last month Bill’s latest book, “Our New World of Adult Bullies” was released. Bill discusses his book and why we are encountering more bullying behavior today than we have experienced in the past.
 
Enough from me. I hope you find my conversation with Bill Eddy relevant, useful and, of course, entertaining.
 
 
 
About the Guest:
 
Bill Eddy is a family mediator, lawyer and therapist, and the Chief Innovation Office of the High Conflict Institute based in San Diego, California. He has provided training to mediators, lawyers, judges, mental health professionals and others on the subject of managing high-conflict personalities in over 35 states, 9 provinces in Canada, and twelve other countries.
 
As a lawyer, Mr. Eddy was a Certified Family Law Specialist (CFLS) in California for 15 years, where he represented clients in family court. Prior to that, he provided psychotherapy for 12 years to children and families in psychiatric hospitals and outpatient clinics as a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW). Throughout his forty-year career he has provided divorce mediation services, including the past 15 years as the Senior Family Mediator at the National Conflict Resolution Center in San Diego, California.

Mr. Eddy is the author of several books, including:
· Mediating High Conflict Disputes
· High Conflict People in Legal Disputes
· Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder
· Calming Upset People with EAR
· BIFF: Quick Responses to High Conflict People
· BIFF for CoParent Communication
· BIFF at Work
· BIFF for Lawyers and Law Offices
· So, What’s Your Proposal: Shifting High Conflict People From Blaming to Problem-Solving in 30 Seconds
· Don’t Alienate the Kids! Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High-Conflict Divorce
 
He has a continuing education course for Mental Health professionals titled “It’s All Your Fault!”: Working with High Conflict Personalities. He has a Psychology Today blog about high conflict personality disorders with over 6 million views. He has a podcast titled “It’s All Your Fault” which he does weekly with Megan Hunter.
 
He taught Negotiation and Mediation at the University of San Diego School of Law for six years. He has served on the part-time faculty of the National Judicial College in the United States and has provided several trainings for judges in Canada for the National Judicial Institute. He is currently on the part-time faculty at the Straus Institute of Dispute Resolution at Pepperdine University School of Law teaching Psychology of Conflict Communication each year. He teaches once a year on Advanced Communication Skills as Conjoint Associate Professor at Newcastle Law School in Newcastle, Australia.
 
He is the developer of the New Ways for Families® method for potentially high-conflict families, which is being implemented in several family court systems in the United States and Canada, as well as an online co-parenting course (Parenting Without Conflict by New Ways for Families). He is also the developer of the New Ways for Mediation® method, which emphasizes more structure by the mediator and simple negotiation skills for the parties.
He obtained his JD law degree in 1992 from the University of San Diego, a Master of Social Work degree in 1981 from San Diego State University, and a Bachelors degree in Psychology in 1970 from Case Western Reserve University. His website is: www.HighConflictInstitute.com.
 
Ways to connect with Bill:
 
www.HighConflictInstitute.com.
 
About the Host:
 
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
 
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
 
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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
 
Michael Hingson ** 01:21
And welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Today, we get to deal mostly with the unexpected, because inclusion is what it is, diversity is what it is, and those we put in the order that we do, because in the typical sense of the word diversity, doesn’t intend to include disabilities or any discussion of disabilities. And people say, well, disability means lack of ability when they’re talking about any of that anyway. And the reality is that’s not true. Disability should not mean a lack of ability. And people say, Well, it does, because it starts with dis Well, what about disciple? Yeah, what about disciple? What about discern? What about, you know, so many other kinds of things. The reality is that everyone has a disability, and we could talk about that, but that’s not what we’re here to do today. We’re here to talk to Bill Eddy, who has written a number of books. He’s got a degree in psychology, he’s got degrees in law, and I’m not going to go and give all that away, because I’d rather he do it. But we also get to be excited by the fact that he has a new book, and we’ll talk about it a bunch. It’s called our new world of adult bullies. Um, that’s what I say about my cat all the time, because she does run the house and, you know, and we can mention that name, Bill, it’s stitch. Now, she’s a great kitty, but she she does have her mindset on what she wants, so she’s trained us well. Well, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Bill, how are you?
 
Bill Eddy ** 02:57
I’m good, and thanks so much for having me on. Michael, glad to be with you.
 
Michael Hingson ** 03:01
Well, we’re glad you’re here and looking forward to it. Why don’t we start, as I love to do so often, why don’t you tell us about kind of the early build, growing up, or any of those kinds of things to lead us into where we go?
 
Bill Eddy ** 03:14
Well, I was one of four kids, and as I mentioned in the introduction of the book in third grade, I had my own personal bully. He decided I was the guy he wanted to pick on and fight. And I think he figured that out because my parents didn’t allow us kids to fight, so we weren’t allowed to fight back. And you know, my parents said, you know, if takes two to make a fight, so if a fight starting, just walk away. And I said, what if the other person won’t let you walk away? So we’ll find a way to walk away. So for most of third grade, he harassed me and would catch me after school and hit me and kick me in the the foot of the stairway. We had a basement classroom, and there was a stairway out from there so no one could see and it wasn’t easy to get away from but mostly I figured out how to avoid him, and also how to how to help the older kids with their homework, so they’d be more of a protector for me. So that’s early childhood, but I think it influenced my my choice as an adult, you know, a psychology major, and then I got a master’s in social work to do child and family counseling. Did that 12 years, but I liked resolving conflicts, and decided to go to law school and all of that primarily so I could practice mediation to help people solve conflicts. But many of the conflicts I’ve dealt with had bullies in them, so I started studying these personalities, and that kind of brings me up to today.
 
Michael Hingson ** 04:58
Wow. Well, you have certainly written, also a number of books. I was reading your list of books, and you have one on divorce, and clearly there are bullies there, and a lot of places, I’m sure, and you have just a number of books, and I can see where the whole concept of having bullies can be in all of those and at the same time, most of us haven’t learned how to deal with bullies. We haven’t learned how to address the issue of avoidance, which is what you talked about, but it makes perfect sense. I don’t particularly like bullies. I’ve not been bullied a lot, I think I was a couple of times in grammar school, and a kid hit me a couple of times, and I can only assume that it was sort of a bullish oriented thing, but I don’t really recall that anything ever happened other than that. It only happened like once or twice, and then I was left alone. But still, there is so much of it, and there’s been bullying to a degree for well, as long as we’ve had people, I guess, right, and this whole idea of avoiding it is obviously what we need to do, although I guess the other part about it that comes to mind is, how do you get the bully to change their mindset and recognize that that’s not the best productive use of their time? Well,
 
Bill Eddy ** 06:30
what’s interesting is childhood bullies mostly do figure that out. And I’d say probably 90% of childhood bullies don’t become adult bullies that, you know, somebody punches them in the nose, or nobody wants to be their friend, or they get in trouble at home or at school, and they learn that that doesn’t work, but maybe 10% get away with it. Maybe they’re encouraged, you know, maybe their parents laugh when they bully other people, and that’s that’s the ones that become the adult bullies. But what I find, and the Institute I work with, high conflict Institute, we do a lot of training, a lot of coaching, and we we teach people like for workplace coaching to to try to give bullies some conflict resolution skills so that they won’t be bullies, so they can solve problems others other ways, and we find maybe half of the bullies can improve their behavior enough to keep the job, and About half quit or are told they need to leave. So I’d say about half of bullies can learn to stop that behavior or rein it in, and about half can’t. That’s just a real rough estimate from my personal observation.
 
Michael Hingson ** 07:55
The ones that can’t or don’t, is it that they get so much satisfaction from bullying and they get away with it that just they just don’t see the value of it. Or is it different than that? Well, I
 
Bill Eddy ** 08:08
think it’s not as logical as that. I think it has a lot to do with personality patterns, and the ones that are adult bullies usually have personality patterns that border on personality disorders, especially the Cluster B personality disorders, which are narcissistic, anti social, borderline and histrionic. So it’s part of who they are. They’re not really even thinking about it. This is just how they operate in the world. And so if they’re not stopped, they just automatically do this. If they are stopped or told they’re going to lose their job, maybe half of them can rein in their behavior, and maybe the other calf can’t, even if they want to, they just can’t stop themselves. But mostly it’s more or less automatic. Is what I see. They really lack self reflection, and therefore, generally don’t change. And one of the definitions of personality disorders is an enduring pattern of behavior, so it’s not, not likely to change because they had an insight. Because if they were going to have an insight like that, they would have had it before they became adults.
 
Michael Hingson ** 09:29
Yeah, and it, and it just doesn’t seem to happen. And it is, it is so unfortunate that we even have to talk about this kind of a subject. But it’s also very important that we understand it, because I think those of us who aren’t bullied or who aren’t bullies, still need to understand it’s like anything else, still need to understand it in order to learn how to deal with it. I would think,
 
Bill Eddy ** 09:55
yeah, and I think part of why this. Is coming up now is traditionally in our society. And I know my whole lifetime, adult bullies were pretty much kept on the fringe, and so families said, Hey, you can’t do that in our family and communities and schools and and workplaces said that. But what’s interesting now is, I’d say, the last 20 years or so, is bullies are getting center stage because all of our media competition, especially the screens we have, are trying to show us the worst behavior so that we’ll pay attention to them. So social media, cable 24/7, news, movies, TV shows are all showing bad behavior to grab our attention, but the result of this is that they’re teaching bad behavior and tolerating it and giving permission to bullies to act out when they might have kind of restrained themselves in the past.
 
Michael Hingson ** 11:07
How do we get media, television and so on to change that? I’ve I’ve kind of felt that way for a while. I actually took a course in college, um, it was called Why police, which is a fascinating course. It was taught by not a deputy sheriff, but he was a volunteer deputy sheriff in Orange County. He was an engineering professor at UC Irvine, where I went to school, and he and he taught this course, and I made the observation once in class, that a lot of the negativity that we see really comes from what we experience on television. And he said, no, that’s just not true, but it certainly is true. Well,
 
Bill Eddy ** 11:49
especially nowadays, especially nowadays, yeah, yeah. Maybe that wasn’t true 30 years ago, but it seems very much true now. Yeah, and you mentioned a study in the beginning of, I think it’s chapter two of the book that about it was a workplace study, and if I can quote it, I think this is helpful for this discussion. He says they said there’s a 2021, workplace bullying Institute survey. So in the second year of the pandemic, he says 58% of the respondents on the survey agreed that quotes the display of bullying, disrespect and intolerance of the opinions of others by politicians and public figures affected workplaces because they encouraged aggression and granted permission to ignore the rules. And I think it’s very direct that the media does impact family life, workplace community and online, for sure.
 
Michael Hingson ** 13:00
Yeah, yeah, I, I would agree. And, you know, today, and we’re not going to talk about specific individuals, but at the same time today, I dare say, there are a number of people who step back and contemplate this whole concept of bullies and so on, who would agree that in the political world there? Well, there are a number, but there’s one especially, who tends to be more of a bully. But I would say that there are a number of people in the political world who just want to force their own way, and tend to bully a lot.
 
Bill Eddy ** 13:34
And I totally agree with you. Even have a chapter on what I call the high emotion media, because it’s the emotions, the disrespect, the insulting statements, the personal attacks, you know, I don’t like the way you look, or I think you’re crazy or you’re an idiot, and that kind of message, and If you have that going back and forth between politicians. It’s very exciting to watch, but it’s not the way you want to live, like you wouldn’t want to be in a relationship like that, no, and so. So the media image promotes that because it gets attention. It really grabs attention. And I would I would suggest that it’s been over the last 30 years approximately, that politics has become more about entertainment than about government. And the values of entertainment are extreme behavior and disrespect and fighting and chaos and crisis and fear, whereas government is when it’s running well is boring, is focused on details, focused on people getting along, having their share of responsibility, all of that kind of stuff. So we’ve turned the. Values of politics upside down, and we think now that’s the way. That’s what politics is. And it’s unfortunate, because government will unravel if we use the entertainment values to govern the country. Of course,
 
Michael Hingson ** 15:16
there are a number of people, especially in the media, who would say, but all of this sells, newspapers, all of this sells, and that’s why we do it. I I submit that that’s not necessarily so. But how do you show people that? Yeah, this sells, but don’t you think there are other kinds of things that would sell even more
 
Bill Eddy ** 15:42
well, it’s tricky, but one of my goals in writing the book is to teach people self help skills, to monitor their absorption of high emotion media and to be able to set limits on it. Like I don’t like to get more than half an hour of news from a screen. I like reading the papers and reading different points of view. And if you watch more than half an hour and you get this coming in your ears and your eyes and all of that, it just takes over your thinking. And actually, the more repetition there is, the more things feel true that are clearly not true, but the way our brains work, repetition tells us what’s really true and what’s really important. And TV, even radio, can bombard us with false information that starts to feel true because we get so much of it.
 
Michael Hingson ** 16:40
Yeah, it’s it is someone, yes, I hear you, and it’s so unfortunate that more people don’t tend to be analytical, reflecting introspective. You know, we talked earlier about the book that I’m writing, live like a guide dog, that will be published in August of this year. And one of the things that I point out in the book, for people who want to start to learn to control fear, rather than letting it, as I say, blind you or overwhelm you, or whatever word you want to use, is you need to become more introspective and look at well, why am I afraid of this? Why am I reacting to this? How do I deal with it? And it doesn’t take a lot of time every day to do it, but if you do it for a little bit of time every day, the Mind Muscle develops, and you get beyond a lot of that.
 
Bill Eddy ** 17:34
I think that’s a very important point, as we can train ourselves to what to pay attention to, what to ignore, and we can train our self talk like you’re saying. That’s excellent,
 
Michael Hingson ** 17:46
yeah, and I think it’s it’s all about analyzing ourselves. And something that I learned, and I’ve talked about it a few times on this podcast, one of the things that I did when I was a program director at the campus radio station at UC Irvine, Zot, K, U, C, I was that I would ask people to listen to their shows. So when I was the program director, we would actually record people talking, and I insisted that they take the cassettes home. Remember cassettes? Boy, is that a long time ago,
 
Bill Eddy ** 18:19
two, wow, back aways, yeah, even
 
Michael Hingson ** 18:23
pre eight track, but take the cassettes home. Listen to them, because it’s something that I did and and as I grew older and became a public speaker, after September 11, I recorded my talk so that I could listen to them. And I said, I do that because I’m my own worst critic. I’m going to be more hard on me than anyone will. And it took until even after the pandemic started, that I finally learned wrong way to look at it. I’m not my own worst critic. I’m my own best teacher. By analyzing and thinking about it and recognizing that I’m my own best teacher, because no one can really teach me anything. They can present me with the information, but I have to teach myself to learn it. So I realize that, and I’m my own best teacher, and I think that works out really well, and it’s a lot more positive anyway,
 
Bill Eddy ** 19:18
right? Great. And that’s that’s that promotes lifelong learning. I just reading an article about how a lot of people, you know, after a certain amount of time, they feel okay. I got my career, I’ve done my skills, and now I’m going to kick back. But Lifetime Learning is where it’s at. I think it’s exciting. It
 
Michael Hingson ** 19:39
is. I consider life an adventure. I consider the internet a treasure trove of information. And yeah, there’s a dark web and and all that. And now, of course, we have AI, and some people want to be negative about that, but if we use it right, and if we develop our own inner structure and. And recognize the value and how to use it. It is, and all of those are characteristics and features that can do nothing but help us.
 
Bill Eddy ** 20:10
Yeah, they’re tools. I like the idea of tools, not rules, so we’ll see what we can do with them. But as long as humans are in charge, I think we may be okay. Well,
 
Michael Hingson ** 20:25
I hope so. Um, Mark Twain once said, I wonder if God had been a man because he was disappointed in the monkeys. But who knows.
 
Bill Eddy ** 20:35
He wasn’t. He was a brilliant guy. He was
 
Michael Hingson ** 20:39
one of my two favorite people, Mark Twain and Will Rogers, boy. They were very clever. And analysts, you had it figured out. They did, if only we would listen. Well, why did you write the book?
 
Bill Eddy ** 20:53
Well, I wrote it. I started writing it. The end of 2020, when the pandemic was going strong, and a lot of people, and we were all kind of holed up at home. I had more time to think, because I couldn’t travel and teach and do the work I do. But I also, you know, on TV, there was, you know, the the arguments in bullying, frankly, about masks, about vaccines, about the George Floyd murder, about protests against the George Floyd murder, that that it seemed like the country was kind of in a 5050, state of bullying each other, but it wasn’t. The number of bullies is actually quite small, but they’re getting a high profile, and I wanted to explain that bullies at all levels have the same patterns of behavior, and few people have eye into the workings of families like I’ve had as a family therapist, as a family mediator and as a Family Lawyer, and few people have had, you know, awareness of workplace bullying like I have training human resources and employee assistance personnel. Likewise, neighbor disputes, because I’d be consulting on a lot of neighbor disputes, and certainly online disputes. So bullying seemed to be happening in all these different places, but most people didn’t realize the extent of it, because people kept it private. And I was like, Well, I can see it’s the same patterns. And then, you know, Putin invades Ukraine, and I’m going, this guy is like a domestic violence perpetrator. He has the same lack of self awareness and the same blaming personality and so I included on up to politicians and international relations to show I can tell you what the patterns are to look for. So look out for bullies. Don’t let them into your life. Spot them and stop them. And I wanted, I wanted the book to really open people’s eyes, so to speak to what’s going on in the world today that they really haven’t been aware of by and large,
 
Michael Hingson ** 23:13
right? What makes us, especially as adults, susceptible to being bullied?
 
Bill Eddy ** 23:23
Well, we’re not prepared for them, and that’s a lot of what I hope to do with the book is help people be prepared so they don’t overreact or under react. But I’d say most people are just kind of shocked. Suddenly there’s a bully in the office and they’re yelling at somebody, and it’s like, oh my goodness, I’m, I’m I’m freezing because, you know, I don’t know what to do. They’re yelling at somebody else, thank goodness, but I’m scared too, or they’re yelling at me, and I freeze because I don’t know what to do. So I think what happens is people are just really unprepared. On the other hand, most people are nice people. Let’s say 80% of people are nice people. They don’t like to interrupt people, even when they’re masking saying nasty comments. They don’t like to just walk away from a conversation, even if the conversation is really hurtful and abusive, and so people aren’t used to being assertive against a bully, because they’re used to everybody being reasonable, and so that’s why they catch us by surprise and And we’re not ready for them.
 
Michael Hingson ** 24:39
I subscribe to a service out here called next door, which is also in San Diego, and it’s a way to really keep up with what’s going on in the community. And I’ve seen a number of posts where something happened and people suddenly say. I’m surprised that never happens in this area, and that just isn’t true anymore,
 
Bill Eddy ** 25:08
right, anywhere, anywhere,
 
Michael Hingson ** 25:13
and it’s so unfortunate that we don’t learn to look out for all of this. I think, yeah, go
 
Bill Eddy ** 25:23
ahead. I just gonna say, I think that’s that’s what has to change, is we do have to be aware, not paranoid about it around every corner, but aware that this is going to come your way. I like to say, I think everyone’s going to have a bully in their life sooner rather than later, but if you’re prepared and you manage it well, they’re not going to get very deep into your life and will probably move on. So I do think that’s coming. Sorry. I interrupted. No,
 
Michael Hingson ** 25:54
no, no, no, no, you did No, you were right. Tell me what are some of the warning signs that you’re dealing with a bully?
 
Bill Eddy ** 26:00
Well, first of all that the person goes beyond the normal social boundaries and keep going like they don’t stop themselves. So an unrestrained pattern of behavior. When you start thinking to yourself, Well, I’m sure he’ll come to his senses soon, or I’m sure she’ll realize how destructive she’s being. The problem is the answer that is not necessarily, probably not. Another way that’s really quite simple is when a bully starts, when a person starts criticizing your intelligence, your morals, your sanity, your appearance, your existence. When they make it personal is a real sign they’ve crossed the line, and now you’re dealing with a bully. Because bullies make it personal. They want a one down relationship. They want you to they want to dominate you. And so that’s one of the easiest ways to recognize, is the way they talk to you, talking down to you like that. And they may say that you’re you’re being obnoxious and you have a problem. And they might even say, Stop bullying me. Stop bullying me, Bill, and I’m not bullying them. I’m saying they need to stop what they’re doing with me, and they’ll say, You’re the bully. So playing the victim is another way projecting what they’re doing onto the other person, like, stop bullying me. Bill, I’m not bullying you. I’m setting limits on your bullying of me. Well, I would never bully you, Bill. And then they keep projecting what they’re doing onto me, and they may point to other people around us and say, See how Bill’s treating me, you know, and they play the victim. And next thing you know, the whole people around think that I’m being a bad guy, and they get away with it that way because they’re really good at projection and good at playing the victim. So these are some of the patterns. How do
 
Michael Hingson ** 28:10
you deal with that, though? Well, you
 
Bill Eddy ** 28:14
first of all need to be taken assertive approach, so don’t become aggressive and start yelling at them. No, you really are bullying me. You’re a real jerk. Instead, you say that’s not true. And if other people are around, you say, just, everybody know it’s not true. I’m trying to set limits on his behavior towards me, because he’s really harassing me. And so explain what’s happening. Be assertive, so you stick up for yourself, but don’t be aggressive, because now it looks like you are being the bully. And some some people asked me on one of the interviews I had, the guy said, at what point do you punch the bully in the nose? And I said, Well, you’re going to have that thought, but don’t act on it, because when you do that, now you look like the bully. So you don’t want to be aggressive, but you don’t want to be passive and let them just pick on you and run you into the ground. You want to say, Hey, that’s not okay, or I’m going to end this conversation. So you assert yourself to protect yourself without trying to harm the other person, and that’s what assertive is. So I really recommend the assertive approach.
 
Michael Hingson ** 29:33
And again, it gets back to you have to learn to understand and assess yourself and develop the tools that will allow you to do that
 
Bill Eddy ** 29:46
exactly and and strengthen yourself where you’re not experienced or not skilled, and learn the skills to protect yourself. I think it’s you know, all of us. Most of us grew up maintaining ourselves, not being too extreme, and yet sticking up for ourselves and being self managed. But bullies aren’t self managed, so we’re going to have to manage them for them. And so that’s the new age we’re in. The new world we’re in is we need skills to manage bullies, and we can develop those, and that’s part of what I talk about at the end of the book. The last chapter is a lot of skills that people can learn to manage bullies and protect themselves.
 
Michael Hingson ** 30:38
Well, how did you you’ve talked about a little bit, but I’d love to to learn a little bit more about how did you really end up deciding that this was a calling that you had to deal with and that you’ve devoted so much time to? I think it really
 
Bill Eddy ** 30:54
got started as a as a workplace endeavor when I went from being a therapist to being a lawyer, so I wanted to do mediation and conflict resolution, and went to law school, and when I started practicing law after 12 years as a therapist, including in psychiatric hospitals, I started seeing the same behavior in family court. You know there be mom and dad are fighting over custody of their child, and the judge is listening to their arguments and looking frustrated. And I’m going, Well, the problem here is one of the parents probably has a personality disorder, and so they’re not really being that sensitive to the child and and the other parent seems to be pretty reasonable, but you don’t know, sometimes people that look reasonable might be like anti social under the surface. And so I started noticing and paying attention to these behavior patterns and how they showed up as high conflict families, and that’s the term that the courts were using high conflict families. So I started saying, You shouldn’t talk about high conflict families. Should talk about high conflict personalities, because not everybody in the family necessarily has that. Maybe it’s Mom, maybe it’s dad, like, say, a domestic violence case, dad might have a borderline personality or an anti social personality, and that’s driving his violent behavior, and yet he’s conning the court by saying, look at her, she’s a mess, and everything I’m doing is just fine. I’m the reasonable person here, but they’re not behind the scenes, and so there’d be these patterns of behavior, and I said, courts got to figure this stuff out, otherwise you’re punishing the victim of a domestic violence perpetrator unfairly and unhelpfully, and you’re teaching the child that this behavior is acceptable. So I had all this information that I knew from having been, you know, a therapist, a licensed clinical social worker, and I found myself applying it to family court cases, and wanting to educate other lawyers, judges, mediators and therapists about these dynamics in family court. And that’s when I started writing about high conflict personalities and eventually talking more about bullies who are the most high conflict personalities. So that’s kind of how that evolved. That was 1993 is when I became I started practicing family law after 12 years as a therapist. And so that’s when this stuff really opened my eyes, to wait a minute, people don’t realize what they’re dealing with, and they’re not going to solve this with a child support order. They’re going to have to, you know, get somebody some treatment or understand that there’s these personalities driving behavior, rather than legal issues
 
Michael Hingson ** 34:20
you have developed, I think, or have begun creating, something called the new ways for families. Method, Yes, uh huh. Tell me about that. I read that in your bio, and that sounded pretty fascinating, yeah,
 
Bill Eddy ** 34:35
and I’m pretty proud of it. So we started high conflict Institute in 2008 myself and a colleague, Megan Hunter, and we wanted to educate family law professionals, but we also wanted to help parents in high conflict, divorces and custody disputes. And so I developed a counseling method. A specific to divorcing parents with disputes over their children. And I, I was speaking at a conference of judges, and they said, What kind of counseling order should we make for these high conflict families to get them out of court and settling down, and they said, Well, you can’t do the traditional counseling where you say talk about your feelings, because people with high conflict personalities will talk about their feelings forever without changing anything. So you want them to learn new ways of doing things. And so we decided we’re going to call the method new ways for families and six counseling sessions focused on learning four big skills, flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior and checking yourself rather than being busy checking everybody else. And so we we got that the judges to start ordering that, and we said, order both parents to learn these skills so you don’t picking a bad guy. It’s going to help both parents, whoever’s you know, maybe it’s a domestic violence case, they get domestic violence treatment, but also learn these skills so they can work together. Cases where a child resists being with the other parent because of one parent bad mathing the other parent interfering, what they call alienation, or parental alienation. So all of these could be benefited by this counseling approach. Short term, six individual sessions, three parent child sessions for each parent, and we started seeing cases stay out of court that used to keep coming back. We saw people calming down. The judges really liked that. We created an online class to teach those same skills in 12 sessions. Then we developed coaching, three coaching sessions with the online class to make to give a chance to practice, but keep the cost down, because just three sessions, and so that’s that’s been evolving since 2009 so for the last 15 years, and we estimate about eight or 9000 parents have gone through learning these skills, some better than others, but enough that the judges think they’re worthwhile, and they keep ordering this. But this is it depends on where there’s trained counselors or coaches to get the more intensive approach. But the online class is available anywhere worldwide, so judges sometimes just order that from, you know, maybe they’re in Utah or something. And there’s no counselors that we’ve trained there yet. They can always order the online class. And I think they actually are, because I spoke in Utah a month ago about this. So that’s that’s the method, and I feel pretty proud of it. Well,
 
Michael Hingson ** 38:18
it it’s understandable, and I can appreciate why you’re why you’re excited about doing it, and that it’s that it’s clearly working. What are some really good examples of how successful the whole method and the whole process has been? You have some good stories about it.
 
Bill Eddy ** 38:40
Yeah. So one of my favorite examples, it’s a case where a 15 year old girl refused to see her father after the divorce, and it seemed like a case where mom had been saying enough negative things, the girl absorbed that and then said, I don’t want to see dad, and mom tolerated that, but of course, dad didn’t. So took mom to court and told the judge, Mom’s doing something to make the girl not come. So rather than deciding that mom’s all bad, the judge said, well, then I want to order new ways for families, and that’s six individual counseling sessions and three parent child sessions, so judge orders that and each of the parents goes through six counseling sessions with a workbook, so it focuses them on learning particular skills, to manage their emotions, To keep their thinking flexible, to moderate their behavior, like we teach them how to write emails so that they’re reasonable instead of escalating conflict. And so they both went through that individual then it’s time for the parent child sessions, and since Mom was the favorite parent. Parent, we had the parent child counselor meet with mom and the child first, and Mom taught the girl about flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior and checking yourself, and then prepared the girl with the counselor for the next week when she’s going to meet with dad and so who she hasn’t seen for a year and says she hates him, but there’s no real, clear reason for that, and that’s why it might be alienation. It might be the bad mouthing that got absorbed by the girl. So the next week, mom brings the girl to the counseling center, and girl agrees to go in and meets dad and the counselor and sits down, and the girl tells dad that he’s a horrible person. He’s ruined her life. He’s done everything wrong and just this whole list of awfuls. And because he’s been through the counseling method, he listens quietly and attentively, and then he says, Thank you. And she says, What do you mean? Thank you. I just said, you’re a terrible person. And he says, I said, Thank you. Because I’m glad that we’re talking. I think this is good. This is good for us to be talking. Is there more that you want to tell me, and I guess there was some more. And then basically they reconciled and agreed that they would have dinner together once a week. Now it wasn’t a 5050, parenting plan like he would have preferred, but, and I don’t know where it went from there, but he did have regular dinners with her, and they communicated. So it reconnected their relationship, and so it gave a structure for that to happen in, and that’s what new ways for families does not every case where someone a child resists a parent has worked with new ways for families that, you know, one parent has found a way to sabotage it and block it, but by and large, we’ve had, had some, some good success with moderate cases like that.
 
Michael Hingson ** 42:16
Yeah, well, one of the questions that comes to mind, as you’ve talked about, excuse me, high conflict personalities. Is that something that can actually be fixed? Can people get over having to always be in conflict like that? It
 
Bill Eddy ** 42:36
really depends, I think, a lot, on which of the personalities. So I think I mentioned Cluster B personality disorders, borderline, narcissistic, anti social, histrionic. So borderline personality disorder, people are hearing more about that, where they have wide mood swings, sudden, intense anger, fear of abandonment, all of that. And this used to be thought of as primarily women, but it’s now seen as probably about half and half. And men who are physically abusive often have this personality style, and they strike out because they’re afraid they’re losing their partner, which of course, makes their partner want to leave a little bit more, but that’s one of the more treatable personalities. And there’s a method called DBT dialectical behavior therapy, which is having some good success at treating people with borderline personality disorder. So there’s that at the other extreme is anti social personality disorder, which is the hardest one to treat, and I don’t know of a consistently successful method that treats and that’s like maybe 40% of prisoners have that personality, they get out of prison and they commit another crime, been back back in prison, they have a pattern of behavior, which is what a personality disorder is, is it’s a stuck pattern of behavior, just enduring and repeating and all of that. So I would say people with that personality is extremely unlikely they’re going to change. But people with borderline, there is hope for and many people outgrow the diagnosis after going through DBT. So that’s the most hopeful and the least hopeful range. Narcissists and histrionics are somewhere in the middle of that? Yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 44:44
well, something that comes to mind, I kind of think I know the answer, but it’s still a question worth asking. Colleges and universities are made up of lots of people who are studying supposed to be pretty intelligent and so on, but we have bullies there. Why? You.
 
Bill Eddy ** 44:59
I think because we have them everywhere. So if, say 10% five to 10% of people are bullies, I think you’re going to see them in colleges. Has nothing to do with intelligence. They may be brilliant bullies and very not smart bullies. So the whole range of severity exists. I think that college and other organizations like so, higher education, health care, churches, synagogues, mosques, that these are welcoming communities. These are helping communities. And so bullies get away with more in these kinds of communities because everybody’s trying to be nice and bending over backwards to give them another chance. And so not to say they shouldn’t get another chance, but they shouldn’t get another chance and another chance and another chance and another chance. That’s the thing I preach against. You give somebody a chance. If it the same problem comes up twice, what is it? Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me. I got to do something if it’s happening again, because that means it’s a pattern, and especially if there was consequences for the first time and they still did it again, that’s a sign this may be behavior that’s going to be resistant to change
 
Michael Hingson ** 46:37
well, and that makes perfect sense. It’s kind of where I thought you’d probably go with it, but it does make perfect sense. And there, as you’ve said, there are bullies everywhere. And the reality is we’re, we’re going to find that there are just some people who are going to be bullies.
 
Bill Eddy ** 46:58
I think that’s the answer that it’s kind of sad to come to that conclusion, but it’s also enlightening, because then, you know, you can’t just change them. This pattern is so stuck, so persistent, they have to have a different approach. You can’t talk them out of it. Yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 47:20
and there’s something to be said for love, but at the same time, you need to learn to control you and your situations. And
 
Bill Eddy ** 47:31
yeah, it’s kind of the tough love concept.
 
Michael Hingson ** 47:37
What do you do if your supervisor is a bully? We talked a little bit about bullies in the office and so on. But what if it’s your boss who is the bully?
 
Bill Eddy ** 47:46
I think that you know, to some extent, if you can be assertive and say, you know, boss, you just gave me three assignments that are all due on Friday, and realistically, I can only get one of them done. Which one is the priority that you kind of assert yourself without trying to dominate your boss or alienate your boss. So you say something like, you know, can you give me some guidance here with these three projects, I can only get one done. Maybe someone else could help with another. So speaking up, presenting options, and say, you know that’s one possibility. Another is you could give me overtime, and I’m willing to stay late if there’s overtime. What? Whatever you may be able to speak up to some extent. But what we get a lot of our consultations are people that it’s way beyond that the boss is just really out to get them, maybe trying to push them out of the team. And so we talk about who else you can go to, and it may be HR, it may be another department head. One of the things I say is make sure you start talking to somebody, maybe a friend, family member, so you’re not just stewing in the fact that you’re being bullied because people’s self esteem just really goes down if they don’t feel safe to talk to anybody. You talk to somebody and they say, oh, yeah, that happened to me once. That’s terrible. You know, you shouldn’t have to go through that. Let’s talk about what you can do well that helps people feel a whole lot better, that there isn’t something about them that makes them be the target of a bully. A lot of people think, you know, what did I do to cause this? And you didn’t do anything. Bullies pick on everybody, but they keep picking on the people that let them,
 
Michael Hingson ** 49:52
and that’s the real key, isn’t it? It’s all about you let them do it. You don’t find ways to deal with. The issue, and the result is they’re going to continue to do it, because they can
 
Bill Eddy ** 50:04
Right exactly. And people get depressed. They get stomach aches, headaches, they can’t sleep, they avoid coming into work, they get disciplined, they get in trouble themselves. And that’s a lot of why I wrote the book to help people know, you know, no one deserves to be bullied. This is wrong. This shouldn’t be happening to you. Now look at what your choices are, what your options are.
 
Michael Hingson ** 50:32
We have an ever increasing number of startup companies in in the world, and more entrepreneurs or starting their own companies and so on. And so why is it that a lot of startups have a high powered innovator, or someone at the top like that, who is a bully?
 
Bill Eddy ** 50:54
It seems to be that the personality of entrepreneurs that go getter startup includes a lot of the ingredients of personalities, of bullies. So first of all, believing that your ideas are superior, that no matter what other people think you should keep going, that you’re smarter than all of them. Don’t stop because the first two people said this was a dumb idea, and so they kind of have some insulation against that, that they’re willing to persist, you know, I know this is a good idea, but they can also be aggressive. So they’re out there approaching, you know, venture capitalists and and people to endorse them, people to do what they say, people to give them a lot of money so they have. They’re skilled at presenting their ideas aggressively and probably an exaggerated belief in themselves. But that seems to work in the startup business, people are persuaded by charm and intelligence and go, Oh, this guy just seems really brilliant. Well, that’s because he told you he’s brilliant. He’s actually a bully. And there are stories like that, like what we saw, and I talk about it in my book with Theranos, the blood draw sis and it really wasn’t what it was made out to be. It was a brilliant idea, but they couldn’t implement it, but they pretended that they could, and so they got lots of money, lots of respect, write ups in the big magazines. Elizabeth Holmes was seen as the next Steve Jobs. She lowered her voice. She was a con artist. She may have believed in her product, but she was willing to bend so many rules that she ended up going to prison. But entrepreneurs have that drive and that persuasion and persistence and aggressiveness, and that works with getting a startup going, but it often doesn’t work with maintaining a company and an organization. And I spoke to investors for startups, mostly healthcare startups and and they said, we’ve got a lot of bullies here. What? What do we do? We gave them some tools and tips for how to manage, you know, soothe their ego by setting limits on them and and to spot them sooner and decide, can should we invest with this person, or are they over the top? So it’s a it’s a particular field where having having an almost bully personality is successful, but having a bully personality eventually blows up. So
 
Michael Hingson ** 53:57
since you mentioned him, just out of curiosity was Steve Jobs a bully.
 
Bill Eddy ** 54:01
I think he was, and I think he was successful because of his management team, because they did, in fact, learn how to set limits on him and rein in his worst behaviors. Because, like, There’s one story, and I think I have it in the book, where he was going to fire a division of 200 people because the project wasn’t coming along fast enough. And so he’s like, I’m going to fire them. They’re useless, they’re idiots, they’re terrible. And someone on the management team says, Hey, Steve, let’s go for a walk. Let’s go for a walk, because he liked to go for walks and talks. So they go for a walk, and an hour later, they come back, and he’s not going to fire anybody. He’s just going to give them some more specific instructions. And so he. His worst behaviors were restrained by his management team. And I think that’s that’s a work but at any given time, things were on the verge of blowing up. And he did get fired as the head of Apple right 1990s but they helped him enough, he was reigned in enough that he was successful in the 2000s hugely, six. I mean, I don’t know if they’re the biggest value company right now, but I think when he died, they were probably the most valuable company. So, yeah, this can happen. But the key is that he was restrained by his management team, and unrestrained bully is going to cause
 
Michael Hingson ** 55:49
damage. I wonder though, if, as he matured, if he did, I’m assuming that he did actually, if some of the bullying tendencies really did go away, and then he changed a little bit at least, of of how he functioned. I mean, clearly he was a strong personality, right? And clearly he was the innovator of so many products. And so I can see where personality might get in the way, because he wants it done now. He wants it done this way. But I wonder if over time, he became a little bit less of of a bully, and maybe it was just the management restraint, or maybe that was a part of it, but it’s I think you’re right. Probably was a little bit better as time went on. I think you’re
 
Bill Eddy ** 56:38
right, because when he came back to Apple after he was fired and tried some other projects, I think that he learned to focus more and to be a little less disrespectful. And I remember I read his biography, I think of Walter Isaacson, and my conclusion was that he was definitely narcissistic, but I don’t think he had a narcissistic personality disorder, which is an enduring pattern of self defeating behavior. I think he had traits and that he learned to manage those traits primarily because his management team, people around him taught him he needs to restrain those so he’s an example of where you can have someone with a bullying personality and rein them in and have them be quite successful. So I think that’s what happened there,
 
Michael Hingson ** 57:39
and he would see that, in fact, it worked to change how you’re operating a little bit. And maybe it was, maybe it was always underneath. But at the same time, he learned that, hey, working the way I’ve been isn’t really as effective as what I’m seeing happen when I operate this way. Yeah,
 
Bill Eddy ** 58:01
what’s interesting about him is he was particularly collaborative. So he liked working with other people. He liked he liked people with pushback, people that would disagree, present another point of view. So they could, they could go back and forth, although if other people had a really brilliant idea, he started thinking it was his idea. Yeah, but he he really had had an ability to work with other people that a lot of bullies don’t have. And I think that may be why you’re quite right, that he did mature some he did restrain himself a little more and became able to be brilliant. Imagine how many other brilliant people might really contribute if they had that balance of a really good management team to rein them in, but some of our most narcissistic individuals don’t pay attention and often ruin, ruin their own creations. I think of like Enron, as our company that was brilliant, but probably had two people with personality disorders on top, one anti social and one narcissistic, and they reinforced each other’s bad traits. And I think that’s why that went off the rails. Yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 59:29
well, and the, the other thing that comes to mind is, then you have another very successful person, Bill Gates, yeah, and I don’t, I don’t know. Do you think that he was a bully?
 
Bill Eddy ** 59:43
I think that he certainly engaged in bullying behavior when he was the head of Microsoft. And I remember hearing about, I don’t know if it was a recording or a transcript in a book, but he was at a meeting, and he was just very distant. Painful to the thinking of other people in the meeting, like, like, almost ready to, like, drive them out of the room. And you know, what are you doing here? You’re an idiot and stuff like that. And I must say, I read Paul Allen’s book, which was idea, man, I think, is what it was called, and and he, he had enough examples in there that I think Bill Gates was also a bully. But I think that again, there was enough of a management team to keep him from destroying what he was building. And I must say, one of his most brilliant decisions was marrying Melinda French, and she turned him into a philanthropist. And he’s donated, you know, billions of dollars, but he’s also created things to help poor people. He’s He’s fought malaria, I think, and trying to get toilets where you don’t have electricity, but you can have self managed toilets. And he’s in, he’s put energy into these projects. So I would say, somehow the edge, the bullying edge, was taken off, so he actually could work with other people and and have some empathy for them. So again, he might be someone who didn’t have a personality disorder, but may have had some traits, but somehow the balance worked out, and the more people realize that you may have brilliant people around you, if you can rein them in enough, we may have a better society because of some of these difficult people.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:01:53
Well, clearly, Bill Gates had a very strong personality and and that’s fine, but I do agree, I don’t think that he really was a bully as such, in the way that we view it, for a lot of people as we’ve been discussing it, it doesn’t mean that he didn’t ever have any bullying kinds of behavior, but overall, he was successful, and is successful. And as you said, marrying Melinda has certainly made a significant difference in his outlook, and he’s doing such great work, and you can’t argue with that.
 
Bill Eddy ** 1:02:28
Yeah, and the fact that he’s now divorced from Belinda, and I think that might have been more her idea than his, he still seems to be continuing on with his uh, philanthropy and doing works to help health health care, especially for people in really poor countries. So I think, and she changed his personality maybe a teeny little bit, and
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:02:54
climate change and climate
 
Bill Eddy ** 1:02:56
change for sure. Yeah, he’s a big picture guy. He’s one of our most deepest thinkers in the big picture, and we need people like that. So my goal isn’t to eliminate bullies, it’s to restrain them enough so they don’t harm other people, but ideally, contribute to society
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:19
and they can. And it’s a process. Well, this has been fun. I want to thank you for being here and talking about all this is, How do other people deal with it when they see somebody being bullied?
 
Bill Eddy ** 1:03:34
Well, bystanders need to speak up more and be assertive as well, and that’s part of the cover of my book. Is a bully fish chasing a little fish who’s about to grab and eat but gets distracted by a whole school of little fish chasing behind him who look bigger than him. And that’s the bystanders. And bystanders need to speak up and say, hey, that’s enough, Joe, or hey, that’s enough, Jane. Or cut it out. Leave her alone. That when people do that, bullies often stop because they think they’re getting away with something, or they’re not even thinking they’re just automatically bullying somebody. And when that happens, they realize, uh oh, my public may not be happy with me, and I don’t want to alienate my public so you can have an influence as a bystander, and are encouraged to be assertive and not intimidated. And the more bystanders support each other, that much easier it is to stop bullies.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:04:43
Good advice and so cool. Well, again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been great. I hope all of you listening out there have found a lot of good tools that you can take away and use. Lot of good life lessons here by any standard you. I really so I really appreciate you taking the time to be with Bill and me today on unstoppable mindset. Love to get your thoughts, so please feel free to email me. Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hinkson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, N, Michael hingson.com/podcast, and wherever you are, give us a five star rating. We love those ratings on the podcast. We appreciate that, and would greatly value you you doing that. And again, your thoughts and for all of you, including Bill, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we’d love to hear from you. We don’t really tend to discriminate and say, Oh, that’s a bad idea just just saying bill, but so we’d love to really hear about more people you think ought to be, whoever you are on the podcast, and we will talk with them and make a plan to go forward with them. So don’t ever hesitate to point out someone who you think ought to come on and again. Bill, I want to thank you one last time for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we appreciate your time today. Well,
 
Bill Eddy ** 1:06:21
thanks so much, Michael. I’ve really enjoyed it too. We got into some stuff deeper than I have in some of my other interviews. So we really covered the covered the gamut. And I think, I think people will find that this is a topic that becomes more and more relevant every year. So thanks for getting the word out there
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:06:41
well, and I hope that people will buy your book and and all that too. Yeah, we have to get the book sales out there, right.
 
Bill Eddy ** 1:06:49
That’s right. Thank you for that.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:06:57
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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