Episode 242 – Unstoppable Intercultural Expert and Life-Long Learner with Cassandra Mok

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Cassandra Mok grew up in Australia. She was the daughter of Malaysian parents and Chinese grandparents. She will tell you that her childhood was a bit of a challenge working through the values and norms of her parents that often were quite a bit different from the Australian life and people around her. All her experiences gave her a keen interest in the blending of cultures which also led to her traveling to various countries.
Our conversation covers topics like how to mix cultures in a positive way. We also discuss a lot of topics about how people can learn to be better leaders through what clearly is utilizing teamwork and trust to create better working environments within organizations.
Cassandra is an executive coach with a broad world view that helps her interact with people who come to her from many different perspectives and attitudes. Clearly, she has developed a mindset that is unstoppable which she attempts to instill in those with whom she works.
About the Guest:
Cassandra Mok is a human; although as a child, she was often asked what the weather was like on her planet. Born in Australia, she comes from a heritage of migration as her parents were born in Malaysia to her Chinese grandparents. As such, she grew up in a blend of cultures, negotiating between different norms and social expectations. This made her highly aware of how essential intercultural communication and understanding are to building effective relationships. 
As an adult, she followed her dream to experience other societies and ways of life. Through her studies and career, she has lived in Cambodia, Canada, China, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Mexico, Nepal, Singapore, and Vanuatu. Her professional experience has mostly been in international development – on poverty alleviation and social & behavioural change programs as well as organisational change management. However more recently she has been working with startups, seeking to create social impact through entrepreneurship and innovation.
Cassandra is a complete nerd and loves exploring the intricacies about many aspects of society, cultural evolution, group dynamics, human behaviour, science and technology. Her research focus for her Masters was about how international legal frameworks affect agrobiodiversity. While studying her Bachelors of Communications in Social Inquiry and in International Studies (Mexico), she did research on why young Mexicans weren’t using contraceptives. Additionally, Cassandra has a Postgraduate Certificate in Organisational Coaching and Leadership and is certified Executive Coach – helping managers effectively implement change initiatives and to become inspiring leaders.
Cassandra is passionate about collaborating with others on “wicked” problems through harnessing the power of their people and systems effectively to create positive social change. She loves meeting people working on interesting things to figure out complex challenges so feel free to reach out.
Ways to connect with Cassandra:
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/cassandramok
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson ** 01:20
Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet today we get unexpected, I guarantee you. Today we get to interview a lady who, in the bio that she sent me started it by saying that she was human. Although people often asked her what the weather was like on her planet when she was a child. I don’t know what to say about that. But you know, if if she’s from another planet, we’ll find out about it and see what language she speaks to us. But I would like you all to meet Cassandra Mok who lives well around the world. She started in Australia today. She’s in Singapore. She’s lived in a variety of countries, and really has a great appreciation. And she will tell us for international cultures, and finding ways to get people in cultures to communicate and interact with each other. And with that introduction to Cassandra, thank you and welcome to unstoppable mindset.
Cassandra Mok ** 02:24
I’m really excited to be here.
Michael Hingson ** 02:26
Well, we’re glad you’re here. So let’s get to this business about what was the weather like on your planet? Tell us about Cassandra as a child and growing up and some of that a little bit? Yeah,
Cassandra Mok ** 02:37
ah, so I was born in Australia. For those people who are watching, I don’t have what is quintessentially an Australian face. Often it’s perceived that you know, you have these blonde beach people is the typical Australian stereotype. My parents are actually from Malaysia, but my grandparents are originally from China or Singapore. So I grew up in this hodgepodge of different values and expectations about what was normal, what was behavior, what was being good, all of these sorts of things. And it’s, it’s a mix, it’s not just the Australian, it’s also the Chinese, but that different kinds of Chinese because Malaysian Chinese isn’t the same as mainland Chinese. Right? Yeah. So that’s, that’s a little bit about me. I think that that’s probably one of the reasons why I was always sort of thought of as naughty by my parents and weird by people at school. You know, things that I did were different. We lived in a lot of places in rural Australia, where we were often the only Asian family in town. So, you know, there is no, you know, frame of reference for people to sort of, sort of be like, oh, there’s something different, you know, there’s glow people don’t all do the same things. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 04:18
So what did you do? That was naughty? Ah,
Cassandra Mok ** 04:22
okay. So Australians have very independent minded and we swear a lot doing, trying to make sure that I didn’t swear a lot in this podcast. And, you know, tend to be a little bit troublemaker. There’s a little bit of a rebellious culture in Australia. And the typical Asian parenting style, especially back then, was very, you know, you should listen to your parents. You should be obedient. You should do what you’re told. You should follow the rules. And again, the rules are different. Ah, so you know, then you have to follow these unspoken rules about how to behave, and you don’t have other people to comedies. So when people grow up in a culture that makes matches with their parents expectations, you learn some of those rules by watching other people. Whereas when you’re living in an environment where the behavior of people is very different from what your parents expect, and you are following the things that you’re learning at school, or watching others, or the other kids and how they behave and interact, then your parents think you are naughty. So I was very independent minded, very independent minded as a kid.
Michael Hingson ** 05:44
So there was a little bit of a culture clash there and your parents had a little bit of a difficult time, sort of reconciling you and and behavior from school, and just what kids would do in Australia, as opposed to what they would expect you to do.
Cassandra Mok ** 06:04
Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think when my dad went to university in Australia, so he’s much more Australian eyes and likes a lot of the Australian things, but there’s also a difference between being something and, you know, expectations people have in their head, you know, so talking back is definitely not seen as something you do, particularly back then and in Asian culture. Whereas, yeah, I had a very sharp tongue. So yeah, it did, it did definitely cause some some tension in my parents when I was growing up. But luckily, for me, I think my parents would become more Australian, but I think they also recognize that, you know, that sort of independence and that independent thinking, has sort of helped me as an adult, whereas as a kid, I was probably very difficult. But as an adult, makes me much more resilient and much more problem solving.
Michael Hingson ** 07:01
It sounds like they did learn to cope with it some
Cassandra Mok ** 07:07
told me to just cope, I think it’s also appreciate, you know, coping is sort of like tolerance, you put up with something that I really like, and don’t get me wrong, you know, I think that yeah, but there’s, you know, that exactly, the appreciation is very much like, oh, okay, this thing that I used to think was bad, I now understand the flavor of flavors of it. I understand how it’s beneficial. I understand how useful it is. So I think my parents, so become more appreciative of some of the, the skills and perspectives as I’ve gotten older. Well,
Michael Hingson ** 07:47
so. Did you go to college in Australia? Or, or did you do college? Or what did you do? Yeah,
Cassandra Mok ** 07:53
so after high school, I went to university. That’s what we call them in Australia. And I did most of my university in Australia. But I also went to Mexico, because I just wanted to live somewhere completely different. I think one of my motivations to also choose Mexico was that prominent Australian perspective. For example, in the mass global media, Australia is seen as kangaroos, and deserts and beaches. And while that is somewhat true, it’s not true for every Australian, it’s not true for every Australian environment. Not all of us have kangaroos in our front yard, some of us do. And so for me, I was really fascinated by Mexico, which began in Australian media was very much portrayed through probably a North American lens English speaking North American lens, which was desert kept us as big hats siestas. And there was something fundamentally that I didn’t feel oh, that’s, that’s probably not true. So what is it like in Mexico? And what do Mexicans actually think? And what is the Mexican way of life that isn’t a almost a parody of very specific visual elements. So I wanted to experience that. So I spent a year and a half in Mexico.
Michael Hingson ** 09:16
So when did when did you do that? What level of college were you at when you did that?
Cassandra Mok ** 09:22
So I did international studies as part of my degree. So in Australia, we have these things called double degrees, where you do two degrees at the same time. And so that was my international studies component. So it was the last few years of my degree.
Michael Hingson ** 09:38
Was that a bachelor’s or a master’s? Or did you go into it? Upper or advanced graduate work?
Cassandra Mok ** 09:46
Yeah, so that was in my undergraduate but I ended up doing a marketer’s later on. And yeah. Further, further academic studies later on.
Michael Hingson ** 09:55
Did you do that in Australia or somewhere else? In
Cassandra Mok ** 09:58
Australia In Australia I had this grand idea to do it somewhere else. But at the time, I had moved back to Australia and and was getting my master’s. So spent time doing that. Eat my graduate certificate. I did it during COVID. So, technically, I was sitting in Cambodia, but it was from an Australian institution. So when people say did you study in Australia? I tend to say yes, even though I never set foot on campus in Australia. Yeah, but it was from an Australian institution. So
Michael Hingson ** 10:35
well, you lived, you’ve lived in a number of countries now you haven’t been to the US, or have you been here at all?
Cassandra Mok ** 10:41
I visited. I have a few friends. Some who were from the US Originally, the others who have migrated. So I’ve been to the US I’ve been to I was in Texas one year for the Fourth of July. That was a
Michael Hingson ** 10:59
that’s an interesting time to be there. And interesting.
Cassandra Mok ** 11:03
The supermarket was fascinating. I’ve spent some time in sort of the New England area. California, I think I’ve been to Colorado. It was a while ago. Don’t quiz me about things that I remember. I mean, there was there was an interesting culture shocks, even small things, I would say, Okay, I’ll give you a really silly story is that when I was young, sometimes we would get these fridge magnets and you get fridge magnets and all sorts of food. And to me, it was always really peculiar because the cheese magnet would always be very orange, and the egg magnet, the yolk would be very yellow. And as a kid, I was very confused. Because in Australia, it’s the other way around. Our egg yolks are very orange. And our cheese is quite light in color. And my brain really what what, like, clearly they can do the colors. Why had they made this up? In the USA? I was like, Oh, your cheese is orange. And your eggs are a much lighter yellow color. And so it was little things like that that just a bit like oh, that’s, that’s different. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 12:16
Well, so you. You mentioned the supermarket was out on the Fourth of July.
Cassandra Mok ** 12:23
Around there, I think I’ve been to a few supermarkets because I’ve traveled with friends or hung out with friends in their supermarket. So yeah, different different foods, different products. I think, one, one of the times I went I think I went to one of the really big supermarkets and was just astounded by how many things that were. And specific things. I think I had never seen bread that hadn’t been cut the crust cut off already, before I went to the US. And I was like this is the thing.
Michael Hingson ** 12:55
When we lived in when we lived in New Jersey, and we lived there for six years, one of the things that amazed us as opposed to California and was this in California, there’s an aisle that has bread and other baked goods and so on. In the markets that we generally frequented in New Jersey, they had a whole aisle of nothing but different kinds of bread, different shapes, and just all sorts of different breads. It was amazing. We never experienced that kind of thing before. And then on top of everything else. When big holidays came like Thanksgiving, for example. It was amazing how many people waited to the last second to go and shop. We went down one day on the day before Thanksgiving. And the lines were incredible. We never saw lines like that out here. And we thought the same every year, people just waited till the last minute, or they decided they need more who knows. But it was incredible. But everyone got along, which was also the other part about it. Oh, planning?
Cassandra Mok ** 14:07
Do you think it was planning or panic buying? No. It’s much smaller.
Michael Hingson ** 14:13
I don’t know. I don’t know that it was either of those. I think it’s just the way they did it. And, and people maybe they waited at see who I was going to come for Thanksgiving or whatever. But they, it all worked out. And everyone got along, which was really great. There weren’t a lot of the kinds of things that we we hear about where people don’t always get along today in markets and so on. But back when we were there, which was 1996 to the beginning of 2002 people got along really well in the markets and everyone understood it. So it was okay. But we enjoyed
Cassandra Mok ** 14:52
it. I think that there’s this concept of scarcity, right? That you know if If If markets or people were planned for it, there was enough things to go around, it normally isn’t a bit of a problem. But I think that these days, there’s also the perception of scarcity. Because we’re so used to having everything whenever we want, especially in developed countries, that when we don’t get something we want. And also, we have this added factor where instant gratification is so quickly resolve you, you order it online, and it shows up in half an hour, that people don’t tolerate unpleasant emotions, or don’t tolerate the immediacy of getting what they want, as well. Whereas before, especially before globalization became very strong. You only got certain foods and certain times and once it was done, it was done. And you didn’t always get it. And so that ability to kind of be like, Oh, we didn’t get it. So okay. You know, we just didn’t get it, I think is much different from now. This expectation, or, yeah, this, I guess it’s an expectation really, that, you know, when I want it, I can get it. And I can get it now. And we marketed that way too. Right? Yeah. Constantly to control.
Michael Hingson ** 16:13
And if something happens, so you can’t get it right now, then people get very testy nowadays.
Cassandra Mok ** 16:20
Yeah, yeah, we somehow might not be so good at managing feelings anymore. Especially negative feelings, right? Being able to sit with discomfort being able to sit with, again, a lot of times, it might not necessarily be pain, it might not be, but it’s just not pleasant. And we want to get rid of that unpleasant feeling as quickly as possible. And how will we do it, we will lash out, we will buy something we will, you know, who knows? Do all sorts of things.
Michael Hingson ** 16:56
Do you find that that kind of behavior exists all over or just in some places?
Cassandra Mok ** 17:03
I think I think it’s becoming more common across the globe, where there is shorter attention spans on media and the ability to get what we want when we want it. I think that there are still a lot of places in the world. That that is not necessarily true. I before. A few years ago, I was living in Cambodia. And there was the expectation that if you saw something in the supermarket that you liked, you should buy it. Because there was no guarantee that in two weeks, it would be there again, and they don’t have it so much. You know, I think there was a lot more when you go to market seasonal fruit, a lot less importation from different ends of the planet. So you knew what was in season, because all of a sudden there would be a whole lot of sellers selling that one product. So I think that people who are living closer to the land, I guess, is one way of putting it as some people would put on the table that they’re buying things and then we’ll look from that and a source from them or more local area are probably a bit more accustomed to not having certain things and they’re aware of not having certain things in it. That’s just the way it is. Whereas a little bit more patience. Yeah, right, or it’s just not that time of the year. Whereas I think that for people who are ordering from very large supermarkets who constantly have a supply of everything, you can get strawberries in the dead of winter, you know, and so it’s like, well, why can’t I have my store because I really want my strawberries, something like that,
Michael Hingson ** 18:50
even though the quality might not be nearly as good, which is, you know, the other issue. So yeah, you can get your strawberries anytime of the year, but gee, getting them in the summer and the when the harvest actually occurs, they also tend to be generally a lot better. And I think that’s another thing that people don’t notice that as much because they’re just used to getting it any anytime they want.
Cassandra Mok ** 19:10
Exactly our attention spans I think are a lot shorter because of media as well. We have seen over the last few decades that advertising even on television, let’s not get into social media and things like that. But even television ads are getting shorter and shorter and shorter, you know, you have 10s that come blocks, one second blocks, things like that was before as used to be a minute. I think even the shortest ones were 30 seconds. So people’s attention spans. And you know, immediacy is very different. And I think that as as a species, we want to solve those itches. And we have started a system that that kind of scratches that itch to the point where we don’t have to sit with
Michael Hingson ** 19:56
it. So what kind of experiences have you had in your life that have sort of It affected or changed some of your limiting beliefs, your self limiting beliefs. Ah,
Cassandra Mok ** 20:06
it’s interesting way you get self limiting beliefs from right. So I’ve got a story I can share with you. When I was a kid, my parents went through a phase of trying to make their own bread. I remember as a child, sampling things, and I don’t know if their bread was that bad. Or when you’re a kid, you just like the soft, soft stuff. I just remember being this terrible. bread making must be so difficult. I don’t think I will ever be able to make bread. And that was probably a kid. And I didn’t really think about it, because I think my parents gave up on that habit and whatever. And then I had this job working in Vanuatu. So for people who don’t know, Vanuatu is an island in the Pacific. And I was working on community development programs. So we were living in a community that had no electric, electricity, no running water. And we had been provided some foodstuffs, and we had to provide, we had to bring with us all the food we were going to take for the whole project, which was about three months. And because of some shipping problem, we got some of the food early, and some of the food came much later. And we didn’t realize that we’d gone through 50% of our breakfast foods in about a week. And so we were in this position where we didn’t have enough food. And I remember calling the office and being like, we’re gonna have breakfast. And the office was really nice. And they expect these sorts of things to happen. And the two breakfast foods that we had been given. One was WeetBix, which is a kind of cereal, and the other one, which was a very, very Vanuatu product was breast breakfast crickets, but they are imported goods that are quite expensive. They’re processed foods. And I was looking at the budget, and it was so expensive. Now in this community, they have what’s called the NACA miles. So I guess the way you could think of it as like a community hall, when I say community hall, it’s a very large area with palm leafs and totally open air and a pit by. And their practice was that every month, a different woman from the village could use that make bread and sell bread to the rest of the community so they can get some cash. And then the next month, it would be somebody else’s turn. So they were making bread. With no, let’s say, higher technology, it was the purest, simplest forms of bread you could get is basically flour, water, salt, yeast that was in and they were doing on our buyer. And it was much cheaper to buy a 50 kilogram bag of flour than it was to buy one box of cereal. So we decided that we were going to learn to make bread. And every day, somebody’s responsibility was to make bread for the next day so that people would have enough to eat. So yeah, so then it became this thing, it’s a whole, we just have to learn how to make bread and the way we did it, and we would make it and then take it down to the ladies and they would bake it for us, I never thought that that would become something that I would become so keen on. So even later on in life after I left Vanuatu, I really got into sourdough or a big salad and person for a while then I would experiment or make all these different things put seeds in a different kinds of flowers and stuff like that. But again, it was one of those things that I never really thought I would do. If you told me as a kid, you would bake and I would make bread that people would want to eat. I think I would have been confused. But sometimes being put in those positions where you kind of have your back up against the wall makes you realize how much possibility and and ability you have. So yeah,
Michael Hingson ** 24:14
you strike me as a person who likes to explore likes to always learn. And, and if I’m assessing, right and what what makes you a lifetime. I’m a lifelong learner, who are what influenced you to really adopt that kind of a mindset.
Cassandra Mok ** 24:30
It’s one of those things that you don’t necessarily think of yourself with that label. I think that’s a label that people have given me throughout time and I’ve learned Oh, that’s interesting. I had people around me, particularly my parents, and I think parents are so influential in this thing, that they were always learning something whether that was formally or informally. My dad is such a dabbler he used to have books seem to go through phases. He like test things out. And he was always very into new hobbies and trying something in learning something. My mother reads a lot. She’s a systematic learner. So she’s a different kind of learner. But again, she has never, ever had a point like I never ever saw a point where they weren’t looking at new information, trying new things experimenting. I think one time someone had said to me, you know, of course, it was for women’s leadership. And the is the facilitator and said, Oh, you know, when you’re over the age of 30, you still can go to university if you want. And my brain was like, do you mean you can’t go to university, my father did his masters when he was 50. So I think that that you know, who you’re around, definitely influences you a lot on kind of the things that you just do. I think I spend a lot of time with people who like ideas and like talking about ideas and like researching ideas, and they’re full of random facts. So that always keeps you engaged. And they’re like, Oh, I didn’t know that. And I don’t think it was something I was like, Oh, I’m gonna be a lifelong learner. I think I just really enjoyed it. I just really enjoyed it. I get the right endorphins when I learned something new. So that helps. Yeah, just I think I just poke around stuff you’re
Michael Hingson ** 26:22
brought up to explore. And that’s great that your parents did that. Um, I wish there were more people who had that opportunity, or who chose to or choose to take that opportunity. I think life is an adventure all the time. And we we do best when we’re constantly learning something new, sometimes reassessing, but when we’re learning and growing, and we need to do that.
Cassandra Mok ** 26:49
Absolutely. And I think that that’s a big thing of I mean, you know, if you didn’t have the most adventurous parents fine, but it is who you are around. And I think you talk about this as well, your parents been quite open with you, and being quite encouraging of you to go and do things that maybe other people would have said, Oh, you know, you shouldn’t do that. So yeah, I know that my parents definitely then being adventurous themselves, the fact that they moved to a different country, and were migrants. That is a big undertaking, especially before, you know, all of the stuff we have now, I don’t think people realize that, you know, well, younger people, I think, cool reflects that young people don’t necessarily realize that you didn’t hear from people for months. You know, you didn’t you got one Christmas card a year, that type of thing. And you were very much on your own country.
Michael Hingson ** 27:45
Well, you’ve done a lot in a variety of cultures. How does all of that intercultural exposure and innovation, if you will, or effectiveness, address the issue of innovation that makes you a more innovative person? It sounds like, tell me more about that.
Cassandra Mok ** 28:04
Yeah. So the first thing I’d probably say is that innovation is often mistaken for high tech stuff. Yeah. And it’s not necessarily you know, your phone, why innovation is it’s really about doing something new, or improving something that exists, right. And it’s not products necessarily. It could be how you do something, the way something’s done, could be a service, it could be an idea.
Michael Hingson ** 28:33
It’s also thinking, it’s also thinking innovation, is also something that really begins with thinking.
Cassandra Mok ** 28:39
Absolutely, absolutely. It’s thinking but it’s also perspective taking. So it’s another layer on just thinking because if you think that your your bubble is only so big, your thoughts can only go so far, your exposure to different ideas can only go so far. Whereas when you look at how different groups and when I say different groups, I don’t always mean that intercultural. intercultural relations aren’t always somebody with a different ethnicity who speaks a different language who lives across the border, you can have subcultures, you can have cultures within a nation state. But different people or groups of people have different values, they have different norms. And when you are exposed to that you understand how that works, why they do the things they do, which are going to be different from what you do or what you were brought up with or what you’re used to in your environment. You say, Oh, there’s a different way of doing that. And when there’s a different way of doing that, you can either adopt a new way of doing it, introduce it in or you can combine them together with something that you’re already doing. So, from business perspective, they talk about this a lot. They talk about biomimicry, right they borrow from somewhere else. So biomimicry is for example, thinking about the movement in robots instead of thinking that They should move like humans and they could move like octopus. So it’s the change of how you structure the base information and how how the world works. So for an octopus, the way they work is very different from how humans work. But let’s not get too far into it, because we’ll end up talking about a subject that I’m not up that much about marine
Michael Hingson ** 30:21
biology. Well, that’s okay. But, you know, let’s, let’s look at it another way. You, you have a lot of perspective, perspectives, and you have experienced in a number of cultures, and it helps you put behavior and ideas more in perspective, having a whole multicultural, kind of attitude. So clearly, you have ideas of the way things ought to be. And you know, we talked earlier about how, today in our world, we have people who want instant gratification, and there are challenges to that, and so on, how do we shift effectively and appropriately? people’s behavior sort of in an in mass sort of way?
Cassandra Mok ** 31:08
Hmm, that’s a really interesting question. Because underlying lean groups, societies, organizations, they are made up of individuals, but the dynamics and the interactions change how that happens. So when you have individuals who are looking to change, so for example, people who are looking to get fit or to get a degree, or to exercise more, or whatever it is, you know, they they very much only have to worry about themselves and their own their own reasons for doing it that they’re willing to do it. And then you know, when you add in pathways and support, so while there’s some of those similar things, when you’re doing an on mass, it stops being the individual’s personal choice, and it becomes having a common vision. And we see this in the concept of politics. And I say politics with a small p is about getting enough people to have the same type of vision that they’re willing to commit and believe in, that they are a part of whether or not they contributed to it, or, you know, somebody came up with something that they they’re happy with. And then even once you’ve had that idea about what are we working on, or what are we trying to change, then the interactions and talking with each other, have a significant impact on how it’s taken up. So somebody who was with you, or with a particular kind of change, two weeks ago, you know, they’re now gone and spoken to somebody else and met a new group of people. And they’ve retracted that commitment or that interest. Whereas normally in individuals, that’s only their own motivations. So then you also have to look into things like social proof reciprocity hierarchy. So how do all of those interactions go together? It’s kind of one way to say it is, if somebody who is popular, starts saying something is important. And this is what they think about the people will tend to pit people, people who like them will tend to, to be like, Oh, this is what they said, and they have said it, so I’m safe under that. And so being able to both find the drivers, and, and the benefits, which might not be for an individual directly, you know, in a mass change, somebody might be losing something. And this is where it gets a bit challenging. So for example, if we said something like, we want to provide better educational opportunities, for at risk youth, I’m just making something that’s generally coming out of taxpayers money, therefore, somebody has to be paying that tax, which means they may see that as a loss, to say, well, now I have to give up more money, I can’t buy whatever it is that I wanted to buy, that I was going to do. So often, when you’re talking about individuals making change, they tend to be doing things that they’re trying to get something to improve their life, or they’re trying to avoid something that’s bad in their life. Whereas sometimes when you’re looking at organizational societal change, you are talking about also trying to have to convince and get on board people who have to have less, and that’s can be quite challenging. There’s also you know, people often think, Oh, why can’t Why can’t someone so just do this? Or why can’t my team just do this? Or why can’t society just do this? And I think that there is often an overlooking of the environmental factors, the physical environmental factors, like how is as is your physical space created for you to do something or not do something? So I used to work from road safety. If you don’t want people to cross a road in a particular place, you have to put a physical barrier there. But there’s also the social, social environment. So what are the policies? What are the signs systems, what are the procedures? What’s the support in place to encourage people or discourage people from certain behaviors?
Michael Hingson ** 35:06
Right? Well, you know, the, the other aspect of all of this is that if you are dealing with all this, it really makes it tough to plan or do anything, because there’s so many different agendas, there’s so much uncertainty, how do we get beyond that, and find ways to have enough commonality to make plans and to accomplish any kind of task?
Cassandra Mok ** 35:31
That’s, I think, is, you know, very much linked with the title of your podcast, right? How do you be unstoppable. And a lot of historically, how we planned as individuals or societies as organizations, has been very much a fixed, sort of, we’re going to do this, then we’re going to do this, and we’re going to do this, and we’re going to do this, right, we can have a three year plan, and or, you know, this is the task list. And I think now we have to encourage teams, groups, whatever you want to call them, to, to look more at the vision and the impact that they want to have, and tell them less about how to do it. Right. So spending more time on the purpose of why we were doing what we’re doing, rather than, you know, micromanaging or being very task based. And when people know, as a collective, what they’re trying to achieve together and the dependencies between them, then they’re able to sense within their roles within their communities within stakeholders, and make adjustments and make suggestions and say, Hey, actually, we’re trying to do a than we really need to think about this other thing that’s going on, and are always this constant reflection of learning and checking in and sort of being like, Hmm, how can we do this better? Does this still work? Is this right? For this context, this group this, whatever it is that I’m functioning in? So really, there’s a quite a lot of decentralization of where innovation or change or decision making comes from. And we have to do it in much shorter cycles. We can’t wait a whole year and say, did this, you know, was that was that okay? Did we do the right things all? You know, you did a whole year plan, because if something changed, now they’re saying the speed of disruption, could be a few weeks, I think now with AI. So if you wait that long, you may have really, really miss the turning point of what was going on in the world. So yeah, I think that that’s an important thing that we have to encourage people to do is to be okay, I think there’s an emotional component with also being okay with the thing, the fact that things aren’t going to plan, I think people sometimes get really stuck and fixated on this is how it should be. Or this is how it should work. And and that ability to sort of recognize and say, Oh, well, this is how it actually is. And how can we adapt to that? How can we leverage and springboard off that? Yeah, we spend?
Michael Hingson ** 38:21
Yeah, we spend way too much time on Well, it’s got to be done this way, rather than looking at what is the this we really want? And how do we get there and getting people to to do more visioning. And really analyze that. And work as a team is such a challenge. There’s there’s so much mistrust or distrust in the world that it makes it all that much harder to do, it seems.
Cassandra Mok ** 38:52
Yeah, I think that it’s there in order to take risks, I guess, and a lot of changes about what is your risk or mistake tolerance, because when you’re changing, you might not get it right the first time, you might not get a right a lot of times. And so you have to have enough buffer, right. And part of that buffer might be very practical things like financial buffers, physical buffers, things like that. But there’s also psychological safety and the different people have different levels of, of how much risk they can take. But yeah, you know, people are very apprehensive about things that they’re not sure about, because sometimes it’s what is it the Better the devil you know, like even if I’m not happy with this, or I don’t like it, it’s not functioning for me at least there’s a familiarity and being familiar with something not having that is a loss and as humans we have a tendency to be more motivated by loss than we are gaining. So yeah, sorry, gone. Well
Michael Hingson ** 39:59
in our, in our world as things progressed and so on, are we relying too much on technology to solve problems rather than being innovative rather than being more creative rather than encouraging? More visioning and thinking?
Cassandra Mok ** 40:15
Okay, I think that sometimes there is this idea that technology is going to save us from all sorts of things. Technology is a tool. And it depends on how you’re using it. But it also tech, what we develop as tools reflects who we are, as humans and society. So if we are focusing on tools that and technology that helps us collaborate, that helps us be more diverse in our opinions include the perspectives of more people, then technology can be an aid to that. But I think that sometimes when people think that technology is going to help us, they’re sometimes not people who work in anything to do with technology. So basically, they’re saying, Well, I’m just waiting for somebody else to solve the problem. Right. And I think that’s a dangerous part. It’s that absorption of accountability or absorption of power or influence and saying, Well, I can do my bit, you know, what is my ability to move this along? You know, and not everyone is a coder, or, you know, building, you know, what I like to call high tech stuff. But even the way of doing something that is different, isn’t innovation, right? Some of the stuff I really love is what’s low tech innovation, right? Putting a planter over the part of your garden, that people keep walking on, and ruining the glass is an innovation for you, right? Like it’s it creates a different way of solving that problem that you weren’t doing before. So I think that there’s very much there’s very much one the perception of what technology is and what innovation is, but also the fact that by including more ideas, being open to more ideas by listening more to people, some people listen, just to prove themselves, right, as opposed to deeply understanding Mmm hmm. Because there’s also a false assumption that all logic and all rational is objective. It’s not it comes very much based in how you grew up the values you have, you know, the way the world works for you. Right. And people often like to hide behind science and, and rationality when it’s somewhat of a non common platform that, if I can say it like that,
Michael Hingson ** 42:56
well, you talk about people and being innovative, and so on. And clearly you, I think, support the concept of team efforts on things. So you mentioned, you mentioned things like decentralized leadership, what is that? And how does that encourage innovation? I think I know the answer, but I’d love to hear you describe it.
Cassandra Mok ** 43:21
Yeah. Okay, so so we have some really interesting models of leadership. And, you know, let’s not turn this into an academic class. But the concept of leadership has changed over time where, you know, leadership was originally thought of management, we still see traces of this, that people say, their senior leadership team, and those people aren’t exhibiting any leadership skills as a senior management team, right. Leadership is not a designation you can give someone. It’s not about authority within a structure. Right? We’d hope that those people that at the senior levels are showing leadership, but it’s not a given thing.
Michael Hingson ** 43:58
Right? Well, it’s a delegation you can give someone but it doesn’t make them a leader. Exactly,
Cassandra Mok ** 44:02
exactly. And then we went, what we often see in the media now is this, what’s called like heroic leaders, you know, this person did this. And you know, they’re, like, the most amazing person. And I that’s not discrediting their vision, how hard they worked, the fact that they could put together a good team. But none of those people that we venerate in the media as these amazing leaders did it on their own. But it makes for a nice story, this person who their magical abilities made them, you know, the head of whatever. And I think so when we talk about decentralized, leading, it’s a very different model of leadership that sometimes people take some time to get their head around where it’s not about a person anymore. charismatic leadership is actually quite toxic. People say well, if you have leadership skills, but then you know you can use it to start a cult, like ABS salutely, right? The ability to be persuasive and charismatic, and all of that sort of stuff doesn’t say whether that’s good or bad, all it says is that you can get people on board, right. And whether you use that, for something that is healthy for those other people is not necessarily a given, right. So contemporary leadership is very much looking away from a person and looking more at collective actions towards something. So we all do it together. It’s like, if you are planning a picnic, with your friends, there isn’t somebody who’s in charge of the picnic. Officially, no one gives them a title and says you’re a picnic leader, people tend to say, well, we want to have a nice time together, I will do this, and somebody else will volunteer to do that. Why? Because we all want to get together and have a nice time. And so decentralized leadership is really about not putting things that there has to be authorities always, you know, giving permission or dictating. And it’s more around everybody participating, sensing, communicating, they interact with each other, and they are sharing information, so that people can say, Oh, we can work towards this. And we can walk work towards that, oh, we’ve seen this thing that we need to Oh, like someone messaging and being like, it’s going to rain. So that somebody else can say, Ah, I have a space that we can use, that’s undercover, right. So it’s everybody kind of pulling together in order to get the collective got. So if you lose somebody, so if someone says, oh, you know, my car broke down, or whatever, the picnic is not going to suddenly stop. Right? There will be an ability for everyone else to sort of go, Okay, we we can we can figure around that we can work that out, we can do whatever it is that needs to be done. Because together, we want to achieve something.
Michael Hingson ** 46:54
Again, it gets back to the fact that what we’re really talking about is teamwork. And people working together. And they’re, there’s so much more of that that would really benefit us all. It is, again, something that we have to deal with. And clearly you’re talking about a lot of very innovative kinds of things. People always are a lot of times think about innovation, relating to business. Lots of really innovative company. Crypto was very innovative. And just recently, we’ve seen some real major problems with that. So one wonders about the innovation. But why is it that innovation culture be about more than business?
Cassandra Mok ** 47:43
Well, I think that I think once you start looking at it, there are social needs and human needs that we have. And the things that are easy to solve are easy to solve, we are now getting to a point where our human needs are getting more complex and interactive. It’s no longer about teaching somebody how to fish. Because, you know, the water is polluted, and there’s no fish living there, you know, you it stops being a linear solution. So having an in, you brought this up earlier, you know, innovation, culture and mindset is really around thinking and playing around and trying new things and testing things and then seeing what works and then adjusting until it really works. And so I think that we need what much more creative. And as you said teamwork and like collaborative views on how do we solve these problems, especially the really big global problems, because it’s not going to be one person, one person’s not going to go out there and solve climate change. One person out there isn’t going to solve often nuclear sites and one person isn’t going to go and solve child trafficking, it doesn’t work like that there are so many things going on, that people need to be able to work across different areas, across different cultures across different ideas and value systems in order to come up with doing the section towards that collective goal. Right? Yeah, rather than it just being like, Oh, we’re going to Band Aid solution is and only treat the symptoms as really looking at root causes, and which part of that root cause and you don’t have to be doing all of it, but how you connected how we connected to other people to solve some of these social, social and human needs.
Michael Hingson ** 49:41
Yeah, I appreciate exactly what you’re saying. And again, it is all about exploration and wanting to learn all the time. So what do you do when you’re not? Well, let me let me ask a different question. First, you graduate from college, and what do you do now?
Cassandra Mok ** 50:03
So these days, I work with people in organizations as a consultant. So it’s this, it’s, I like to call it a company meant, but other people would call it executive coaching or mentoring, or some sort of consultancy. And so basically, I work with people and organizations that want to create some kind of change now that some, some of those changes are internal. So around their teamwork, their alignment, the systems and processes, because you can have people in a in a group or an organization who wants to do something, but the policies and the frameworks of what they’re given to work in are counterintuitive to how they want to work, or what would even be an effective way of working. So there’s internal change, but there’s also external change. So when people are trying to do some sort of social change program or behavioral change program, we’re also doing a lot of strategy around that, I like to call myself the intelligent idiot. So I ask stupid questions, to make sure that a lot of the assumptions are being checked. Because often, we, especially when people tend to come from one, academic, all one sort of background, they tend to see things in one way, because that’s just the way it’s been. Everybody has sort of agreed and knows that that’s what it is. Whereas sometimes, it’s just about being like, well, is that actually true? Is that explain this to me. And as soon as sometimes people start explaining these things, they realize, oh, it’s, it’s Wait, when I have to explain it to somebody else who hasn’t grown up with this or hasn’t been taught in this line of thinking, it actually suddenly doesn’t quite make sense.
Michael Hingson ** 51:52
Which, which mainly also means that you have to take a step back and maybe started a little bit different level to explain it and teach it.
Cassandra Mok ** 52:04
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think it’s called Socratic learning is that the one that the you ask a lot of questions, and people have to think things through and explain how they came up with things, rather than just kind of doing it just because it’s been done like that before. And don’t get me wrong. There’s a reason why we have habits. There’s a reason why we have stereotypes, right? All of these things take cognitive effort, they take energy, and it’s an it’s a shortcut, and that’s shortcuts are helpful. As long as you know, people aren’t just always relying on them. And assuming that they are 100%. Correct all the time. I think that those that kind of we need to challenge, what beliefs that we hold and where did they come from? And what does that say about us? And I think it’s also, sometimes people think that empathy is just, you know, like, what is it putting yourself in somebody else’s shoes, which isn’t quite the same thing? It’s there is this understanding of understanding why somebody shoes feel the way they feel, because of how they grew up, what’s around them, what resources they have, you know, their experience of life is very different. And I think that when we talk about diversity, this is this is a key thing. You know, we often like to poke at diversity by these things that are very measurable, you know, they’re they’re, they’re kind of visible labeled differences, as opposed to even understanding that people come from all these different combinations of things, and some of them might be more similar. And some of them might be very different. But how do we get that to come out? How do we focus more on the empathy and less on dog or knowledge collection? From from having diversity? Right? Right, not everybody is going to be the same. So you know, how, how can we learn from people’s experiences? And I think that, and you talk about this a lot, you know, it’s attitude, if you believe that everybody has had experiences that may inform the same thing in a different way, regardless of what that experience is, you know, you’re gonna have different combinations, different solutions, different ways of thinking about it, different perspectives on it. Right, right. And that’s where you get opportunities for innovation, but you also get opportunities for inclusion. How long have you been a coach? Oh, I think I did my coach training in 2018. I think this was after. So just a little bit of background about me. I my first degree was actually in something called Social Inquiry. Don’t worry if you don’t know what that is. Nobody knows what that is, including my parents. But basically really looking at how societies work, how to groups work, how do you get social and behavioral change? What is social identity, things like that. So that’s how I ended up with all this sort of cultural stuff, but also changed stuff. And then I happened to. And also I was working in the nonprofit international development sector for a long time and happened to be in a few organizations that had problems, and ended up being good at organizational change. And so that the organization’s mission was still to do so for behavioral projects, and poverty alleviation, all that sort of stuff. But there was massive changes in terms of structure, policy, introductions, business models, all of that sort of stuff had to happen within the organization. And I was surprisingly good at it. I didn’t ever think and didn’t ever know. So that’s what I encourage people to remember as well, when we talk about Don’t be so fixated on how you think should things should be, because you never know what comes up. And you never know what you turn out to be good at, or interested in, or, you know, the opportunities are there. So I was doing organizational change for a few organizations. And then I was looking at saying, well, if I’m done social and behavioral, I’ve done organization, then I should be looking at individuals, because organizations and societies are made up of individuals. So how does that How did those things connect? Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 56:10
Which is an adventure in of itself, which is really pretty cool. So what do you do when you’re not? What do you do when you’re not working?
Cassandra Mok ** 56:19
Ah, I’m a big traveler, funnily enough. Yeah, I like to go to other places and experience different, like, how things work. So going back to supermarkets, for example, I like walking around supermarkets, where different places put things and how they group them together, it’s sometimes not what you expected. It’s like, where do I find this? And they’re like, we put this in these sections like, Hmm, fascinating. Yeah, I think travel is very much an easy, or a good step for people who are trying to think about diversity and innovation, and all of these sorts of things. Because when you are in a another country, now, the longer you go, and the more embedded you are, the deeper your experience will be. But you know, not everyone has that privilege to be able to do that. But when you’re in a different environment, you are the odd one out, which is much clearer to accept, when then when you are in your hometown, where you’ve lived for I don’t know how many decades, right. So when you’re in a different place, there’s distinct boundaries, and you are technically an outsider. So you have that ability to sort of observe and experience now some people go traveling, and they’re just a tourist, they just take pictures of stuff. And whatever they they’re the same regardless, as opposed to having that opportunity to observe and experience a different environment, how things work, the structures, you know, somebody was commenting, somewhere about cook turns, I don’t know if you know what that turns out. It’s like where you go, Okay, well see, I’m Australian. So I’m like, which way are we turning. But basically, you want to cross across the traffic, instead of so let’s say if you’re crossing to the left hand side, you know, like you don’t hook chain, you just stay in the left lane and hang out in the middle of the road. And then when there’s a gap, you go across, the hook turns as you go to the very far side of the road, and then you wait on the side of the road, and then you almost pitch yourself in front of the cross directional traffic, right? So even things like that simple stuff like that. It’s like, Huh, interesting. That’s how people think that’s where they do that, why might they do it that way? How does that work? What are the benefits and nothing is ever perfect? Right? So it’s like, well, what are the advantages of doing it this way? What are the disadvantages of doing it in a different way? And I think that helps reflect on yourself in a different place, right and challenge what you think is normal.
Michael Hingson ** 58:54
In this in this country, I think they call those jug handles, at least in New Jersey, they have those kinds of things where you literally, the way you turn is like the handle of a jug, you go out and come back.
They go, why is
Michael Hingson ** 59:11
it why they’re not elsewhere? Or what’s the value of it? Good question. But everyone, everyone has their different places. Yeah. Well, we’ve been doing this a while, but I have to ask you one question that came up in your bio, you said that when you were studying in Mexico, you found that a lot of young people didn’t deal with contraception. Why? Okay, so this was a
Cassandra Mok ** 59:34
long time ago. So I just want to caveat that for anyone who’s listening, it’s not like I’ve done this piece of research. This was a long time ago. Yeah, this is a long time ago. And I was in a situation where because I was living living in Mexico, I had Mexican housemates. And almost every single one of my Mexican friends had somebody in their life who had gotten pregnant unintentionally. And we’re not talking about People who, you know, they kind of finish school when they’re 13. And there’s nothing else for them to do. And the virtually they become an adult by the time they’re 14 because they’re working in the field or something we’re not talking about. We’re talking about people who finish high school when this sort of thing. And I was, I was particularly interested in sex health education back then. And so I was like, oh, okay, so how you having all these people who technically have learned to at school, still getting pregnant? And so that, for me was a curiosity. So I went and talked to some doctors, I talked to some psychologists, I talked to social social scientists around what was going on. And so there are there are certain things that came up. One was machismo, so if you if you don’t know what that is, that’s basically it’s a very male dominated decision making a thing and so, particularly at that time, you know, if you’re a woman, and you wanted to have sex, you couldn’t say that you wanted to have sex, you had to pretend you didn’t want to have sex. And then, you know, asserting yourself so even the example that was given to me was, even if you know, a woman and a man, they want to go on a date, the woman would basically sit by the phone and wait for the guy to call, you don’t call the guy. And so you’re very much looking at a disparity and being able to negotiate. So if the guy says, I don’t want to use a condom, then, you know, it’s quite hard to sort of say, well, I think you should get one. Got it. But then you’ve also got, you know, like, a Catholic country that doesn’t believe in contraception. So it’s very difficult to get contraceptives, so some places they could get contraceptives, but some times it was very embarrassing, and especially as a woman, you know, to go and say, oh, I need to get a contraceptive. It’s there’s a social pressure and an embarrassment. And you don’t know if somebody’s going to tell your parents and then you’re not supposed to be doing this. So it was almost like not not planning Britain not getting the pill not getting your own condoms, because you didn’t want people to know that you were having sex because you were supposed to not want it. Right, especially as a woman.
Michael Hingson ** 1:02:09
Of course, we’re dealing with a situation that was a long time ago. And I don’t know how it’s changed. But nevertheless, it is what you saw. And it’s fascinating that you studied it a lot. Hmm.
Cassandra Mok ** 1:02:21
Yeah, I think the the third component was around the political situation. So very much, you know, the political rhetoric. So it is interesting, when you look at certain countries around the world, the concepts of rights and birth control, and family planning is very interesting. Around the world, I know that this is a bit of a hot debate in the US at the moment. And a lot of it stems from, you know, certain values, I think, predominantly in Christianity, which, for example, in certain parts of Asia, that is not a major factor. Right. So, you know, and I mean, like, China had the one China one child brycie For so right. So clearly, their, their attitudes to are vastly different. Because of their, you know, kind of political stance and beliefs about things. Well, so yeah, it’s there’s a lot of things that that affect things that are not necessarily people’s individual, but they sort of culminate together to give you a social trend
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:23
in a culture. Well, if people want to reach out to you and explore, working with you, and using your consulting services, and so on, how do they do that?
Cassandra Mok ** 1:03:33
Oh, yeah, the easiest way is on LinkedIn. I’m not really on other social media. But if you Google Cassandra Mok, that’s the Double S and the Cassandra and
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:43
C a s s a n d r a. And then Mok is M o k . M o k. Yeah. So besides LinkedIn, okay,
Cassandra Mok ** 1:03:53
do you have a website? I don’t, people can email me, or collaborate with Cas, that’s with one. So collaborate with cas@gmail.com. You can also email me, I’m always happy to have a chat with people. Sometimes I’m just keen to hear what people are doing. So if people want to reach out and just being like, Oh, I’m working on this. I want to get your perspective on something I’m always happy to, to have a call. So yeah, great.
Michael Hingson ** 1:04:20
Well, I want to thank you for being with us. And spending a lot of time talking about a lot of these different kinds of ideas, and clearly a lot of innovation, a lot of teamwork. And it helps build trust, which is always a good thing. So I really appreciate you spending so much time with us today. And you being in Singapore, it’s getting late in the evening for you or actually early in the morning for you. So very much that’s late in the well not late in the evening, but it’s in the evening here. So I am going to let you go but I really appreciate you being here and I want to thank you for listening to us. Hope that you enjoy this and If you can reach out to Cassandra, she would love to chat with you. As she said, I’d love to hear from you want to hear your thoughts, you can always reach out to me Michael hingson. At Michaelhi at accessibe.com. That’s Michael m i c h a e l h i  at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. You can also go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. Always we really appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating. And we value your input. And I’d love to get your thoughts on this and all the things that we’re doing with unstoppable mindset. And Cassandra for you and for everyone out there. If you have any suggestions for guests that we ought to have on unstoppable mindset, love to hear from you. So please reach out. We value your ideas, and we will work to bring people on that you suggest. It’s a lot of fun to interview everyone. And I hope that you will take the time to to give us some feedback and some comments. Also, as I’ve been telling people lately, if you need a speaker to come and talk about teamwork and trust, and of course my September 11 story, always looking for speaking opportunity. So feel free to reach out and we’d love to chat with you about that. But again, one last time. Cassandra, thank you and welcome to you for last time and we really appreciate you being here on unstoppable mindset.
Cassandra Mok ** 1:06:33
Thanks for having me. I had a lot of fun.
**Michael Hingson ** 1:06:39
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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