Episode 200 – Unstoppable Savvy Fundraiser with Haley Cooper
Haley Cooper grew up in Orange County California. She clearly grew up loving life. After attending college she was deciding what to do with her life when an opportunity appeared to travel to Malawi, Africa as part of a Christian mission.
Eight months after returning to California from this first mission she was approached and asked to return to Malawi to help start and grow a manufacturing program to create food to help improve the nutrition of people in villages who, up to that time, tended to be quite malnourished. The plant Haley started manufactured, ready, peanut butter. Actually, there was a bit more to the product, but peanut butter was the main ingredient. Haley will tell us the whole story and show us how what she did made an incredible difference to so many.
After returning to the United States after two years Haley embarked on a career as a fundraising professional for various nonprofit companies. Along the way she married and now is the mom of three children. Her oldest son who is four years old is adopted. The adoption story for Haley is inspiring and worth hearing.
Two years ago Haley began her own philanthropic fundraising consulting company, The Savvy Fundraiser. While we discuss the company and fundraising in general you get to hear a conversation about sales, selling and fundraising. Our discussion about the philosophy of these topics is fun and quite relevant. I leave it to you to listen and decide for yourself if Haley and I are on the right track.
As always, I would love to hear your thoughts about our episode. Please feel free to email me at firstname.lastname@example.org. And, of course, when you listen to this episode, please give us a 5* rating. Thanks.
About the Guest:
Haley is a passionate and accomplished professional with a diverse skill set in the nonprofit sector. As a Certified Fund Raising Executive (CFRE), Certified Stress Management Coach, and Certified EmC train the trainer, she brings a wealth of expertise to her work. Haley’s journey began in 2012 when she founded PB+J in Malawi, Africa, establishing her commitment to making a positive impact for children and youth.
Since then, she has honed her abilities while working with various small and large nonprofit teams, focusing on human services, homelessness, and youth sectors. Haley is the Founder and CEO of The Savvy Fundraiser and her specialties include the EmC process, nonprofit leadership, board development, and fundraising.
Ways to connect with Haley:
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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**Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit
to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
**Michael Hingson ** 01:21
Hi there and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today we’re going to have some fun we’ve got a really interesting person to chat with Haley Cooper, unless you talk to her mom and sometimes her mom pronounces it Haley Cooper but and my computer by the way with Jaw’s pronounces at Halle, but I’m smart enough to know that it’s really Haley. But Haley Halle tomato tomahto I couldn’t resist this. Well anyway, welcome to unstoppable mindset, Haley, and we’re really glad that you’re here with us.
**Haley Cooper ** 01:56
Well, thank you so much, Michael. It’s so good to be here. And I’m so glad that we found a time that has worked for us. And I’m just delighted and honored to be able to chat with you.
**Michael Hingson ** 02:06
And on top of everything else, sports fans. Haley lives in Lake Forest, California, which is only what would you say about oh, from Victorville? Probably about 60 miles. No more than
**Haley Cooper ** 02:19
Yeah, maybe. Maybe I could throw you a football? Yeah, yeah.
**Michael Hingson ** 02:24
Well are probably easier for me to throw something from here because we’re up higher.
**Haley Cooper ** 02:29
Oh, there you go. Yeah, you’d
**Michael Hingson ** 02:30
have to throw away up hill. But Haley lives fairly close to where I attended college at University of California at Irvine. And then we live my wife and I in Mission Viejo for a while. So anyway, we’re really glad you’re here with us. And I want to thank you for for joining us. So why don’t we start? The fun way to start? Tell us about kind of the early Halley growing up and all that sort of stuff?
**Haley Cooper ** 02:55
Yeah, that’s a good question. And I’ve been reflecting on that. And you know, as I’ve been listening to your podcasts episodes, I’m like, What is my story? Who who is Haley, who is family
**Michael Hingson ** 03:05
anyway? Who has real power that really Haley Halle, stand up?
**Haley Cooper ** 03:12
There you go. But you know, obviously, I grew up in Orange County, and I grew up and over really good family that, you know, my family was deeply committed to philanthropy and giving back to the community. It’s been a part and ingrained in my life from as early as I can remember. You know, my grandparents would always invite us to ballet shows. They were a part of an organization called the St. Joseph ballet that is now the wooden floor at you know, reflecting back I’m like, now I’m a nonprofit leader, which we’ll get to like, I didn’t understand philanthropy, I just understood that it was a way of life. I also grew up in the Christian church. And so service is giving to others, and helping others it’s just ingrained in in me. And, you know, aside from service with my family, I loved playing sports. I grew up running cross country and track played soccer was a very active child’s love to play. I’m one of five children. And with my two parents, and I just, you know, remember as a child, volunteering, and aside from playing sports, volunteering with my family, and, you know, from a young age, I was exposed to the importance of that and making a positive impact on the world.
**Michael Hingson ** 04:30
So where did you grow up? What Round Lake Forest or where I grew up in Laguna Niguel? Ah, so still right in the area?
**Haley Cooper ** 04:39
Yeah. And I went to from preschool to 12th grade I went to the same school St. Margaret’s in San Juan Capistrano. And it’s funny because one of my one of my very best dear friends is my friend from preschool. So we’ve been friends for I mean, I won’t date myself but 36 years. You That’s okay.
**Michael Hingson ** 05:03
Nothing wrong. Don’t be ashamed. I mean, I was born in 1950. You can do the math. Yes. So so I’m not I’m not ashamed by it. It’s okay. Well, that’s that’s pretty cool. I did student teaching when I took teacher training at UC Irvine from the teacher’s college, their university high in Irvine. So that was kind of fun. Yeah,
**Haley Cooper ** 05:28
we played them in soccer. Who won? We did. Okay. No, actually, I think it was pretty fair, pretty. I remember them being pretty competitive. But I, I would like to remember that we, we kicked their butts.
**Michael Hingson ** 05:43
Now we need to get somebody on from University High from from back in those days. Yeah. And and see what we can do. So we need to get somebody from somewhere in the 1990s. And so on to come on and see if we can get a real story. So
**Haley Cooper ** 06:03
that’s two sides of the story. Right? Yeah. But
**Michael Hingson ** 06:06
unless they say, Yeah, they really kicked our butts.
**Haley Cooper ** 06:12
Well, I hope I hope they remember it the way I
**Michael Hingson ** 06:15
so what did you major in in college?
**Haley Cooper ** 06:17
Yeah, so I went to St. Mary’s College of California in Moraga, California at the East Bay. And I studied Kinesiology, Health and Human Performance. That’s what I graduated with my bachelor’s degree in. And I love science, all things science, I love learning how the body works, and being able to help others implement that. Well. I don’t necessarily do that now.
**Michael Hingson ** 06:44
So what’s the big? So what’s the big bang theory, one of your favorite TV shows?
**Haley Cooper ** 06:48
I guess I do like that show. Just checking the genus of that show. But yeah, I really, you know, like I said, I was always involved in sports, and it was a part of my lifestyle growing up. And, you know, somehow, my dad has five kids was able to make it to every single person’s that soccer game or sports event, sometimes you’re playing at the same time on the same field, but he was able to make it to all so being able to leverage that in college, and it was something that I was really excited about. And I really enjoyed, you know, it was one of the only colleges at the time that offer that major, specifically, there are different tracks that you could take, but I’ve chose Health and Human Performance and really enjoyed it.
**Michael Hingson ** 07:34
How did you say health and human performance?
**Haley Cooper ** 07:36
How helping human performance?
**Michael Hingson ** 07:39
Okay, yeah. Okay, that’s that was just making sure. That’s that, though, is pretty interesting. Why did you choose that?
**Haley Cooper ** 07:48
So like I said, you know, sports was heavily involved in my upbringing, my dad had also graduated with a degree in exercise physiology. And so it was just something that, you know, I was passionate about, and found interest in and was able to excel in. And so I really, yeah, I just like the aspect of learning how the body works, and being able to help that other people implement healthy lifestyles.
**Michael Hingson ** 08:19
Cool. Well, and why did you? Well, what, what drove you to doing that? Like, was it just your upbringing that you just felt that that was kind of a way to give back a little bit, do you think?
**Haley Cooper ** 08:34
I think so. So I actually entered college as a communications major, because that’s what I thought I wanted to do. But looking back, I’m glad I did not go down that road, because that is just, it’s, it was just not for me. And I found, you know, I found this and I think it was because of my upbringing, that really was instrumental in helping me choose, choose this major, and get interested in all and specifically, you know, I really liked physiology and Exercise Physiology and what we would do, as our final project, as a senior was developing, like, we had all the you could do the waterway, I forget what it’s called, but like weigh yourself underwater, and that’s the most accurate way to weigh yourself. And then we did different activities. And we were able to prescribe exercise and nutrition plans based on the measurements that we took.
**Michael Hingson ** 09:29
So how do you weigh or how do you weigh yourself underwater?
**Haley Cooper ** 09:33
You know, college was a long time ago, I have to remember Ah, there you go. But you sit on a chair and you go underwater, and I think it takes out everything. I wish I remembered what I now I’m gonna have to Google it. But yeah, I think it’s the most accurate way because it takes out all the other like, fluid and build up that you can get on other scales.
**Michael Hingson ** 09:57
Interesting. I’m gonna have to google that and learn about that. myself, that would be kind of fun to do. But it makes sense. As you say, it takes up a lot of other things. So
**Haley Cooper ** 10:07
says it’s the most accurate way to measure body fat. You’re submerged in water while you sit on a scale and then you calculate your body fat percentage.
**Michael Hingson ** 10:17
Got it? Okay. Yeah. Interesting. I’m gonna have to go see where I can do that. Yeah,
**Haley Cooper ** 10:26
maybe at your local gym? Possibly. So
**Michael Hingson ** 10:29
you graduated from college? And then what did you go off and do?
**Haley Cooper ** 10:36
So I was sitting in my parents church in Aliso Viejo, California, right? When I graduated college, and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do and on stage. You know, someone was like, Hey, we’re doing a missions trip to Malawi, Africa. Does anyone want to go? All we ask of you is to sponsor children through World Vision. And then, you know, obviously raised the money. I think it was about $2,500 to go on the trip. And that included the flight, the stay the food, everything. And like I said, my family was philanthropically. Locally, we had never really traveled outside of the country. I had been to England once when my older sister studied abroad there. But again, it was very local. And I was like, Hey, mom, and dad, guess where I’m going this summer? I was like, I’m going to Malawi, and they’re like, Haley, what are you like, what’s like, where did you get that idea from? And, you know, when I graduated from college, he more inclined to give me gifts or money was part of my family tradition. But I asked him to give me money to go towards this trip. And so in August of 2012, by August 2011, sorry, that’s when I graduated college, I went to my first trip to Malawi, Africa. And honestly, before I went, I had to Google where the country was because it’s a little sliver of Africa. And this little country, next to Tanzania and Mozambique, and Zambia. And I went there and my eyes were just opened, you know, someone who grew up in Orange County, just open up to a different way of living a different lifestyle. And it really changed. It changed my life. And I came back and you think after two weeks, or you know, you go on a retreat, you go on a missions trip, you get back into the daily life, and you kind of forget that invigorating feeling, and that joy that you experience, obviously, there was a lot of hardship. But on that trip, we did a lot of discipleship, we hosted games for kids. We went and did gospel outreach in the communities met with chiefs. And got to know got to know the community. And after that, I was I came back and I was living at my parents house working at a local coffee shop. It was right kind of in the middle of the recession. So finding jobs is hard. And I was applying to colleges to become a registered dietician. And I kept getting denial after denial, and it just was not working out. That’s the path that I thought I wanted to go down. And I remember one night that I just broke down. And like I said, I’m a Christian. So I said, God, like give me an answer. I will submit to you like, show me something that you want me to do, because this is not working out. And what I want isn’t working. And that literally that next day, the guy who led the missions trip called my dad, because they were good friends at the time. It was like, Hey, does Haley want to go make peanut butter and Malawi for a year? And I went to go, my dad was like, hey, like, do you want to do this? So I met with a guy that is he was a former lawyer, and I met in his office and he presented me the idea. And I was like, Yes, I will send me I will go. And this is about eight months after my initial trip. And he was like Haley literally go home and pray on it. Like you gotta think about this overnight. And I was like, nope, what are we doing? How are we doing this? And this really evolved out of this idea that, you know, with the original missions trip that we went on, they were trying to end malaria deaths for all children under five. But they found that these children were still passing away because they didn’t have the nutrition table to fight disease. And the original founder had heard about this company on 60 minutes with Anderson Cooper about ready to use therapeutic food that was making tremendous difference in children experiencing malnutrition. So I got out my mom’s KitchenAid mixers in her kitchen. And luckily, this company who had developed this product gave us the formula obviously with the agreement that if we ever sold it, they would get a royalty off of it. But we’ve I started making peanut butter in my parents kitchen, and in August of 2012. I moved to Malawi, for For about two years and then went back and forth for for two years leaning missions trips and checking on the mission. And then I literally started, I always like to say this is like a fun fact is I literally started a peanut butter factory from scratch, and learned how to make it UNICEF approved. So my last trip was to Copenhagen to a UNICEF conference that was on this product, to literally it’s kind of like, they’re kind of like the FDA, if you will, like of regulation for this product. And there’s very specific tests you have to do. We had to send our product to London, to get it tested before we could give it out to people and get the test results back. And because some things in the peanut butter, because there is a milk powder in it, there could be bacteria, and also the way that people prepare the nuts. Could be there can be aflatoxin, if they get wet. And people generally put rocks in it. Or if they sell bags, they put they get them wet so that they way more way more. Yeah, yeah, so we actually started a co op of peanut farmers that would then sell it to a business and they would make the good price. And then they would blend in roast them for us. And then we had a whole factory that we developed that was next to a hospital. Meanwhile, while I’m building this, I’m also living in an apartment with three other Germans, German ladies, and we didn’t have water, we now have water in our apartment. So we had someone who would come and clean our house daily, she also made the most amazing bread. And she would go to the well and get us water each day. And we would have to heat it up and heat it up in the water heater, and then you take a bath out of the bucket. And so that’s how that’s how I lived. And then we were finally able to get water. Yeah, that’s a really amazing and hard experience. I think I learned a lot about, you know, I was 24 at the time, so a lot about myself and a lot about other people’s cultures and how to really, really work with a diverse group of people.
**Michael Hingson ** 17:17
How, how well, was the whole mission effort, especially at the beginning, how well was it accepted? Was there a lot of skepticism as you came in and wanted to start this whole manufacturing process? And all that? Or did people feel that it made perfect sense or what? Yeah,
**Haley Cooper ** 17:37
that’s a good question. So we had to get approval by a few people. So when was the so there’s a hierarchical system in the villages. And I remember we had to go to the chief have to there’s chiefs that run each village. And then there’s like the chief of the chief, and we went to her house, and we had to bring her like six chickens and a goat or something. And we waited in her house. And we had to ask her for permission to start this, we weren’t able to start it unless we had permission from her. And luckily, she granted, we we made the case that we were going to bring it out into villages, because a lot of people would travel at least 20 miles to go to the hospital. And we found that, you know, they’re waiting till the last minute. And so we wanted to go out into the health care centers and deliver this product to the to the healthcare screening so that people didn’t have to wait till the last minute, because if they’re traveling, they’re missing a day of getting water cooking for their family. And so we were able to bring it out and get their approval, and then we obviously had to get them allow government approval. And I think what else really helped was employing Malawian people to run the factory. So we wanted to get buy in from the local people and be able to empower them to have jobs.
**Michael Hingson ** 19:06
So were you able to see a difference that you made in the time that you were there because you started providing the peanut butter and is it you’ve referred to it as peanut butter, but you’ve also said it’s a food I guess there’s a lot of other stuff in it isn’t just peanut butter.
**Haley Cooper ** 19:26
Yeah, so in the product, there’s peanut butter. It literally tastes like the inside of a Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup. Because there is sugar, there’s sugar in it milk, a protein powder. And I think that was all that was it. Okay. So it is very nutritious each it’s like in a packet and each packet has 500 calories in it. So it was an enclosed package. So we had like this, we would put the peanut butter in it and then put it in the package and seal it and we did on an hour average of two weeks, like kids were making leaps and bounds, they were gaining weight, they were healthy. I mean, health, healthy as a relative term, getting healthier from things, we also use it to help. Mothers with, or individuals with HIV tend to be more mothers that are identified people with tuberculosis so that they could fight the disease. And also for that people who are taking HIV medicine, they need that protein to be able to digest the medicine. And so we are able, we’re seeing that, you know, it really was working. And, you know, we also partnered with another organization that would provide supplemental food, called Luke Cooney, Paula, to help supplement the rest of the family, because we did find that, you know, if a kid is getting it, sometimes the family you know, everyone shares everything. And so we had to be able to supplement it so the kid can actually get the beneficial nutrients from that product.
**Michael Hingson ** 21:03
Did they eat it straight? Or did they put it on bread? Or how was it generally taken in?
**Haley Cooper ** 21:10
Both so gonna just cut out cut open the Sasha and eat it? Or they would mix it into their porridge? Or they call it in Sema, which is pretty much it’s kind of like a mashed potato bow bun kind of consistency. It’s made of corn powder. And that’s what they would mix it with me. Okay.
**Michael Hingson ** 21:33
But you certainly gained acceptance for, for providing this and people realize that it was doing good for them.
**Haley Cooper ** 21:42
Yes, yes, I would, I would agree with that statement.
**Michael Hingson ** 21:45
So you did this for a couple of years. And then why? Well, it doesn’t continue today. Why did you leave? Or did you feel that it had grown that to the point where it could could go on without you or what? So
**Haley Cooper ** 22:03
it still does exist today? I have, like I said, I’m been involved since 2016. And, you know, I moved back after two years, and I got involved with our local AFP Association of Fundraising Professionals chapter and really learned about fundraising and found that I really enjoyed it. And it just came to a time where I think like you said, like it had grown to a point where I felt comfortable leaving and letting other people there was a Malawian Country Director kind of run. And then there’s another founder that from the US that kind of oversees it. Not the original founder, but one of the original founders does. And so, you know, I had joined this AFP Association really got involved in the local community. And really, that’s really what started my fundraising journey over the last 1011 years, is getting involved in local community, mostly organizations serving people experiencing homelessness, and youth experiencing homelessness and hunger.
**Michael Hingson ** 23:10
So you came back? And what what did you do first, when you came back? Or how did you evolve to what you’re doing now? What did you start with? And what do you do?
**Haley Cooper ** 23:22
So it was funny, because, as you know, I was a founder and executive director right at 2425 20 sites. And I had to start from the bottom again, I had to go back to being an entry level development person, which was actually really beneficial, because it helped me learn a lot about the ins and outs and intricacies of fundraising. So I was working for a local organization that was helping kids experiencing homelessness from kindergarten to 12th grade. And then I think they expanded to college because they found that the need was still great here locally. And since then, you know, I’ve just gained really valuable experiencing by working in these fundraising roles, like starting from the bottom. My last role was as Director of Development. I’ve worked at both large and small nonprofits. So I have seen it all. And I’ve seen that I really, you know, when I was in person really enjoyed the grassroots organizations that, you know, a lot of the ones that I had been hired at, had been around for 30 years, but never prioritized fundraising. They had been so focused on programs. And then they came to a point where they’re like, well, we want to go our programs, but we need fundraising. And fundraising is always a board term that people scare away from and they’re like, we don’t we don’t like fundraising. We, we don’t want to I just did a board training last week and they were like, We don’t know anyone. We don’t want to fundraise and I was like you’re my favorite person. I’m gonna get that mindset change. Yeah, and this is serious just working on all these levels. All of these different organizations just helped me understand like the challenges and opportunities and emotional whirlwind that it can be working in the nonprofit sector.
**Michael Hingson ** 25:12
So let’s talk about the whole idea of fundraising a little bit. I’ve been in professional sales, basically, all of my adult life. And I still think as a speaker, I’m in sales. Now I, as I love to tell people selling philosophy and life as opposed to computers, but still, the sales processes there. I’ve met a lot of fundraisers and I worked at Guide Dogs for the Blind, which is a pretty large charity up in Northern California and one of the largest in California, and certainly the largest guide dog school in the country. And in dealing with all of the development folks up there and meeting a lot of people at the association, fundraising professionals in San Francisco, they love to say fundraising isn’t sales, it’s totally different. And it’s not the same. And you can’t look at it the same. What do you think
**Haley Cooper ** 26:05
about that? So I think there’s aspects of fundraising that is salesy, and I think salespeople can come into fundraising roles and vice versa. I think the thing that is different is sales is based on a transaction. So it’s based on getting a service in return and paying a price. I think in fundraising what, what it should be, obviously, some people still treat it as a transaction, exchanging informational, it should be helping people realize their greatest potential through your mission. And I had someone on my podcast last week, talking about like, helping people realize their generosity, helping people become their most generous selves, their most their highest potential, because we all know the benefits of generosity, we all know the benefits of giving. And my role is to help understand as a fundraiser, what that looks like for you. And then once you give, once you give, reporting back to you how that’s making a difference. So I think that’s that’s the difference. It’s not just me asking you for money. It’s me, trying to figure out what your passions and interests are, how that aligns with our mission, and then helping you fulfill those passions and interests. By investing in the area that you’re you’re interested in. See,
**Michael Hingson ** 27:22
I have a slightly different view of sales. And my career in sales began when I was called into an office and I was doing basically different kinds of human factors studies for Ray Kurzweil and computer Kurzweil Computer Products, dealing with reading machine for the blind and another technologies and finding out how to make them be better. I was called in one day and was told well, we’re having to lay you off because you’re not a revenue producer. And we need more revenue producers, unless you want to go into sales. And what I chose to do was to go into sales, I felt that God was leading me to do that. I had moved to Boston, and I didn’t want to go off and try to find another job, especially when the unemployment rate among employable blind people back then, and still pretty much today is in the 65 to 70% range. But anyway, I took a 10 week, Dale Carnegie’s sales course. And what I learned is that real sales, is, you can say that there’s a transaction that takes place. But real sales is a lot more about being a teacher and a counselor, and learning what the customer needs. And seeing if what you say and what you can do, and if you can provide something to help meet those needs. And the reality is I’ve had situations where I’ve done demonstrations for customers, and even going into the demonstration and conversing with them learned that what we had wouldn’t work for filling all of their needs. But I went ahead and did our product demonstrations for the purpose of saying, here’s why what we have doesn’t work. But the other side of that is by doing that. I was also building trust, and teaching people a lot about the technologies so that oftentimes we would get calls sometime later saying, we have another project and we understand what your product does, and it’s perfect for what we want to do. So we’re not even going to put it out for bid just give us a quote. But the reality is that the sales part is really more about teaching and developing and report, which is a lot of what happens in fundraising. Unfortunately, I think a lot of salespeople don’t realize that.
**Haley Cooper ** 29:52
Yeah, that I mean, that’s valid. I like that. I like that reflection of what sales is, I think both in the comments All it is relationship building, and building that rapport, before you go to the transaction that is inevitable to happen if you’ve done your homework and you build that relationship. Yeah, you
**Michael Hingson ** 30:11
got to do that otherwise, it doesn’t work in the long run. And I’ve actually, as a public speaker, now, I’ve met people who I sold to many years before, and they would come up to me and say, Do you remember me, and sometimes I recognize their voices, but sometimes I didn’t. But when they said who it was, we had all sorts of great conversations about it. But again, it was because of building the trust. And I think that’s what real sales is all about. And the fact we’re all if we’re really cognizant of what we do in life, we’re all selling in one way or another. And a lot of times, what we should be selling is being open to trust, and developing trusting relationships. And, you know, we are we are seeing in our society so much today, a lack of trust, or a lack of even being open to trust, because the people that we should be trusting aren’t doing anything to earn our trust, which is also one unfortunate thing.
**Haley Cooper ** 31:14
Yeah, and yeah, and I’ve seen that a lot in the nonprofit sector as well. Of, of that lack of trust, to giving, but I think, like you said, it is all about building that trust. And you know, on the board training I did last week, I was like, if you build that trust, if you build those relationships, because board members get there like we don’t, we don’t like asking, I’m not going to ask people for money. Now it’s like, well, you don’t have to ask for money, you can ask for advice. But the asking comes easy. If you have built that trust, if you have built that relationship, because it is so aligned, that it makes sense to ask that person if they’re willing to give X amount of dollars, whatever, whatever it is, but it is all built on that trust and connection with the mission with the person who’s facilitating that investment. Because otherwise, people don’t want to give. Yeah,
**Michael Hingson ** 32:08
so the people you were training last week, what were some of the backgrounds of the people who said they didn’t like to ask for money.
**Haley Cooper ** 32:16
And a lot of educational, higher ed professionals, like they did not have a network of people to ask. So or the financial ability to ask and to give. But we know that there’s more than financial ability, what I coached them on was asking for advice. So if you ask for advice, I don’t know the quote. But if you ask for advice, people give money. And so I think people in I don’t remember the quote. But yeah, inviting people in and asking in a different way. And then also, you know, could you give $5 a month, instead of, you know, we’ve all heard that, like, give $5 instead of purchasing a Starbucks drink, which is now like $10, for one? Could you invite them to do like peer to peer fundraising? So is people who felt they didn’t really have assets now to be more than network now to be able to give, but I kind of did the bubble chart with them. Or it was like, Where do you hang out? Like, what do you do identify one or two people of where you hang out? Whether that’s like the gym or religious plays a chamber of commerce, your workplace, your family, friends? And then tell them about the mission? Like, yeah, people don’t like my husband always has to remind me that I have a network of people that I can like, talk to you. Sometimes you just need that reminder that there are people out there.
**Michael Hingson ** 33:41
Well, and another thing to look at is, what is teaching? Isn’t that really a form of sales in a way because you’re you’re selling students on the idea of gaining knowledge. And the better teachers are the ones that can establish again that relationship and convey knowledge in a way that makes students want to pick it up. And if that isn’t sales, I don’t know what is.
**Haley Cooper ** 34:09
Well, Annie, you know, this organization is serving at promise youth and it pairs college people, college students with kids K through eight, or I think that’s what it is. But they understand, you know, what these youth experience. I mean, one in five students in California and the community college system are experiencing homelessness and hunger, so they understand it. So I’m like, Well, you understand it at a level of the students that have come across to you. So they have that level of passion and story that they can share. From that level of knowledge.
**Michael Hingson ** 34:48
I really do believe that the best salespeople are teachers, first and foremost. And I think that’s also true for fundraising, having been been very much involved in development work for six and a half years it Guide Dogs for the Blind. And it was fascinating to hear the development people say, this isn’t a salesy thing at all. Well, they really need to maybe go back and look at things, but it’s like so many things, people create their own mystique about what they do, rather than looking for the commonalities and ways to establish up a more synergistic relationship.
**Haley Cooper ** 35:30
Yeah, I mean, I have to go back to them and say, like, you’re a teacher, you make the perfect fundraiser?
**Michael Hingson ** 35:35
Well, yeah, I mean, look what you’re doing, you’re, you’re only trying to sell knowledge and convince people that they should learn this stuff, why should they learn it. And that’s actually an interesting thing in society, we seeing all the stuff going on around the country, and whether it’s book banning, or all the other things and people trying to talk about this whole concept of, we can’t have critical race theory, or we have so many different things they, they’re trying to, again, to, to sell stuff that makes no sense. Or there are a number of good teachers who are trying to sell things that do make good sense. And I think the biggest thing that we can teach people is to really evaluate for themselves, which is another whole story. Rather than just accepting, even from the best teachers, the best teachers would tell you go research it yourself and learn it. Because ultimately, teachers can’t teach us all they can do is convey the knowledge we have to teach ourselves. That’s good. You know, I used to say, I’m my own worst critic, and I realized earlier this year, actually, not the thing to say, I’m my own best teacher, because I am the one that’s going to have to teach me to do whatever it is. And it’s also a much more positive thing to say that.
**Haley Cooper ** 36:52
Yeah, like that perspective, anything out of our own, it’s always a learning opportunity, right? To teach us something. Yeah. And
**Michael Hingson ** 37:00
that’s just as much what fundraising is all about. Because you’re, you’re teaching people you want them to, to give, but you also want them to understand what’s going on. And it is so hard, I think, for so many people here to realize what it must have been like in Malawi or, and other places, because we’ve not really as a society overall experienced a lot of that. I haven’t experienced a lot of the poverty that that you have probably seen, and other people have seen, and I’ve been to a number of countries, but I’ve seen enough that I can understand it and relate to it. And I’ve also seen how blind people and people with physical disabilities are oftentimes treated here. Again, because people don’t know how to relate. And we’re not doing enough to really educate people about some of these things to get them to the point where they would be maybe much more apt to want to contribute to address the issues.
**Haley Cooper ** 38:03
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think the role is a fundraiser is to educate to educate people on the cause. Because, you know, like I said, I grew up in Orange County, and most people think of Newport Beach. But when it comes down to it, there’s over, I don’t know what the status is now. But when I was working with youth facing organizations are about 28,000 kids experiencing homelessness. And so you think of, you know, you think of Disneyland you think of Newport Beach, and so it was our role to explain what that looks like, like, what does homelessness look like for a family and also in inspire and inform? So I think those are the three areas that we have the privilege of fundraisers or nonprofit professionals. It’s part of our responsibility is to educate, inform and inspire.
**Michael Hingson ** 38:50
Yeah, I think that’s absolutely true. And maybe that’s the most important part of the responsibility, because people have to start doing more thinking. And I certainly don’t have any problem with somebody saying, Well, I hear what you’re saying, but I’m going to check it out for myself. My response is go to it. But make sure you really check it out. And then let’s talk about it. And you learn very quickly, who really checks things out and who doesn’t, but it still is the way to do it. Yeah, I agree. So it’s kind of fun. And I don’t know, the world is an interesting place. And I think over time, we’ll, we’ll see that people will. I think, when they really think about it, we’ll learn to investigate, but we’ve got to get back to encouraging people to do that. And one of the things I talk about a lot, and I mentioned it earlier is the whole issue of trust. We have so many environments where trust is under attack in our country. And that’s the difference between us and dogs, right dogs don’t trust arbitrarily. They love unconditionally but they don’t trust unconditionally. but dogs are more open to trust, unless they’ve just been so abused. But typically, dogs are much more open to trust, and they want to establish a trusting relationship. We need to learn how to do more of that ourselves.
**Haley Cooper ** 40:15
Yeah, I heard you say that on another podcast. I don’t remember his name. But you had mentioned that and I was I was that that piqued my interest. And I think, you know, people have to do their due diligence because there’s so much stuff, it readily access to things that you have to do you have to discern the truth for yourself and understand what is the truth and facilitate that trust? Yeah.
**Michael Hingson ** 40:41
It’s important to do that, when that will also tell you and teach you who you can trust or not trust. Yeah, that’s true. So, anyway. So now do you work for yourself? Or do you work for a company or what?
**Haley Cooper ** 40:59
So I had I in 2022, I embarked on my entrepreneurial journey to start my own business. I am a mom of now three kids under four. And working as a full time director development just wasn’t realistic. When of my son, my oldest son is adopted, and he had some developmental delays. And so the all of 2022 was really dedicated to getting him services and working full time just wasn’t realistic. Because as a fundraiser, you have to be available in mornings at all hours. And that just, you know, as becoming a mom, that just wasn’t realistic. So I started my own business called the savvy fundraiser. And it’s evolved in the last few years that it started. But you know, one thing that really, I found, and I’m trained in a process called the EMC process, it’s about emotional connection. And that’s, that’s an area that, you know, I help facilitate psychological safety and trust within teams. You know, I’ve done the fundraising roles, I’ve done the fundraising trainings, but I truly believe that fundraise inside job, we have to take care of ourselves, we have to understand the language of emotions. And also, you know, it’s, it’s always a two fold thing, like it’s an individual thing, but it’s also a systemic thing. Because burnout is so pervasive in our culture, people are leaving, there’s high turnover. And that that costs the sector a lot of money. And we’re already limited resources. And so how can we better invest in our people and invest in ourselves to be able to do the work that we intend to do so my focus right now is group coaching and creating masterminds, but like I said, I also do trainings that help create emotional connection and buy in among staff members, so that they can actually focus on their fundraising efforts. And part of that is, you know, really understanding the language of emotions, because there’s a lot of, you know, nonprofits, it’s an emotional world. And like I said before, and we’re seeing the hardest issues. And it can take us through, you know, the depths of sadness and anger to profound joy, where I saw a kid getting healthy, or a kid having access to food so that they can focus at school and getting good grades, and graduating college. And I think, you know, it’s not just essential for our well being, but just building this idea of a culture of emotional connection. And facilitating that within ourselves, can actually increase your productivity. So that’s where I’m at right now is really focusing on this process, and helping leaders understand the language of emotion and practice mindfulness practices, so that they can get back to that creative state of being. What
**Michael Hingson ** 43:53
does EMC stand for? emotional connection, it is emotional connection. Yeah, so the EM is emotional and then connection. That’s
**Haley Cooper ** 44:02
right. And it was developed by Dr. Lola Gershenfeld, who is a mentor and coach of mine, and she developed it based on decades of experience. And you know, I found her in 2017 No, sorry, 2019 When I was in the midst of an organization that had a lot of burnout and stress, and I don’t want to say toxicity, but that’s probably too steep of a word, but there was there was just this, I should say disconnection between team members between me and the IDI and I’ll totally on my part in that, but it was this lack of emotional disconnection, where we no longer felt in the team that we were safe. We didn’t really trust each other we didn’t feel seen or heard. And so you know, in those moments, productivity and effectiveness go down. So I thought out low let and I’m one of those people who likes to go all in so I was like, I want to become a trainer in this process. I See this in multiple organizations where people are really reactive. And when you know, we go into that flight or fight response, your amygdala is activated, and it takes over your prefrontal cortex and you’re no longer able to communicate or collaborate. So my role is to really help, like calm your amygdala so you can get back to doing the work that you do. And that’s by naming specific emotions. Because emotions are our high processing system, they tell us if we’re in flight or fight mode, they help us go into that protection mode. And so they run fast. And so my job is to help you understand specific emotions, because from a science standpoint, it does help relax that amygdala and be able to turn on, like, be able to reconnect with each other.
**Michael Hingson ** 45:50
Well, and unfortunately, we’re living in a world today where fear is all around us. And people mark it with fear. And they’re, they’re doing things to stir up emotions. And again, people don’t take the time to analyze, which is what really tends to drive people nuts after a while, because by not taking the time to slow down and be a little bit more mindful, they just become afraid or whatever. I’m actually writing a book called Live like a guide dog lessons I learned from a guide dogs in my life, by I forget the exact wording of the, the, the subtitle. But the whole point is that we’re basing it around lessons I’ve learned from working with a guide dogs about how to control fear. And the reality is that we don’t need to be as I would put it, blinded by fear, we can learn if we practice mindfulness, like you talked about. And if we really work at it, we can learn not to just go off the deep end, just because something unexpected happens like an airplane crashes into a building that we’re in, or any number of other things that we can learn to let that fear be a strong motivator and a guide and an incentive to us.
**Haley Cooper ** 47:16
Yeah, I’ll be interested to read that book. Because I think fear is a huge thing in the nonprofit sector. I mean, especially as case managers or social workers, like if you’re not on call, if you’re not, you’re working with the hardest issues, you’re seeing the hardest issues, you’re seeing people living on the street, you’re seeing women being abused, you’re seeing children being abused. And so if you’re not working, like you’re afraid that something bad is gonna happen. And so you have to you’re in that flight and fight mode all the time. Because you’re still focused on that fear, which is a valid fear, obviously, which is
**Michael Hingson ** 47:54
a valid fear, but you can’t be valid, but you have to get beyond it and not let it be the only thing that that drives you rather than being more strategic.
**Haley Cooper ** 48:04
**Michael Hingson ** 48:07
Now, my cat says she’s abused all the time. So I, you know, I’m not sensitive to fear. But no, it’s, but I hear what you’re saying. And you’re absolutely right. And people who are very committed to the the, the things that they do in the nonprofit world are, are very committed, because they, they appreciate it, they understand it, and they want to be successful and can’t argue with that.
**Haley Cooper ** 48:34
Yeah, and you think when, you know, part of this process, we go through different stages, and one of them is about fear. So, you know, we asked, like, how do you feel in your body emotions are stored in your body? And then, you know, I walked through this process with a family member because they were experiencing deep burnout. And I was like, What’s your fear? Like, what are you fear about yourself about the organization, about the relationship, and it was that they were going to let that person down, or the organization was going to run out of money. And once we were able to really understand where that fear was from and the emotion surrounding that, because this person was stuck, like they were not able to move forward. And there was a clear path ahead. But they couldn’t get to that because they were stuck in that fear. Just by naming it and understanding how they thought that fear impacted their relationships and themselves. They were able to make a decision. And that decision was to leave the organization. But it just helped them see that bigger picture and be able to be like, Oh, this makes sense. This is valid. But there’s also another way.
**Michael Hingson ** 49:44
We always think we have to be in control of everything. And the reality is there is so much that we don’t directly have control over and one of the lessons that I talked about, and I’m sure you’ve heard it on another podcast where we’ve talked about it is don’t worry about the things that you can’t control focus Something that you can, because if you worry about everything else, you’re just going to drive yourself crazy.
**Haley Cooper ** 50:06
Yes, I’m a recovering control freak. So that that applies to be.
**Michael Hingson ** 50:11
Well, we all have some of that, you know, and it is hard to let go. But it’s important to learn to to let go. Now, you said your oldest son is adopted. Tell me about that. That must have been quite a challenge to go through.
**Haley Cooper ** 50:26
Yeah, so you know, prior to 2019, my husband, I’ve been married for nine years now, I think eight and a half. I should, I should do the math. And either the first at least five years, we were like, we don’t well, specifically me, I was like, I don’t want kids, let’s just live our life. But you know, working in shelters, and just seeing the heartbreak. Really. And then, you know, having a kid when I was in Malawi, he was 12. And I was 24 at the time was like, I’m going home with you, you’re gonna adopt me. You know, I think, you know, if you are a believer, this is kind of God’s call for me. He saved my life by going to Malawi, and then he really helped cultivate my heart for having children. And in 2018, I remember I was sitting in a shelter. And I heard a mom who, you know, had some mental health issues, say her five year old was too broken to be loved. And I was a fundraiser. So I wasn’t really involved in the process. But I remember just breaking down and being so sad for that five year old and beat every single child, and I mean parent to deserves to be loved. And I went home, and you know, foster care. And adoption has been a story in my husband’s side of the family. He has two adopted brothers. And I went home to him. And I was like, hey, guess what we’re doing? We’re gonna be some foster parents. And he was like, that just came out of left field. What like, Who are you is, are you my wife. And I, he was like, if you do the homework, I will go on this journey with you. So we decided to go through the county. And it took us about nine months, six to nine months to do all the training, you have to do a number of trainings. And, you know, he’s broke my heart when you saw the, the movies or the show, like they had a number of videos of children who were like, Yeah, we were fostered. But every time the parents went on vacation, they would leave us home. We weren’t allowed to go with them. And you know, as this process, we wanted to really take in a child and love them and give them the experiences that they deserved. And we became certified in March of 2020. When everything shut down, we literally got the notice like two days before everything shut down. And our social worker was like, there’s no kids in the system. And whether that’s because they were all fostered out. There’s about 3000 children at any given day in the foster care system in Orange County. So or they weren’t being identified because they weren’t in school or after school activities. And that’s where a lot of kids get identified. So we were just kind of sitting with a certification at home, trying to figure out what to do, and praying about it. And because you wanted a baby, and I get a call about a month later from my uncle, who was like, hey, a family member had her child taken away. And and he had seen that I had posted it on Facebook that I was a foster care parent. And so about in May of 2020, may 21 2020 is when we met our son, I will never forget it. He was so happy. We had to meet him in mass until we gotten to the car. We couldn’t kiss him like in front of the social workers. We had to drive down to San Diego. And we picked him up and he’s been in our family ever since. So we officially adopted him on my birthday two years ago. So I got engaged on my birthday and adopted a child on my birthday. No, I tell my husband adoption was a better gift. But don’t tell him that. Wow, tough crowd. You’re kidding. I’m just kidding. But they’re wonderful guests.
**Michael Hingson ** 54:08
Where is he anyway? Go ahead.
**Haley Cooper ** 54:10
He’s listening. He’s rolling in the other room. And so yeah, I was so happy that we were able to and it was funny because we hadn’t gotten any calls. And the day that I got him that next week, the next five days, I got a call each day saying hey, we have because we are emergency parents too. So we were we said like if there’s someone who’s just bored, we will take them out of the hospital like fresh baby. And you know, the challenge is that is you don’t know what’s going on. You don’t know if they were on drugs, whatever. I literally got a call every single day that week, asking if we would take like a sibling pair or because we always said we would take somebody in Paris to so I had to put our foster care on pause because now I have three kids and it’s funny last week actually got a call from our new social worker and I was like I’m not ready to open that door yet. I don’t think it’s closed. I think we probably will in the future. But yeah, it was. It’s a really beautiful journey. And I’m so glad that he entered our life first and really feels like he’s, I mean, he’s my son. He’s only called me mom. And every time I pick him up from school, and he runs with a big smile, saying, Mommy, I just don’t take it for granted. And I’m just so grateful that I have the privilege of being his mom. But
**Michael Hingson ** 55:24
the real burning question is, what about that now? 24 year old from Malawi? Is he going to come and knock at your door and say, hi, mom.
**Haley Cooper ** 55:33
I don’t know. His name is frm. And he was our first client in Malawi. And he was he was 16 Or no, how old was he? I think he was 12. But he had the body of like an eight year old, because he’s so malnourished. Yeah. And he walked into her office, and he pointed me out. And he said, and then we followed up with him a couple months later, and he was happy and healthy. And yeah, I always remember that him telling me he wanted me to adopt him. And I was like, I’m just a child myself.
**Michael Hingson ** 56:07
Do you ever hear from him seriously? Or any more I hear about
**Haley Cooper ** 56:10
him? No, I haven’t. But I
**Michael Hingson ** 56:14
bet he’ll never forget you. Because of all the things that you did. I’ve had as a as a student teacher, I’ve had students who I taught, and years later, and I never recognized her voice. It’s changed so much. But they come up and say, Hey, Mr. Ensign, do you remember me, and this is a deep voice guy, you know when it is cool, but it’s always nice to know that you make a difference. But you’re not making the difference just to satisfy your own ego, you’re doing it because you want to, to do good things. And it’s always neat when you when you get to see the benefits of all that.
**Haley Cooper ** 56:53
Well, and I think honestly, my life was changed more than maybe i i changed other people’s lives unintentionally. So I think other people impacted me just as much.
**Michael Hingson ** 57:05
Yeah, well, and that says it should be you, you get the chance to have other kinds of experiences and so on. And that’s how we learn.
**Haley Cooper ** 57:16
Yes, I definitely agree with that.
**Michael Hingson ** 57:20
So what kind of advice would you give to young, aspiring fundraisers today that want to make a difference and are starting out just thinking they’re gonna conquer the world?
**Haley Cooper ** 57:31
I love this question. And I get asked it all the time
**Michael Hingson ** 57:33
I bet you do.
**Haley Cooper ** 57:37
Build a network and get a mentor. So I would say mentorship. First, when I first got into fundraising AFP, at least our local chapter offers a mentorship program. So I joined I mean, I’m one of those people if I joined something, I go all in. So I joined AFP. And I did their mentorship program, and out of that place, and now an organization that I’m a Board Chair of I just over the years, I’ve been able to build a network. So those relationships have helped me find clients now. But also, they’re just people that help you navigate the ups and downs and help you brainstorm ideas. So mentorship, or coaching in a network of people that you can rely on. One
**Michael Hingson ** 58:19
of the things that I have always done, and I always encourage people to do especially, but not only when they’re starting out a new job, but even on the job is picture yourself as a student first, especially when you’re starting out. You can be a student for a year. And you can, as you pointed out earlier, ask lots of questions. And people mostly love to relate to people, where they’re asked questions, and they can convey knowledge, and help guide people, people love to do that. But I think that playing if you will, the student card for your first year on a new job is a reasonable thing to do. But I also think that even the most experienced person, other people are going to come along with experiences and different perspectives that are just as relevant and may show you something that you didn’t even think of. And so we should always be interested in learning and never think that we know it all.
**Haley Cooper ** 59:23
Anything sometimes you know, when you’re like focusing on something so hard, like you need that outside perspective to take you out of the bubble and help you give that new perspective. And honestly, if you ask questions to people, like you said, people are like, I have people who don’t, they’re busy. They don’t need to meet with me, but they do and I think that’s the important part is if you’re going to take time with either a mentor or a network of people. I mean obviously relationships are first and you want to make it authentic, but make it intentional. Like if you have quiet come with questions to your mentor come with goals that you Want to work on make it intentional. So it’s a beneficial time for both you and the mentor.
**Michael Hingson ** 1:00:06
And that’s the real operative part about it. It’s for both of you. And make no mistake, your mentor will be learning along the way as well. If they’re any good at all. Yeah, I
**Haley Cooper ** 1:00:19
would agree with that.
**Michael Hingson ** 1:00:21
I love to try to make people laugh. I know when I go through airports, I always try to make the TSA people laugh, because they have such a thankless job. But even today, on the phone, I had to call someone, and then ask a question. And when they when they answered, they, of course, didn’t know me. They didn’t know who I was. But the first thing they said is, so how can I help you? And I said, Well, I’m looking for a million dollars, can you just shoot that right out? And that was the whole point is that they laughed. And you know, we kind of went from there. And I really think that we need to respect people more. People always ask me how much I will charge to, to give a speech. And I don’t want to abuse anyone too much. But I always love to tell people. Well, in 2016, Hillary Clinton got $250,000 for speaking to Goldman Sachs. And I think I’m worth as least as much as she is. Nobody’s taking me seriously with that. Yeah, nobody said no problem. We can give you that. Very disappointing, you know?
**Haley Cooper ** 1:01:23
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Humor is an important part and treat treating people with respect. I always, you know, my big thing is like, if you’re a minute grocery store, and it’s taking a long time, you go to the cashier, you’re next and they always apologize. And I’m like, hey, it’s fine. Like, not I tried to go with Yeah, Grace, instead of being like, I’ve been waiting here for 10 minutes, you can just figure it out. Because you know, they’re getting that all day by other people’s have that one kind interaction? You never know what that’ll do for their day? No.
**Michael Hingson ** 1:01:57
And it doesn’t, and you don’t need to know, sometimes you will find out and and always will be a positive thing. But you don’t need to know, it’s still important to do it.
**Haley Cooper ** 1:02:07
**Michael Hingson ** 1:02:09
Well tell me if people want to reach out to you and learn more about what you do. Maybe explore using your services and so on. How do they do that?
**Haley Cooper ** 1:02:18
So I’m pretty active on LinkedIn. It’s Haley Cooper CFRE. And Haley is spelled H a l e y. And then Cooper’s C o o p e r, that’s my very name. And also the savvy fundraiser.com. My business is the savvy fundraiser. So mostly on LinkedIn is probably where I hang out. And you can always connect with me DM me, and I would love to chat. Well,
**Michael Hingson ** 1:02:45
that is how we connected and I’m so glad that we did. I really appreciate you coming on and being with this and spending an hour chatting about all this, we’ll have to do more of it. When are you going to write a book about fundraising and all the things that you do?
**Haley Cooper ** 1:03:00
You know, maybe in a couple years when my kids are older, but someone did tell me that that is on my growth trajectory is to write a book. So are you going to?
**Michael Hingson ** 1:03:10
Well, I believe everyone has stories to tell. And even if you need help writing it, it’s worth doing. So I hope that that you will do it. That’ll be fun that you’ll have to come back and tell us all about it.
**Haley Cooper ** 1:03:25
That sounds great.
**Michael Hingson ** 1:03:26
And we’ll let you know when live like a guide dog comes out.
**Haley Cooper ** 1:03:30
Well, thank you so much, Michael, you’ve been such a gift to me, and I’ve really enjoyed talking to you.
**Michael Hingson ** 1:03:36
Well, let’s stay in touch. And I hope that all of you listening out there will stay in touch as well. We really appreciate you listening. Hayley and I both do. We’d love to hear from you. You know how to reach her and you can reach me as well. You can email me Michaelhi at accesibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And hingson is h i n g s o n. Love to hear your thoughts love to hear what you thought about our episode today. Hopefully it was positive and that you learned something and took something away from it. Wherever you are, and however you’re listening, please give us a five star rating. We really appreciate your ratings and your comments. And of course, Haley, for you. And for any of you out there who are so inclined if you know anyone else who want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know we’d love to hear about more people. We’re always looking to meet people. And my belief is everyone has a story to tell. So come and tell your stories with us. But again, Haley for you. I really appreciate you being with us today. And hopefully we can do this again. So I just want to thank you again for being here.
**Haley Cooper ** 1:04:47
**Michael Hingson ** 1:04:51
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit
. AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.