Episode 206 – Unstoppable Professional Relationship Expert with Morag Barrett

Morag Barrett was born and grew up in England where she had what she would say is a “normal childhood”. She climbed trees, rode her bike and did all those things kids do. After high school., she went into the workforce at a bank. Although she did advance in her jobs, she grew more interested in professional development and human resources issues.

She received a Master’s degree in human resources and changed careers from banking and finance to a more human resource arena. In 2005 she, her husband moved from England to Colorado, both for job opportunities. In 2007 Morag founded SkyeTeam where, at last count, she and her team have supported the development of more than 10,000 leaders from 20 countries and on 6 continents. She focuses on professional development and relationships.

Morag is the author of three books as you will learn. As you will see elsewhere in these notes, Morag offers free books to the first 50 people who request them.

I found the many lessons and observations Morag offers during our conversation to be sensible and practical tidbits we all can use. I hope you find them to be the same.

About the Guest:

Morag Barrett is a sought-out executive coach and leadership expert who helps leaders achieve outstanding results through the power of their professional relationships. At last count Morag and her company SkyeTeam have supported the development of more than 10,000 leaders from 20 countries and on 6 continents.
She’s the award-winning author of three books: Cultivate: The Power of Winning Relationships; The Future-Proof Workplace; and her latest book You, Me, We: Why we all need a friend at work (and how to show up as one!). She’s been recognized by Thinkers360 and PeopleHum as an HR Thought Leader to Watch.
Learn more at skyeteam.com

Ways to connect with Morag:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moragbarrett/
Website: SkyeTeam.com
Ally Mindset Profile: skyeteam.cloud/youmewe

About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.com
https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/
https://twitter.com/mhingson
https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Links
https://accessibe.com/
https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe
https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
 
Michael Hingson ** 01:20
Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet and we’ll find ways to involve a lot of that stuff. today. Our guest is Morag Barrett. And she is a sought out executive coach. And she is also an expert on leadership and more important being prejudiced about such things. She is an author of three books and I know we’re going to hear about those as we go through it. But I’m gonna let her talk about that rather than me spending all of our time doing it. It’s kind of more fun to hear it some more anyway, so Morag welcome to unstoppable mindset. Glad you’re here.
 
Morag Barrett ** 02:03
Michael meet who I know we’re gonna have a fun conversation.
 
Michael Hingson ** 02:08
Well, that’s the plan anyway, that’s what we got to work on. Well, I’m really glad that you’re here. Morag is in Colorado we’re in Colorado. Where are you?
 
Morag Barrett ** 02:18
I live in a town called Broomfield so I’m down in the burbs just north of Denver and on the way to Boulder so I can see the Rocky Mountains when I leave my house, but not from the room I’m sitting in right now. But it’s a beautiful part of the country.
 
Michael Hingson ** 02:32
It is I’ve been to Littleton I’m vice president on the board of the Colorado Center for the Blind which is a little tin so know the area pretty well. Huh? Well, why don’t we start by maybe you telling us a little about sort of the earlier more ag growing up and all that stuff and where you came from and anything else that you think is relevant for us to know.
 
Morag Barrett ** 02:57
So what when I was a wee last? Well, you are the eagle IED listeners they will have gathered I have a bit of a an accent for those who are reading the transcript. It may not yet come through. But I am told that I have the hint of an accent. I was born in the UK grew just the hint just a weekend. But I was born in the UK and grew up in and around East Anglia, which is about 50 miles northeast of London. And I learnt childhood I remember climbing trees falling out into nettle patches getting into mischief. But halcyon days of just go out on your bike and don’t come back until dusk. So that was that was the early days anyway, the first season of Morag Barret or Morag McLeod as I was then
 
Michael Hingson ** 03:52
Garrett came later. The asset It did indeed. Well, so you you grew up like it sounds like kind of a normal kid. And any any challenges or relevant things to think about growing up that kind of helped shaped where you are today? Or does all that come later as well? Yeah, I
 
Morag Barrett ** 04:11
think? Well, no, I think it all blends in. I think the reality is, though, when we tell it when we’re asked about our own story, I know it is easy for me to dismiss it of that’s boring. You don’t want to hear it. Nothing. Nothing exciting happened to me. But in reality, I think more happens to us then we may recognize in the moment. And so I think the biggest impact as I look back on my life now is a woman of a certain age with my own sons who are now all six foot tall. So you can imagine where I am in my life cycle and a career that is 30 years old. Just to date myself. The biggest thing growing up that I didn’t appreciate the time was my mom and what had happened to her because in the early 70s She had a brain tumor and was told that she wasn’t going to live. And then the diagnosis changed to where you’re going to live, but you may not be able to see you may not be able to walk, you may not be able to it was a full list of may not be able to use. And she did live. She did see she did walk a little unsteadily. But the the hindsight as an adult is that we never talked about it as a family, not once. And that whole stereotype British sweep it under the carpet, nothing to see here, maintain appearances in the house and outside the house. In fact, let’s remember this, let’s allow others to assume my mother might have a drinking problem, versus her speech and balance was impacted because of a brain tumor problem. The fact that we might allow the former over the latter just blew blows my mind now as I look back at it, but it also I can see how it shaped my somewhat risk adverse, maintain the professional image, keep everything buttoned up early in my career, whether that was in banking, or when I moved into leadership and executive development.
 
Michael Hingson ** 06:18
So do you think that’s different in Britain, you then hear in terms of sweeping it under the carpet and, and not wanting to talk about it?
 
Morag Barrett ** 06:28
So it depends on what the it is. And I don’t know that it’s any different I think the reality is we all have, it’s things that we sweep under the carpet or don’t acknowledge, for fear of how others might react, maybe even for healthier of how I might react. I know it was very emotional. When I started to process this. Back 10 years or so ago, my mom passed away 23 years ago, from a brain tumor. But all of this, we have this inbuilt we’re conditioned we’re raised to Don’t rock the boat fit into societal norms. Don’t be different, don’t mention uncomfortable things, because you’ll make other people feel uncomfortable. And so that it varies whether you’re in the US or in the in the UK varies from person to person. But what I’ve learned in the last decade is those fears of what others may think or how they may judge us are invariably inflated. And in some cases, in my case, imaginary. And I wish I just dealt with them sooner. Well,
 
Michael Hingson ** 07:39
and I would say the other part about that is an inflated or not. Maybe people often do feel really uncomfortable. I know there are any number of people, even some who are blind, but yeah, a number of people who are uncomfortable and very fearful about blindness, because they’re afraid Well, I could become blind right on somebody who’s blind. They don’t do well. When whether it’s blindness or or any other thing we have learned to fear the things we don’t know a lot about. And that’s so unfortunate that we don’t learn that maybe we are looking at things a different way.
 
Morag Barrett ** 08:20
I couldn’t agree more. I mean, it’s that not seeking to understand that the curiosity that keeps us all trapped or separate. Because should I lose my sight? How do I learn to adapt? The fact that I think we know by now that blindness is not contagious, it’s not something you’re going to catch by hanging out with and socializing with people who may have. And that goes with many of the challenges that people bring. I mean, Eric shares my business partner in our book, you may worry about his struggle with depression throughout his life and mental health. And he is now way more open with us as to when he needs assistance when he’s having a tough day or an up day. And as a result, we have grown stronger as a team because we and we understand we may not experience his lived life, but we have a better perspective from which to ask, and for us all to be better together.
 
Michael Hingson ** 09:22
And I would change something that you said a little bit. I think curiosity is great if we would only but be curious. Yes, rather than treating us as curiosities, whoever we are. Curious, be open. And the other side of that is that I’ll use me as a blind person. We need to be open and be prepared to be teachers and it’s easy for a lot of people. I just don’t want to do that. I’m tired of doing that. But that’s what we are and who we are. And we can shut down which doesn’t help or or we can choose to be open and answer questions and help people better understand, which hopefully will help people move on and not fear things so much.
 
Morag Barrett ** 10:11
I think that ultimately is a two way street, you can’t do all of the education. From your perspective, it’d be exhausting, it’s unfair. It’s just unmanageable. But so I have to step in and come closer to you, in the same way as you have to then be willing to accept maybe my inelegant questions or my, at this point, I didn’t know better questions. But I will know after you’ve responded and clarified for me a different approach or a different perspective.
 
Michael Hingson ** 10:43
One of the things that I have the honor and pleasure of doing as I work with a company, our company called Accessibility in Israel, and excessively makes products that helped make the internet more accessible and more usable for a lot of different kinds of disabilities and persons with different disabilities. And I spent a week over there my first time in Israel, we were there two weeks ago. And there were a lot of questions about dealing with disabilities. And what to do well, not so much what to do and what not to do, but how do we approach different issues and so on. And ultimately, if I were to summarize, the week, it is, how great it was that people were willing to ask questions and even acknowledged that maybe they were making assumptions that weren’t true. We were able to move through a lot of that. And it was so wonderful to experience that and have the opportunity. And I knew going in that I was there in part to do that very thing. So I chose to and I agree, we can’t always be teachers, and we shouldn’t necessarily try to go force ourselves into a teaching role. But when it comes along, we do need to recognize and deal with it. Hmm. That’s kind of more of what I’m thinking. That’s the that’s the only way we’re going to address the issue.
 
Morag Barrett ** 12:10
Yeah, one conversation, one interaction at a time. Yeah. It’s
 
Michael Hingson ** 12:15
like you do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? Why don’t want me to. Okay. But I hear you it is one conversation, one interaction at a time. So you went, you grew up, you rode a bike, you climbed trees, and did all those things that people do and probably spied on the neighbors and all that sort of stuff. Did you? Did you go to college in England? Or what did you do? Actually, I
 
Morag Barrett ** 12:41
chose not too. That was a pivot point. For me, when I graduated high school, I actually chose to go straight into work. And originally I was going to be an engineer. I did applied mathematics, physics and economics at high school. So in preparation for going I was the only girl in the class, you know, that sort of thing. And then the class was five people. I mean, it was tiny, but we would hang out. And I was going to be an engineer, I like puzzles. I used to do jigsaw puzzles upside down, Michael, you know, with the image, the wrong side, just because of the spatial awareness, which I don’t know, don’t necessarily have carried forward. But in economics, there was a chapter on how banks create money. And I thought this is fascinating. And I decided to go straight into banking. And I worked in the branch in might the town I grew up, and I did my degree at night school, because I decided by the time I graduated, I would have a have the work experience and the degree, or I could go to university and have a fun time and an OK degree, but I would lose the work experience. And so that was the decision I made and it worked out. And then subsequently, I went back to school and did a master’s degree in HR and move from numbers into the leadership and executive development executive coaching that I do now.
 
Michael Hingson ** 13:59
Why did you go back to school and get a degree in HR? So you got one new stop? You got a bachelor’s degree, but you never did get a bachelor’s degree?
 
Morag Barrett ** 14:07
Well, no. Yes. I got the associate’s degree got the associates to finance? Yes, yeah. And I again, at the time, I was not really paying attention to the difference between an associate’s degree and a bachelor’s degree. And to be honest, 35 years later, nobody asks anyway, other than today, which is lovely. So why did I do that? Well, because I thought I was going to be on that career path of the numbers side of what makes for successful organizations. And certainly, I can find my way around a cash flow forecast, analyze a balance sheet profit loss, or I used to be able to until the cows come home, but in the work that I was doing with businesses, the ones who’d come and say, Well, we’re all going to be rich. We have this product or service lend me a million pounds. The ones that were successful and could pay us back were the ones I realized that didn’t just have that great idea. They also invested as much cart time and attention in how business gets done, the people side, whether that’s the people working in the company, the vendor relationships, or the customer relationships. But in the 90s, that was still the soft, fluffy stuff, it was still only just starting to emerge really as, as important as the numbers. And I went back to do my master’s degree, knowing I was going to make that pivot into the people side, all while being a bank manager. So I had the pragmatic experience of running a business, whilst also now getting the book smarts around what does it take to to be a successful leader in what is now the 21st century?
 
Michael Hingson ** 15:45
So you decided volitionally, if you will, what you wanted to migrate some of the number side to the people side? Yes. What fascinates you about the people side, what made you really want to do that?
 
Morag Barrett ** 16:01
That despite however many billions of us there are on this planet, and how different people may assume we are from the get go, we’re actually very much the same. And certainly in the NOW 20 plus years that I’ve been doing leadership and executive development with leaders around the world, it doesn’t matter where on the planet you are, whether you’re north slope, Alaska, working on an oil and gas drilling site, maybe down in Peru, working with a gold mining company, or working across Europe, with health care, clients, etc. It’s the people issues, our the ability to push each other’s buttons, the misunderstandings and miscommunications that get in the way of success, whether that’s for me as a person or team or our company, every single day. And that’s what I love is that the variety but the consistency of the problems that I’m helping others to solve,
 
Michael Hingson ** 17:00
no. And I would think certainly, it’s a field and a world that by any standard is not as fixed as dealing with numbers, because with numbers you calculate, you can interpret. But then, when you start to go look at different economic trends, you get back to the whole people issue again, which is really what’s the adventure?
 
Morag Barrett ** 17:28
Yeah, there’s poetry in numbers, because there is, in theory, a right answer, or there is a style of algebra, you know, when you’re doing resolving all of the equations, I love chemistry for the same reason and, and all of that. So I do love that. However, when it comes to the people piece, there is no one right answer. And everybody has to find a way that suits their, we use the word authentic too much, but their authentic self, their style, and bring it to bear in the context in which they’re leading. So again, if I think about the leadership in North Slope, Alaska, where it literally is life or death, if I fall, it is a flight out to get to the nearest hospital. And of course, if the weather’s closed in, it could be days, it could be weeks before that flight can happen. So there, it is very strict, you know, three points of contact to feet on the ground one hand on the handrail, amongst other rules that are designed to keep not just me safe, but the people who would have to take care of me if I have an accident. So it’s much more directive much more strict. And this is how you will show up. But leadership and management pay in Littleton, maybe, for accessory or any other organization that you might be part of, it may be a little bit more hands off a bit more relaxed, or hey, you’ll work it out. And it’s just finding that right balance and knowing when to turn the dial up or turn the dial down, that differentiates the leaders we want to work for. And the ones where we just grown every time we see their name or email come in. The
 
Michael Hingson ** 19:10
other part about that I would say though, is take North Slope Alaska, most people would say, well, a person who’s blind can’t really work there. And that’s the other part though, about people. We tend to lock ourselves into mindsets to ways of thinking without recognizing maybe there are other alternatives that may totally change or affect what we always start with so Oh, absolutely.
 
Morag Barrett ** 19:40
I mean, there’s two sides to that. Michael, there’s the I might typecast you as the finance person who happens to be blind, maybe we’ll have seeing issues whatever. But it’s only because I know you now and I don’t know your backstory and your past career, etc. So being typecast by others, and therefore limited is frustrating. It’s wrong. We need to break that model. But I think we also do it to ourselves. And I know only recently as I’ve started to regain my fitness, I went back on the treadmill telling myself, I’m only a power Walker. And now it turns out, I’m a jogger. And as of yesterday, I couldn’t run on the treadmill. And I texted a girlfriend, I said, I ran at 7.3 miles an hour. And she came back going, Oh, my goodness, that’s amazing. And I said, Well, yes, except it’s context, I ran at 7.3 miles an hour, 30 seconds. So there is these limiting beliefs that are AI couldn’t run. Now I am believing I can only run for 30 seconds at a time. So we’ll see how I work on that. But then there are the beliefs that hold us back that others know you’re no good with numbers. You can’t be an engineer or you can’t because you’re a woman or you can’t because you don’t have full sight. And sometimes that’s true, but more often it is. It’s not true. There’s a workaround, there’s an adaption that we can do. That gives everybody an opportunity to thrive and flourish.
 
Michael Hingson ** 21:16
Worse. The other part of that is that sometimes it may be true because of the technology or the tools that we have developed today. I mean, for so far, yes. So far. So Roger Bannister, Roger Bannister broke the mold when he ran a mile in less than four minutes. And people said up until he did it, that it was a physical impossibility to run a mile in less than four minutes. And if anyone did, they would die. And then what 1966 I believe it was, he did.
 
Morag Barrett ** 21:54
And then about eight people followed, it’s like when trains were first invented, and women couldn’t possibly ride on a train because they would pass out. And if we go over 25 miles an hour, there won’t be enough oxygen. So every time we push the envelope, I mean, you look at what’s happening with AI and technology right now, it is both exhilarating and exciting, and terrifying. I was reading an article recently where electrodes had been implanted in a woman’s brain who is paralyzed, and she was able to communicate, I think it turned out 70 words a minute, if you read that one, she could articulate words by thinking them at 70 words a minute, versus the eye flickering approach that she’d had to use, which was much, much slower. So the quality of life for I assume for her because the article didn’t go into that must be better, because she can interact with those around her in a different way. And who knows how that will evolve. In the next few months, years, decades.
 
Michael Hingson ** 23:00
By recall, it’s the first time that her husband heard her voice and it was her voice, which is the other part about it. And 18 years, I actually saw a news report, so I did hear her speak. And, and, and hear her complete sentences. And and of course, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, maybe even five years ago, we wouldn’t have been able to see that happen. So there’s no Rathod technology brings a lot to bear to make improvements. I mean, I love to talk about Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb in 1878. Right? So what was the electric light bulb is its is I use it in terms of the Americans with Disabilities Act, it’s a reasonable accommodation for light dependent people who need to be able to see in the dark. But now, some 145 years later, what we have is technology that makes light on demand available, basically whenever we want. Now, it doesn’t mean although people would deny it, it doesn’t mean that the disability of light dependents isn’t still there. Because we can still have situations where there’s a power failure and suddenly you you lose light until you go find a smartphone or a flashlight or a candle
 
Morag Barrett ** 24:21
to bring with the oil lamp or the oil
 
Michael Hingson ** 24:25
lamp. Right. But but the reality is that it still is something that’s there. So I love to point out that everyone has some sort of disability and we need to recognize that and stop limiting some just because what they need is different than what we need. Yes, but we make assumptions and it’s unfortunate that we do so often. It is something that we we need to deal with and grow beyond and you know, how do we do that? I it’s it’s so difficult and frustrating because so many people don’t seem to want to change from whatever their particular belief system is. They’ve never learned to really think about maybe we need to grow and look at things in a different way. How do we change that? Well, it
 
Morag Barrett ** 25:13
goes back to what we said earlier on one conversation and one interaction at a time. And I think it’s easy to find the naysayers. And the blockers. I mean, just this week, a friend of mine shared, there was an event here in Colorado, and our whole group of people turned up with the opposing view t shirt and stood up and disrupted the whole event. And it’s just, we’re gonna find those people. They’re easy to find they’re right, you just step out your front door. However, there are also the hidden gems and the people who are ready and willing to listen and do different and let’s start there. Yeah. But also, I wish for many of these conversations that we could move more quickly from conversation to action. And start getting that momentum
 
Michael Hingson ** 26:01
is one of my favorite things to talk about in speeches that I give. And you may know, I’m a keynote speaker, in addition to doing this, and I love to travel and speak, and a lot of people want to hear my September 11 story. But I also do a talk called moving from diversity to inclusion. And I titled it that, because when we talk about diversity and ask people to define it, what invariably they talk about is, well, diversity means something to do with race or sexual orientation or gender. They never talked about disabilities. And so some of us take the position. Well, all right. So diversity is left out disabilities. But if you’re going to talk about being inclusive, and you say, but we include people with different races, but you don’t include disability, so you’re not inclusive, you know, you can’t have it both ways. But one of the things that I love to do when I’m giving those talks is to start out, but I’m gonna ask you tell me what you think a blind person can’t do. And that’s not a trick question. It’s not a trick.
 
Morag Barrett ** 27:07
It’s not a trick question. Because I thought, Well, okay, maybe not a brain surgeon. But then again, with robotics, you know, you’re actually listened to it being there actually, is what he’s blind.
 
Michael Hingson ** 27:21
He’s out, there you go. It’s out. But that wouldn’t be the number one answer that you get.
 
Morag Barrett ** 27:26
Oh, tell me a joke that you can’t do. Oh, they’re not do like, Family Fortunes or whatever. We have to pick the of our survey 100 People said, I don’t know. Tell me Michael then. So what are they go to because I’m still have the well, you drive a car. And most things if you can do that now, because most cars can drive themselves
 
Michael Hingson ** 27:47
well, but that’s different than driving a car. autonomous vehicle. So that’s true for everyone. But the reality is that there is a video of a blind person driving a car, with technology that was put on the car to transmit to him the information of whatever is in front of him and around him or her. So that literally a blind person can learn to drive a car, literally, like you do. And there’s a video it’s up, you can go to a website, it’s www dot Blind Driver Challenge dot Ford. And you can actually see a gentleman driving a car around the Daytona Speedway, right before the 2011 Rolex 24 race in January of 2011. And again, the the technology was was there. So it’s not ready for primetime. But the point is that people make assumptions. And I love to ask that question, because invariably, the first answer, and if not the first, it’s got to be one of the first few but typically, the first answer is can’t drive a car. And then you go to all sorts of other things from there. And the fact of the matter is that nowadays, technology has advanced to the point where there is a way to do some of those things that we didn’t think we could do before and you talked about it with the woman who had the brain implant that allows her to speak, which is pretty cool. Yes, it is, indeed. So you know, we we really need to find ways to deal with getting over our limiting thoughts. And we do limit ourselves all too often. And I think we’re taught to do that. And it’s to unfortunate that that’s the case.
 
Morag Barrett ** 29:36
I have a section in my first book cultivate where I talk about the trash talk roller coaster, which I think is symptomatic of this self limiting belief. And I know I still ride what I call the trash talk roller coaster regularly, and it starts like this. This is awesome. And then something will happen to the project or the job or the relationship or the something that kind of moves it off the rails a bit which point we go to, oh, this is harder than I thought. And then we get to the, if it keeps on that route of this sucks, and then very quickly it goes from this sucks to, I suck, I must suck, because why can I do this? Why can I get this person to whatever? Why can’t I get this project back on track? And then maybe the hopeful is that you come around the other side to well, it’s not as bad as I thought it was. And you’re fat. This is okay to back to this is awesome. And for me, it’s the catching myself in the oh, this is harder of God, this sucks and trying to break my precondition patterns before it gets to the I suck, to differentiate the two to differentiate from the system that might be sucky. Or the yes, I’m bits because I’m new. I’m the beginner, I haven’t learned how to do it yet, as opposed to I will never learn to do it. It
 
Michael Hingson ** 30:56
may very well be that your gift set is such that it whatever it might be isn’t something that you specifically might do well. But you might be the person who can find someone who can help you do it well, which gets back to creativity.
 
Morag Barrett ** 31:17
Yes, definitely better together again, why keep going after if it’s not something you enjoy doing? It’s not something you aspire to, you’ve put in a few of the 10,000 hours and you know, you’re not going to really be a what ready and willing to invest the time to get further then delegate subcontracted out find somebody else. I love that suggestion.
 
Michael Hingson ** 31:38
So you went off and you got your master’s degree? And what was the degree in human resource management, human resource management? So it’s your Yeah, you do that in England?
 
Morag Barrett ** 31:49
Yes, I did. And that was also coincide with the birth of my twins and moving into leadership development properly within the bank. And within a couple of years of that actually leaving the bank the safety of what would have been a career for life, if I had continued on the path of head down, work hard, and it will be okay. And taking a risk and joining an American company that ultimately ended up bringing us to Colorado. And there I went from a very UK England centric career in life and life experience, to now working with leaders around the world and living in a foreign country with a very similar but different language. And it was the first of the baby steps that really accelerated my transformation.
 
Michael Hingson ** 32:44
Well, talking about human resource management, too, with with twins, there’s good human resource management there too.
 
Morag Barrett ** 32:54
A lot of refereeing. And so there’s three of them now, because we had an another one as well. All boys. So the usual wrestling and hiking that goes on.
 
Michael Hingson ** 33:04
Yeah. And how old are all of them today?
 
Morag Barrett ** 33:08
Oh, 25 and 21. So dependent young men now who are off making their own pads and their own decisions. And
 
Michael Hingson ** 33:17
Mom has to be smarter about human resource management to get them to do things that she might want them to do because they’ve learned to think for themselves I bet
 
Morag Barrett ** 33:27
Oh, it’s smarter in that I have to do it myself. Now Michael or out, outsource it. So now as an empty nester, I’m on my own. It’s down to me if I want it to happen, I’d better get the YouTube video out and work it out. You
 
Michael Hingson ** 33:41
can’t outsource it to them. Or news not as easy.
 
Morag Barrett ** 33:45
Not as easily. And to be honest, they can learn their own journey. Yeah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 33:52
but I bet they they still love mom. I bet.
 
Morag Barrett ** 33:58
I hope so. You’d have to ask them. I’m gonna go with Yes. Okay, ultimately, yes.
 
Michael Hingson ** 34:04
We’ll buy that. Yeah. Yeah. So you moved. So why did you leave the bank and join a different company?
 
Morag Barrett ** 34:14
Because I saw an opportunity to, to learn and it goes back it’s curiosity, to see what might happen if and I knew I wanted to be in leadership development. And if I stayed in the bank, it was always waiting for the next opportunity and time will get you there. But when you choose to take control of your own career and make those deliberate choices to move, you can accelerate that transition and so the opportunity to learn and work globally. Even that decision to move to the states was a big one. My mum had just passed away. We’ve moved house to be closer to family because family is important. And now we were being asked to move 5000 miles away to a different and country. And we thought about it long and hard. We talked with the family and we decided it was an adventure that was too good to miss. And even if it only lasted a couple of years, we should do that. In the end, it’s now lasted. Where are we at? 2023 years to 2005 we came. So, you know, it’s lasted a lifetime and actually, is now our home of choice. Yeah. Well, it’s time flower and you’re having fun. Hard
 
Michael Hingson ** 35:26
to Be Colorado. Now, is there anger? Yes, it is. Is there a husband in the picture?
 
35:34
Yes, there is. Yeah. So
 
Michael Hingson ** 35:36
he moved as well without too much muss or fuss, or?
 
Morag Barrett ** 35:40
Yeah, it was all as a combined unit. And then, as ever, life changes and moves on. So Colorado is definitely home with the boys being here. And I’m going back to visit my brother back in the UK in November. So I’m looking forward to that trip and seeing some of the old buildings and history. But also remembering why I like the blue sky and mountains of Colorado.
 
Michael Hingson ** 36:04
Yeah, needless to say, Well, you’ve so So do you still work for that company? Are you now totally on your own? Or what?
 
Morag Barrett ** 36:12
No, I’m totally on my own. So sky team is my company. I formed that in 2007. So for 16 years, we’ve been working in three ways with our clients, either one on one as executive coaches, with a intact teams on how do we ensure that this group of people is aligned around what does it take to be successful in their roles on the team through to broader leadership and executive development programs and had the opportunity now to work with leaders from 20 countries on six continents? All looking to? How do we solve the business challenges together, especially now in a 21st century in an in a hybrid environment where some people may be on site, some are working from home, and that additional complexity that may be factored in?
 
Michael Hingson ** 37:06
What do you think about the whole idea today of a hybrid environment, it’s clearly the pandemic was one of the main causes for us to shift our thinking from just being in the office all day every day.
 
Morag Barrett ** 37:20
So I wish it hadn’t been a global pandemic, with so many desks that was the catalyst for change. But my second book, The Future Proof workplace, really preempted the fact that many of our working processes and attitudes to career and work and office were rooted back in the 18th century in the industrial revolution, they had not morphed to keep up with the reality of what was now a knowledge work base in many cases versus a manufacturing work base. And the fact that as the pandemic showed, and work from home, work can be done from almost anywhere with the right tools and equipment. The challenge we saw Michael, though, was that people grab their bags and emergency evacuated the offices, assuming it was going to be two weeks, maybe a month, maybe three months, not expecting two years. And so the old leadership and management habits from in person, were force fitted, to working through the camera, and even now have not flexed to meet the needs of a hybrid workforce. And I think that’s the biggest opportunity for us as individuals. And as teams and organizations continue to adapt and look forward.
 
Michael Hingson ** 38:43
Well, and we, we all need to grow. And, of course, my experience goes back to September 11, when something happened that we didn’t expect, that affected a lot of the world. But I think the pandemic even more was an event that affects the world. And it forced more people to be directly involved in needing to change because what happened on September 11, affected a lot of us in a lot of different ways going through airport security is different and so on. But the pandemic really made major changes for all of us, including this whole hybrid idea. And I hear from so many people that in reality, it’s probably a good thing overall because we we learned that that there is value in letting people work from home. And a lot of the times when people are opposed to it, it tends to be a trust issue rather than really an issue that is a true Yes.
 
Morag Barrett ** 39:48
Now, it is a trust issue. And I also agree that there is value in coming together in three dimensions. But it has to have a purpose and needs to be seen. Trucks should it needs to be thoughtful and deliberate. And why again, as I remember commuting into London, why would I want to spend an hour and a half going into the office to then spend the day there spend an hour and a half going home is 6am to 7pm. Schedule again, when I don’t get to see the family unconditionally tired. Surely it’s better to have those options to use technology. Like you and I are talking right now. We’re having a powerful conversation, but we don’t need to be in the same room. And yet, I know that if you and I were in the same room, depending on the nature of the discussion, and the decisions that had to be made, or the problem we’re solving, it would be an even richer experience. So I think that’s part of what we need to do individually and collectively is start making deliberate choices about how and when work happens. How and when team at work happens, how and when collaboration happens. Yeah.
 
Michael Hingson ** 40:57
And we need to recognize that there are a number of ways to make that happen. You know, for me, I’m used to talking with people, how do I say this, and not seeing them even being in the same room. So for me, one of the things I learned early when I started selling major accounting products, and doing it by phone, was that I use the same techniques to sell on the telephone that I would use if I were selling to a person sitting across the desk from them. Because Because the reality is that I communicate in the same way, which also means that I have to describe in the same way, now the value is changed, because we have things like zoom. So I can bring up a picture. Or I can show people things that I might not have been able to do in the past. So I can create a pretty rich experience. I think that all too often, when we talk about virtual as opposed to in person experiences, we do tend to limit ourselves a little bit with virtual experiences, we can make them richer than we think we can.
 
Morag Barrett ** 42:18
Hmm, yeah. So it’s funny before the pandemic, my team and I were all leadership development, but it was if you want to be a better human, you need to do it in a room with other humans. And we rarely use Zoom or any sort of virtual facilitation, like everybody else, we had to learn quick, and I will I’ve eaten my words, because done well, this virtual environment can deliver many things. And I think about some of the friends that I’ve made during the pandemic never met them in three dimensions only met them through the camera. And yet, I would describe them as some of my trusted colleagues and life friends. In spite of that, or because of that, maybe, but again, it’s being forced, and it’s being thoughtful and deliberate versus just coming on the call hanging up at the end, getting on the next call, hanging up the end, we miss the subtleties and the cues of when we’re in person. For example, your spidey sense might go off and say something about more eggs, voice sounds different words. And you may then follow me into the break room say hey, Maura, you okay, what’s going on? And I might go with a British, nothing, Michael, it’s fine. And then you’re gonna know there’s something and you’d keep going by and we don’t get that, that you’re not buying it. But we don’t get those as easily as the thing to see through the camera. Again, unless as leaders and managers we are being thoughtful and deliberate in creating space for Scott to schedule spontaneity, creating space for small talk, creating space for just how are you doing, Michael? Versus the Okay, it’s two o’clock, what are you doing, Michael, get on the Zoom call, show me a project plan.
 
Michael Hingson ** 44:06
Right. And I think that so using your example, if I detected that, from you during a zoom presentation, as soon as it was done, I would be halfway through dialing you on the phone to say what’s going on. And
 
Morag Barrett ** 44:23
that, to me is an ally behavior. That’s what being a friend at work is is I may be imagining it but are you okay? And I’m just checking in and the more we do that, the more we build trust, the more I build trust, the more I’m going to be willing to ask for an offer help or give you the tough feedback you need to hear. And ultimately then we are all better together.
 
Michael Hingson ** 44:45
Why should we care about our professional relationships? What’s what’s the value and really doing that? I think I know how you’re going to answer that but me ready.
 
Morag Barrett ** 44:56
Maybe I should ask you and then we’ll compare. So here’s Just go ahead. No, no. All right. So why should we care because all of the research shows that it has a direct impact on our happiness, our health, and our success, whether that’s measured in productivity by the corporate overlords, or in terms of success for our own career aspirations. Everything that we do, is impacted by the health and quality of the relationships that we build, whether it’s on our team, across the industry, and so on, it matters.
 
Michael Hingson ** 45:33
And to me, it goes back to trust. Because we value our relationships, and we cultivate our relationships, we create more of a trusting relationship, which I think is so crucial. That’s why I love talking about dogs, dogs don’t trust unconditionally, they love unconditionally, but they don’t trust unconditionally, but what dogs do is be open to trust, which is where we tend to. And so I very much value the relationship I have with my guide dogs. And I know that in reality, the trust is truly earned on both sides when we do. It is all about making that trusting relationship happen. And
 
Morag Barrett ** 46:21
also, it’s the how you both respond to each other when the inevitable mistakes will happen. Yep. And how do you come back from that? And I’ve seen too many leaders who will either say, Well, Michael, welcome to my team, you know, and subtext is two years prove prove that you’re worthy of my trust? Well, at the pace of change, right now, two years, you don’t have two years, you have six months at best, maybe three. So why don’t we talk through? What does success look like? What am I hot buttons? What do you need from me? What do I expect from you. And then we can accelerate that whole process.
 
Michael Hingson ** 46:58
As a sales leader, whenever I hired people. I’ve talked about it before on this podcast, one of the first discussions I have with people is I’m not here to boss you around, I hired you because I believe you can sell, but I have gifts, you have gifts. What I need to do, as your leader is to work with you to find out how I can add value to what you do to make you more successful. And the people who get that word, the people who didn’t did the last one. Yeah, but but it’s so true. I think any good leader needs to see how they can add value to the work, and the work ethic and the work experience of the people who work for them, and how they can enhance those people. And that’s what it’s really about. That’s not easy to do for a lot of people, but it’s what we really need to do.
 
Morag Barrett ** 47:54
Well, the challenge is we get promoted for doing something I mean, I think about banking, and you get promoted for processing your in Tray really well. Well, now I’ve got this unconscious bias, maybe that success is equivalent to how many widgets I made by Morag. But once you start moving through the organization, to your point, it’s not about how many widgets can I make is how many widgets can I inspire and engage the team to make is getting results through others. And if we aren’t amongst all of the other changes, and transitions, if we aren’t aware of it, then we become that micromanager that’s trying to control instead of somebody who coaches feedback delegation. And that’s where we start to stifle ourselves and others and then maybe coming back full circle, it triggers those limiting beliefs of will maybe I’m not a good boss, or a leader, because look, my team isn’t delivering. And we get into that trash talk cycle again, all for the sake of a little perspective and unlearning the habits that made us successful at this leadership level, and relearning or learning the new habits in a different way that will help us in that new environment or new context,
 
Michael Hingson ** 49:03
we will biggest mistakes or what are the common mistakes that people make in nurturing their professional relationships.
 
Morag Barrett ** 49:11
So I’m gonna go with it’s a dichotomy. One is assuming that it’s going to take a lot of time. And the reality is not necessarily. So if I ask listeners now to think about a best boss, best colleague, somebody who jumped at the chance to work with again, and what makes them special. So Michael, for you, who comes to mind, somebody you would love to work with, again, if you had the opportunity. Sure.
 
Michael Hingson ** 49:37
And there are a few. One is a guy I’ve talked about on the podcast before Kevin, who I hired and who really got the whole sales presentation, the whole sales pitch that I gave about how we add value. And yeah, I have some wonderful stories about that. But I think we all have that and, you know, I thought about My comment that I made earlier about trust, I think more of us want to have trust in your relationships than then have them. But we’ve not learned or we’ve forgotten how to develop those relationships.
 
Morag Barrett ** 50:12
Yeah, well, we talked about it in you, me, we, we talked about the fact that if you want trust, if you want more relationships, strong, powerful relationships in your network, then you have to go first and show up as that person for others and for you. So if I close the loop on this, and it not taking long, everybody’s now thinking about their equivalent of Kevin. So my challenge my double dog dare challenge to everybody is to the extent you can send your Kevin, your best boss or colleague a message after this podcast that says, Hey, I was listening to Michael. And they asked about best colleagues and I thought of you and here’s why. And in that nanosecond, whether it’s a LinkedIn message, an email, a text message to the universe, you have made a deposit into that relationship bank account, and it took you two minutes less than that. That’s how easy it is. But we think it’s going to be complicated. So it’s, it’s making it a choice, making it a habit, I have a Friday 30 minute slot that comes up on my calendar that reminds me to send text messages and messages to people who are important to me, that says, hey, thinking of you, I even had one on a Saturday to text my sons. And it’s not cheating. And it’s not, because I’m a bad mother that I need the reminder. But it is the prompt, that make sure that I follow through more often than not, that means that we are more connected. And so do that. Find your 30 minutes, spend 15 minutes at the beginning of your next staff meeting, asking how people are what they did for fun over the holiday weekend, and start bringing the human to work, not just the work?
 
Michael Hingson ** 51:54
Well, there’s nothing wrong with that prompt, we all tend to get diverted no matter how seriously or how firmly we have something in mind. So I have Trump’s I, you know, when we have on our calendars and like, I use Outlook, there’s a Birthday Calendar, there are so many different calendars. And I put notes just to make sure that I remember different things throughout the year. I think it’s a very useful thing to do.
 
Morag Barrett ** 52:24
We do it with our passwords. Now most of us have a password manager, why not have a human and a relationship manager to that can help us and for those who see every day, it’s easy for those who might be living in the next state or you only see once a quarter, then again, it’s just about repetition and making those choices, but the benefits, health, happiness and success. Are you the team and the organization.
 
Michael Hingson ** 52:53
So what are the four? Yes? Is that you identifying having building relationships? Oh, wow. So
 
Morag Barrett ** 53:01
the four yeses are four questions that we are asking ourselves consciously or subconsciously in every interaction. You and I were asking about each other, your listeners are asking, or we’re asking it about me and this conversation. And question number one is, Can I count on you? Can I count on Michael and Morag to have an engaging conversation and get it done within you know, the 30 minutes to 45 minutes? That’s as advertised? it’s table stakes is do your job. Question two is can I depend on them? Can I depend on them not just to go wow, are each other and fill the time? But can you turn depend on us to go the extra mile to make it fun and engaging to make you stop and listen and go? Hmm, that was interesting. So at work that might be can you depend on me to go the extra miles spot the typo in a document to fix the formula in the spreadsheet? But either way, these are my finance career people these two questions Can I count on you? Can I depend on you? Transactional, you do your stuff? I’ll do mine will be fine. questions three and four, however, move from transactional to transformational. Question number three is do I care about you? Do I care about you as a human being? Do I understand your backstory? Do I understand a little about your lived experience and what’s happening in your world right now? And then ultimately, question number four. We’ve touched on it when we talked about your dog when we talked about working relationships. Do I trust you? And if we don’t get to a heck yes on all four of these, if we don’t make the implicit explicit on those, then you’re never going to get to what I call an ally relationship, your friend at work the person who has your back, or the person that you can go to in the time of need,
 
Michael Hingson ** 54:49
and we don’t emphasize that nearly as much as we should. In our in our world with all the things going on in our in our world today. All the sound bites on The news and all the different political things and everything else. We we don’t get to that. Which is so unfortunate. And
 
Morag Barrett ** 55:08
it is. And then we worry why wonder why people don’t want to stay the extra hour to help you out of a pickle, that when you find yourself on the job market looking for the next opportunity, people aren’t returning your calls. So the time to invest in your relationships is now before you need other people. And the time to be abundant and generous with your own time and expertise is now when others need you. So it’s a balance. And it’s two sides of the same coin.
 
Michael Hingson ** 55:39
Yeah, exactly. So you have written three books, when did you write your first one? And what are each of them about?
 
Morag Barrett ** 55:47
So there is a theme. So the first book is cultivate the Power of Winning Relationships. And that was published in 2014. And it introduces the relationship dynamics that we experience in the workplace from allies, our best friends at work, unconditional have my back, give me the tough love, and the kick in the pants when I need it. Supporters, more like fairweather friends, you know, when it goes and gets tough and you ask for help, it’s crickets. They’ll give me the feedback, they want to hear, Oh, you’re fine, but not the feedback I need to hear. Then we have rivals a little bit more elbow jockeying one day, they might be all for me. And the next day, they’re against me and uncertainty. So like Jekyll and Hyde, and then adversaries, the continually tense relationships that just fill me with dread. And so cultivate introduced that ecosystem and was very powerful, and still is in helping to transform team and organizational cultures. But we were consistently asked, Yeah, but how do I show up as an ally? What does that mean? And that was the genesis, I was just pointing Michael to the third book on behind me as a picture of the cover, which is called you, me we, why we all need a friend at work and how to show up as one, which is how do we show up as an ally for others, but also for ourselves and not become a doormat? And that was published last year. And in between the two, I have a book called The Future Proof workplace, which I mentioned earlier in our conversation.
 
Michael Hingson ** 57:22
So do you think everyone should have allies? You should have at least one otherwise?
 
Morag Barrett ** 57:26
Oh, my goodness, what a lonely place the world of work. Yeah. So it’s, it’s not like Facebook, this is not about converting every relationship. It’s quality, not quantity. But yes, having at least one person on your team or in your organization that you can go to when you are having a good day and celebrate your wins, but also go to and say oh my goodness, I just messed up that podcast interview with Michael and they’ll listen, but then they’ll coach me through it. Or they’ll perhaps come to me and say, Hey, I listened to that conversation with Michael. And here’s what you did well, and here’s what you could do differently next time. That’s the power of an ally, they help us to be better, and reduce the fear of failure.
 
Michael Hingson ** 58:12
And they do it out of love. They don’t do it out of spite. And they do it because they truly want to be supportive. And they trust yes, that you’re going to accept that they’re doing it for the right reasons.
 
Morag Barrett ** 58:27
Indeed, so doing it out of love, which, again, in an HR appropriate way in the workplace. And it may mean that we are best friends that work for this project. But when I leave, if I move back to the UK, we may lose touch, that’s fine. It isn’t necessarily that we are going to be best buddies forever or that I need to take you home to meet my mother and we’re going to hang out after work. But definitely when we talk about psychological safety building a high trust team, than having an Ally Mindset and the ally behaviors, that mean we are working together and not against each other. That is the secret to success.
 
Michael Hingson ** 59:07
What’s one thing that anyone can do to become a better ally?
 
Morag Barrett ** 59:12
Well, the first thing I’m going to suggest is to complete our Ally Mindset Profile because then you’ll get your personal insights as to the five practices and where you might want to invest some care and attention. So you can do that at Skye team S k y e, Team dot cloud, forward slash youmewe, and all by the book and bounce the first thing and there is that but in the book we talk about the first step in becoming an ally is to look up to assess the relationship health around you. So simply by asking, How do I want others to feel in my presence? How do I feel in my presence? And the answer to that question will help to inform how you may need to show up, and what behaviors you may need to step up and do differently in order to shift your leadership influence and reputation.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:00:12
And I think one of the important things about how to become a better ally is to also start by deciding that you want to be
 
Morag Barrett ** 1:00:23
yes. Now, if you want to be seen as the brilliant jerk at work, the pain at the end of the misunderstood genius, fine, go wild. Thankfully, there aren’t many people most of us are getting up because we want to do a good job to feel like our voice and our opinion matters. And to feel like we belong, we started in the green room earlier talking about diversity and inclusion. Those are the three things and having being an ally. And having an Ally Mindset. Being an ally means that maybe that feeling of belonging is just between you and I to start with. But then it’s you and I and to others, and then it’s the four of us and another team. And before you know it, you’ve got a culture within your organization that truly does tap into the talents
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:01:09
of everybody. And that’s what you really want is to build that kind of a real close team. Yes. Well, this has been fun. And I guess I would ask if people want to reach out to you and learn more about you maybe engaged some of your services or whatever, and also buy your books. How do they do that? Well, first
 
Morag Barrett ** 1:01:36
of all, please do connect with me on LinkedIn, and you’ll get to see some of the newsletters and showcase some of our work there. Feel free to message me via LinkedIn, it’s me the answers, not a bot. And then you can also check out some of our work at Skye team S k y e Team at.com, our comm corporate website and the books. They’re available from all retailers and currently in Paperback or hardback, Kindle, and audio with the audio of cultivate being available next spring.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:02:09
So Did did you self publish or did the publishing company publish?
 
Morag Barrett ** 1:02:16
I’ve done all versions of publishing but we chose to self published you may we it gave us more creative license over what we wanted to do. And the three of us my best friends at work are expensive and Ruby Vasily. Not only did we write the book together, but we also recorded the audio book together. So now that you’ve heard the accent, if you wish to continue that theme, then you will hear more of it on the audio version of Umi. We
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:02:42
will There you go. That’s enough to have to work on that. And I really very much not work on the accent work on getting the books. Oh, yeah, I
 
Morag Barrett ** 1:02:53
understood. But I
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:02:55
really have enjoyed this. Well, what’s your, your name on LinkedIn? How do people find you on LinkedIn,
 
1:03:01
Morag, M o r a g. It’s a Scottish name means great. So Morag Barrett B a, double r e double T. And you will see my picture there and find me.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:12
There you go. So I hope people will do that. I hope people will reach out I hope people will buy the books. I think you gave us information about a free book also.
 
Morag Barrett ** 1:03:22
I did. Yes. So I think we have a code for you don’t we that too, or download an audiobook. So I’ll leave that with Michael to put into the show notes. But we have a number of copies available. For the first come first served folks who choose to sign up. So please do and you can get a free copy. In fact, now I’m rereading my notes if they message me through LinkedIn. So we’ll redo that. If you message me through LinkedIn saying that you heard our conversation, then let me know whether you would like an audio version or an ebook version. I have 25 copies of each available to those first up to 50 folks who messaged me that I would happily share.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:04:11
Well, that is so cool. I appreciate you doing that. And I hope people will take advantage of that. And thank you, you lots of lots of things from people will Morag Thank you very much for being here. And I want to thank you for listening to us today. We appreciate it. And for all of you who couldn’t be more actress, you know of anyone else who want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let me know. You can reach me in a number of different ways. We’re on LinkedIn and so on and it’s Michael Hingson and sign double, both to reach out to and to explore me coming in being a speaker for you wherever you need someone to come and speak and talk about anything from September 11 to whatever makes sense to discuss inclusion and diversity and so on. But also We’d love to hear your thoughts you can email me Michael hingson and you can email Michaelhi at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And wherever you’re listening, please give us a five star rating. We value those, we appreciate it. But most of all, I really want to get your thoughts, your comments we really want to hear and I know Morag will agree that we want to hear whatever you think and whatever you’d have to say about us today. So reach out to any of us and we will all make sure that everyone gets the message. So thank you for doing that. And giving us a five star rating as I said, and just thank you for being here with us, and they will be back with us again next week. And Morag I want to thank you one last time for being here with us as well.
 
Morag Barrett ** 1:05:52
Thank you Michael and good luck.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:05:59
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.