Episode 91 – Unstoppable Health Equity and Thought Leader with Sylvia Bartley
Our guest this time is Sylvia Bartley. She grew up in England and, after college, entered a career in clinical research. Along the way she joined Medtronic where she held positions in sales and marketing. Later she became interested in deep brain stimulation which lead her to combine past clinical experiences with her sales and marketing knowledge.
You will get to hear Sylvia tell her story including how she moved through several jobs to a place where, as she will tell us, she transitioned more to a social orientation working to help different minority groups and, in fact, all of us to benefit from the medical advances she helped to bring about and introduce socially to the world.
Sylvia left Medtronic earlier this year. She will tell us of her plans and desires. I promise that Sylvia’s time with us is inspiring and well worth your hearing. You can even visit her website where you can hear her own podcast. Enjoy Silvia and be inspired.
About the Guest:
Sylvia Bartley is a health equity thought leader and influencer widely recognized as a neuroscientist, an advocate, and champion of social change, dedicated to advancing health equity through addressing barriers to care for minoritized communities and by addressing the social determinants of health. Sylvia’s work is guided by a greater spiritual purpose rooted in mindfulness and intentionality.
She has dedicated most of her professional career to creating opportunities for individuals living with chronic diseases to receive access to medical technologies. For the last 20 years, Sylvia has worked for Medtronic, the world’s leading healthcare technology company, where she has held roles in sales, marketing, physician education, and philanthropy. During this time, Sylvia has led global teams to disseminate best surgical practices, advanced techniques, and products to treat Parkinson’s Disease and other movement disorders. Most recently, Sylvia helped Medtronic develop an enterprise-wide health equity strategy aligned with customer interests, challenging disease states, and patient needs.
As part of this work, Sylvia engages healthcare leaders, patients, and other stakeholders to uncover and address barriers patients face in receiving high-quality treatment for chronic illnesses. Her commitment to this effort promises to help transform how minoritized communities work with their healthcare providers to manage their chronic conditions.
Her dedication to reducing healthcare disparities extends to her civic engagement. She provides minoritized communities with information and resources to help them make informed choices about critical conditions linked with social determinants of health (SDOH), including education, housing, economic stability, and environmental factors. She employs multiple platforms to reach and support communities, including board memberships with the African American Leadership Forum, the Association of Black Foundation Executives, and The Johnson Stem Activity Centre. She is also an advisory member for the Wallace H. Coulter Department of Biomedical Engineering for Georgia Tech and Emory University and a Regent for Augsburg University in MN.
Sylvia took her work to a new platform when she published her first book, “Turning the Tide: Neuroscience, Spirituality, and My Path Toward Emotional Health,” which outlines the links between our brains and our souls while inspiring readers to change the world with that knowledge.
During her spare time, Sylvia hosts a long-standing weekly community public affairs radio show and podcast, The More We Know Community Show. She interviews change-makers who level the playing field for all minorities by breaking barriers in their careers, lives, and communities.
Sylvia has been recognized with numerous awards, including the Top 100 Most Influential and Powerful Black Briton awards, in 2022, 2021, 2020, and 2019. In 2021, she was awarded the Medtronic HR Stewardship Award and earned recognition for her service and commitment to the Twin Cities in 2020 with the African American Leadership Forum Community Award. Women in Business Award in 2017, and Diversity in Business Awards in 2013 from Minneapolis/St. Paul Business Journal. Sylvia is also a 2014 Bush Fellow and AARP/Pollen’s 50 over 50 award recipient.
Sylvia earned a Ph.D. in Neurophysiology from St. Barts and The Royal London School of Medicine and Dentistry and holds a bachelor’s degree in Pharmacology from the University of London.
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson 01:21
Hi, everyone, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Glad to see you wherever you happen to be. I am your host, Mike Hingson. And our guest today is Sylvia Bartley, who is a thought leader or neuroscientist. And I’m not going to tell you any more than that, because we’re going to make her tell you her whole story. Sylvia, welcome to unstoppable mindset.
Sylvia Bartley 01:41
Thank you, Michael, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today.
Michael Hingson 01:45
Well, I was reading your bio. And there is there is a lot there. I know you’ve done a lot in dealing with diversity and equity and so on. And we’ll talk about inclusion and you are a neuroscientist, which is fascinating in of itself. But why don’t we start Tell me a little bit about you maybe growing up just how you started and how you got kind of where you are?
Sylvia Bartley 02:06
Yeah, happy to. So where do I start? I think I grew up in the UK, born and bred. And born to two Caribbean parents, my parents are from St. Lucia and Jamaica. And they came to England in the 50s because of the promise of jobs and great access and opportunities. And so they came across they met and they had four children. And growing up in the UK, it was it was a fairly good experience. I won’t say the experience racism, or any such thing directly. I was in a predominantly white neighborhood, I went to a very good Catholic school, where I received an excellent education. And I went on to work in the Royal London School of Medicine and Dentistry, where I became a research technician. And I worked there for 13 years. And during my tenure there, I did lots of research on the somatosensory cortex, looking at brain plasticity, and long term potentiation and memory and learning. And so this was a very new field. For me, this was not something I aspire to do. When I was growing up in school, I was very intrigued and very engaged in that particular area in neurophysiology, and I was surrounded by these phenomenal academics and teachers, that really taught me a lot. And during that time, that’s when I got my first degree in applied biology specializing in psychopharmacology and my second degree, my PhD in neurophysiology. And again, my work was on the somatosensory cortex, looking at brain plasticity, in response to our experience, our innocuous experience. And I was very intrigued by that work. I’m very intrigued by the the kind of deep, intrinsic pneus of the brain and the function of the brain and obviously, how it really controls everything that we do. But I knew after I did my PhD that I wanted to do some more work that was more clinical facing. And so I left the academic environment and I entered into the medical device field, where I started off in cells, selling wires and stents, interventional cardiology, in the heart of London to the big cardiac centers. And then I quickly transitioned into Medtronic, the large the largest standalone medical device company in the world, and a solid themselves of intrathecal baclofen for B, and then quickly moved to a Furby called Deep Brain Stimulation. And there I was in heaven because that really married the work I did in kind of basic clinical science and, and medicine to the clinical application. And with this therapy And it was approved to be used for patients with Parkinson’s disease dystonia, a central tremor. Now, it’s for epilepsy OCD. And there’s lots of research not approved yet in clinical depression, and other areas. So very taken up. And my work was literally to go to different hospitals that did deep brain stimulation, and train the neurosurgeons and the neurosurgical teams, how to do the DBS procedure, in particular, how to use the advanced technologies that Medtronic brought to this particular Furby. So it was a really fantastic job, it took me too many hours on it, you know, the fabulous surgeons are great minds out there, doing the work. And in addition to that, I met loads of patients and their families, particularly patients living with Parkinson’s disease, and when he got to understand their pathway and their experience, and how this therapy really helped to alleviate their symptoms, so it could improve their quality of lives. And that role took me across the United Kingdom. And then, you know, it expanded to Western Europe. So every day, I’ll get up and I’ll get on a plane to a different country, a different hospital, a different neurosurgical team and spend the best part of my days in a while during a DBS procedure, working with the neurosurgeon and their teams to make sure we disseminate those best procedural practices using the technology. And one of the things I loved about that particular role is I could use the electrophysiological experience that I had in a medical school, doing the single cell recordings in vitro, and do that literally on patients with Parkinson’s disease, to identify the brain structures in order for for the physician to locate the lead in an accurate location.
Michael Hingson 06:54
Well, tell me, tell me a little bit more, if you would about deep brain stimulation, what is it? What what do you do? And just kind of help us understand a little bit more about that, if you would?
Sylvia Bartley 07:05
Yeah, sure. So deep brain stimulation is actually a therapy where you apply an a very fine electrode into deep structures of the brain, and the structures that you implant the electrode, they have to be approved structures. So things under the FDA or the to have approval, and you apply chronic stimulation by a an implantable pulse generator that’s implanted under the skin, in in the clavicle area. And it’s connected by these electrodes and extension cord into that deep structure of the brain. So it’s an internal system, it’s a medical device that is in is implanted into the patient, and it stays in there. And basically, you control the device and the amount of current that you apply through the electrodes, through the battery through telemetry. And it’s been around now for over 35 years. It’s proven, particularly in the area of parkinson disease, as I mentioned earlier, it’s using other therapy areas, but it really does alleviate the symptoms of these movement disorders. And these movement disorders, they’re kind of de neurodegenerative, ie they get worse over time, primarily, not everybody, but most people. So you have the ability to adjust the settings remotely via to military to make sure you’re applying the right stimulation. And it’s really important that the lead is placed accurately. And that the stimulation is only stimulating that area, because it’s surrounded by these other complicated structures. And if you stimulate those areas, you can get side effects that are not, you know, that makes it very uncomfortable and, you know, almost sometimes unbearable. So you’ve got to be precise in your location, and in your stimulation of parameters, and it’s tailored to the patient. Now, this isn’t suitable for every patient, there is a selection criteria, the neurologist, the movement disorder, numerologist plays the role in selecting the patients making sure they meet the selection criteria. And they also play the important role of managing the parameters and the stimulation parameters after the lead is implanted. So you’re really kind of connected to this device for the rest of your life. It does improve the quality of your life, it’s in the right area of the brain and the stimulation parameters are accurate, and you’re a right fit for this particular therapy. And it’s done all over the world in in many different countries literally, it’s probably got approvals in in most countries. Now what I will say is the regulatory approvals are different in every country. So not every condition is approved. But typically, Parkinson disease dystonia is approved throughout the world.
Michael Hingson 09:59
You If so, when the electrodes and the devices is implanted, and you begin to use it, and I appreciate that, you need to clearly know what you’re doing. And you need to be very careful. Other than let’s take Parkinson’s as an example where you are, the visible signs are that you’re, you’re changing the amount of improper movements or unwanted movements and so on. What is the patient feel?
Sylvia Bartley 10:31
Well, that’s a great question. So clearly, before they come to us, they’ve reached a certain point in their pathway, where the medication is not working well for them, they probably get an imbalance of complications or side effects as opposed to clinical benefits. So it comes to a point in their journey, depending on how far the condition advances, that there is a surgical intervention. And there’s many other surgical intervention like vagal nerve stimulation, but deep brain stimulation is one of them. And at the early stages, it was almost like the the very end like you have to be very advanced. But with all the technology, now it can be done kind of earlier in the pathway, but the patients are kind of in a in a bad way, when they get to the point of having deep brain stimulation. And so during the surgery, typically, not always, typically, because the procedure is done in so many different ways. But typically, the patient is awake, there are local anesthesia, Ebenezer daily, they’re awake, and they’re awake, because when you put the lead in the brain, during the procedure, then you ologists comes in and does what they call physiological testing. So they can apply stimulation during the surgery to make sure that it’s really doing what it’s supposed to do alleviate the symptoms, and not without any side effects. So they do a battery or test and application of different stimulation parameters. And the patient can respond directly to say, Well, yeah, you know, you can see if the tremors stop in or if the dystonia is, is been averted, but also the patient can tell you how they’re feeling.
Michael Hingson 12:14
So they can say things like, and I don’t know that you’re anywhere near the part of the brain that does that. But you can say things like, I’m hearing a high pitched tone, or I’m hearing a noise or I’m hearing music, which, as I said, may not be anywhere near where you’re talking about. But the point is, and I’ve heard about that before and read about it before, where many times during operations involving the brain, the neurologists would be asking a patient exactly what they sense because, in part, they’re mapping different parts of the brain, but they want to make sure that, that they’re either getting the results that they want, or they discover something new, which is always helpful.
Sylvia Bartley 12:52
Yeah, exactly. And they do map the brain. And that’s why electrophysiological recordings is a good way of doing it. And now we have advanced technologies, there’s multiple electrodes that can apply stimulation in different ways. So it really does advance the way in which we do the procedure. But you’re absolutely right, we do them up and they make sure they don’t get any side effects. For example, your vision, you’re near the areas in the brain that is related to your optic nerve, and you want to make sure that they’re not getting any double vision or their eyes are not moving towards their nose and sweating is another one. And you know, dystonia putting up the side of the mouth, it is another one as well. So these are very serious side effects that can impact their quality of life. So the goal is to improve it. So making sure that we get the best optimal outcomes. And that’s why it’s typically done away. But there’s now lots of advancements in medical technology and there’s lots of research and people looking into doing the procedure asleep. Because it is uncomfortable for the patient. They’ve got a stereotactic frame on their head, it looks like age, they’ve got four pins in their head, you know, someone’s drilling a 14 millimeter burr hole in their scar while they’re awake. So you know, I go to the dentist and having my teeth drilled under local anesthesia is very uncomfortable. So I can’t imagine what it feels like when you’re in your worst state because the patient is not on medication, because we want them to have the symptoms of Parkinson’s. So when we apply this stimulation, and look at me saying we I am so used to saying I want to say they apply this stimulation, you want to see that it’s been alleviated. So the patient is not very, not feeling very well anyway, and then they have to go through this procedure, which can last anything from two hours if it’s done asleep and experience hand to seven, eight hours. And so it’s a long time for the patient. So you know the but the patient is so relieved, grateful and just kind of elated. When the symptoms are alleviated, and their quality of life has been improved, so if I was to like dystonic patients as well, where they have very severe distortion as muscle contractions, and they’re, they’re in the most kind of painful positions. And it’s almost like a miracle, I used to call it the miracle cure, even though it doesn’t cure the illness, but it really does alleviate those horrific symptoms that really does impair their quality of life.
Michael Hingson 15:32
Does it have does it have an effect on longevity? If you’re using deep brain stimulation? And if it’s working, does it? I know, it’s not a cure? But does it have any effect on the person’s longevity?
Sylvia Bartley 15:46
To be honest, I’m not sure about the return, if there’s any recent findings about this, but to my knowledge, no, it doesn’t stop or slow down the progression of the condition, alleviates the symptoms. And I haven’t looked recently into any research to see if that is different. But you know, for a very long time, there was no evidence to support that it slows it down just improves the quality of life by alleviating the symptoms.
Michael Hingson 16:13
Yeah, so it’s dealing with the symptoms, and certainly not the cause. When the surgery is is occurring, or afterward, I’m assuming may be incorrectly but having gone through one just as part of a test many years ago, I assume that there are differences that show up when the brain is stimulated, that show up on an EEG. What do you mean? Well, so if I’m watching, if I’m watching on an electroencephalograph and watching a person’s brain patterns, and so on, are there changes when the brain is being stimulated? Can you tell anything from that or is it strictly by watching the patient and their symptoms disappearing or or going away to a great degree?
Sylvia Bartley 16:58
Yeah, so primarily, it’s watching the symptoms disappear by but then secondarily, there are new technologies, where we look at local field potentials. And the electrode is connected to an implantable pulse generator that has the ability to sense and monitor brainwaves during the chronic stimulation. And again, this is called local field potentials and sensing. And the idea there is, hopefully to identify when you can stimulate as opposed to applying chronic stimulation to do many things, one, if you can anticipate or identify a marker in the brain. And if you stimulate to reduce that marker, you can reduce the symptoms. And so it’s almost like a closed loop, closed loop system. And that will also have an impact on the battery life. Because one of the challenges with deep brain stimulation is you’ve got to, obviously, it’s driven by battery is an implantable pulse generator, we want to make it as small and as powerful as possible to to have clinical effect. And so battery life and longevity is something that’s constantly being looked at. And this is a way of reducing the battery, we have rechargeables now, but still, after a period of time, like nine or 10 years, you still have to replace implantable pulse generator, because the battery, you know, life needs to be replenished or changed in one of the not not replenished. But you need to change the battery, because there’s no guarantee that it can recharge at the rate that it could before.
Michael Hingson 18:40
So I asked, I asked a question only basically because being a physics guy, I love quantitative things as opposed to qualitative things. And that’s why I was asking if there are ways to see differences in in brain patterns and so on. That may be a totally irrelevant question. But that’s why I asked the question.
Sylvia Bartley 18:57
Yeah, no, no, not at all. Like I said, sensing is a thing now that they are monitoring and looking for biomarkers and looking at brain activities. While it’s in the patient, and that’s very advanced, because that hasn’t been done before. So yeah,
Michael Hingson 19:13
yeah, it’s definitely cutting edge. I’d use that term. It’s bleeding edge technology. Yeah, absolutely. In a lot of ways.
Sylvia Bartley 19:21
Absolutely. But you know, I’ve been out of DBS now for, let’s say, six years. So I may not be as common as I used to be. But that’s that’s the basis and the premise of it.
Michael Hingson 19:32
Well, people have called you a unicorn. What do you think about that and why? I had to ask.
Sylvia Bartley 19:39
And I love that question. And I think they call Well, what they tell me I’m a unicorn is that I have this very diverse background. There’s not many people like me, that can talk about Deep Brain Stimulation at the level that I do and have that technical experience and reputation that I did globally to be there. DBS expert. And then secondly, you know, I am this corporate person that worked a lot in marketing and lived in three different countries, very culturally fluid and diverse, and known as a good leader of people, and definitely, with some strong business acumen, but then I think they call me a unicorn, because I’m very much engaged in community, particularly the black community. And as you know, there are many disparities in the black communities or communities of color. And I’m kind of driven, it’s just within me to really work and use the skills and connections that I have to help create conditions that everybody thrives in communities, no matter who they are, the conditions they were born into, and their circumstances. And I really live that out, I really work hard in communities voluntarily, to really advance equity, whether it’s education, health, or economic, economic wealth. And I do that very seriously. And I think that’s really given me a reputation of being a community leader, particularly in Minnesota in the Twin Cities where I live for nine years. I love Minnesota, I love the community. And I really love working in the Twin Cities community to advance equity, because the Twin Cities has one of the largest disparities when it comes to all of those social determinants of health. And for many years, it was ranked the second worst state in the country, for African Americans to live based on the disparities in those social determinants of health. So there is a knowledge and an awareness and a propensity and willingness of many people from diverse backgrounds, to come together to try and solve that, to make Minnesota a great place for everybody to live, work and play. And so really got engaged in that in that arena. And I think that’s what really got me my reputation of being not just a corporate leader, but community lead and very passionate about doing that work. And I’ve also heard that people find it difficult to do both my job was very demanding, it was a global job. I literally traveled globally, even when I was doing philanthropy, but, but when I came back home, just getting seriously engaged in a community and doing it at a serious level, and being very impactful on it. And that’s why I think people call me a unicorn, because I have this passion for community, particularly advancing the minoritized communities together with, you know, being a corporate leader and doing that well. And that’s my understanding why people call me a unicorn. But also I think, I don’t fit into a box, I, when you look at my resume, you say, well, there’s a lot on there, I’ve done a lot, but they’re all very different. You know, I’ve got this passion for emotional Alpha got this passion for neuroscience, I got a passion for community, I’ve got a passion for philanthropy. I’ve done marketing and, and strategy and operations. And so you know, I like to blend all of those together, and do the work to advance equity, particularly, in particular health equity. But that is no cookie cutter cookie cutter role, you know, and so that’s why I think I’m very kind of unique and different in that way. Well, it’s
Michael Hingson 23:19
interesting, you clearly started out with a very technical background. And you have evolved in a sense, if you will, from that, or you have allowed yourself to diversify and to go into other areas, as you said, into marketing and such as that, how did that come about? And you because you, you clearly had carved out a great niche in a lot of specific technical ways. And you clearly have a great technical knowledge. And I’m a great fan of people who can take knowledge from one arena, and and use the skills that you learn from that elsewhere. Like, from being very technical. My master’s degree is in physics. And I started out doing scientific things and then, through circumstances went into sales. So I appreciate where you’re coming from. But how did you make that transition? Or how did you add that to what you do maybe is a better way to put it?
Sylvia Bartley 24:19
Yeah, I think I just want to go to path and purpose. I think it was just my path. And I was open unconsciously in following my path because I really did not have like a five or 10 year career goal, to say this is my trajectory. But what I did have was passion and love for certain things. And I love neurophysiology. I love working with physicians. I love being in a clinical setting. And I love working in a business environment as well. And I love teaching. When I was on the in the academic institution. I did a lot of teaching. The roles I did initially in a medical device industry was teaching as they call it a sales rep role, but when you’re working with therapies, in medical device, you’re teaching people a lot about the firm a lot about your devices, the science behind your devices, and you’re bringing people together, you’re, you’re holding meetings. And in order to be an expert, you’re constantly learning. And then you’re also teaching. And so what I was doing the kind of technical role, I was also very strategic in that, you know, just imagine I was traveling around, let’s just say, Western Europe at this point, different countries, and coming across different challenges in a procedure, and noticing, you know, talking to my colleagues that they had the same challenge, and we will problem solve together. And then every day, there’s a new challenge, right? So every day, we went to a different procedure, every day, we learned something new because there was a new challenge or something appeared that didn’t happen before. And so, in my mind, I wanted to go from a one on one teaching and improvement to how can I do this more strategically? So really thinking across Western Europe to say, how can we teach all these other folks that are also a specialist in these areas, about what we’re learning and how to mitigate those challenges that we’re having. So that transition for me having to been very technical, with great experience to being a leader of other technical people, where I put together trainings and programs for both staff that were experts, and also physicians, who were doing deep brain stimulation. So we developed a program in Western Europe that’s still alive and well today and scaled significantly with young neurosurgeons on how to do the DBS procedure. And so working with physicians from across Western Europe to develop this curriculum, and execute it really well, that it’s, again, serving and and really helping to train hundreds of neurosurgeons. You know, it just went from the doing the technical to the teaching, externally and internally, and then also being very strategic, to say, how can we work to improve all of these challenges that we’re seeing, and it came, you know, with me moving to Switzerland, to be the procedure solutions, Senior Product Manager for Western Europe, where I really took on this role, and it was very much more strategic. And that’s how I got into marketing. I never did an MBA, you know, I did some really great trainings with the Wharton School marketing fundamentals, etc. But I never did a dedicated like two year MBA, but I just learned through experience in and I and re exposure, great leaders to learn from, and it just evolved from there
Michael Hingson 27:45
in sales. What what specifically were you selling? What product
Sylvia Bartley 27:51
sells, so variety of product wise instance? So interventional interventional cardiology, stent, some wires, and that was that was probably the hardest sell, because it’s a stent and a wire and there was many companies out there, are you very competitive? So you know, what differentiates yours from another? So I really cut my teeth on sales, selling that product in the Highlander that was highly competitive.
Michael Hingson 28:18
Did you did you? Did you ever have a situation where you were selling and working with a customer? And and I don’t know whether this applies to you and what you sold? But did you ever have a situation where you discovered that your product might not be the best product for them? Or would that come up with what you were selling?
Sylvia Bartley 28:40
Um, I gotta say no, because what we what we were selling? No. So if I think about the whys instead, no, because it’s a oneness den and anybody that needed to have that procedure, they needed one guy. Now, clearly, there were differences in sizes, and the type of stent, but our stents were very applicable to most situations as as long as we had the appropriate sizes. This would work in terms of intrathecal, baclofen and kind of capital equipment for deep brain stimulation that was very specific to the customer and their needs. And I will, I will say this on a podcast, I work for the best medical device company in the world, of course. And I still stand by that I believe our products are the best in the business, particularly when it comes to deep brain stimulation. We founded this Virpi alongside Professor Bennett bead in Grenoble, in France. In the 1980s. We were kind of the founders of this Philippian and a product we had a monopoly, but over 25 years, I’m not saying that makes us the best but we got the great experience the know how new technology, and I want to correct myself I keep saying we I no longer work for this company, but I’ve been there for 20 years. So get out of that same so I just want to be very clear to the audience. This is my past role, and I’m not longer work with with them. But again, it was a long time. And I did DBS for about 15 years. So it’s very near and dear to my heart. But I do believe they have the best product still today, and are doing exceptionally well, alleviating those symptoms for those particular therapy.
Michael Hingson 30:15
You raise a good point, though, but habits are sometimes not easy to break. It’s been 21 years since I worked well, 20 years since I worked for Quantum. And I still say we so it’s okay. Thank you, we understand. And I asked the question, because we had products that I sold, that were similar to products from other companies. But there were differences. And sometimes our products might not meet a customer’s need. Whereas other products had differences that made them a better fit. And I was just curious to see if you really found that and it sounds like you didn’t really have that kind of an issue. And so you had to sell in part based on other things like the reputation of the company, the quality of the company, and other things like that, which, which is perfectly reasonable and makes perfect sense.
Sylvia Bartley 31:09
Yeah, I mean, there’s also the kind of referral side of this. And that’s where that’s where the work is. And the decisions almost have been done, where you have to identify the right patient for the therapy. And then once that is done, and the patient is selected, then it’s which device, you know. And at that point, our devices is suitable for all patients that knee deep brain stimulation.
Michael Hingson 31:31
Yeah. So you’re, you’re going at it in a different way, you need to find the people who had fits in that makes perfect sense. Well, what really caused you to have that? Well, let me ask you something else. First, I, well, I’ll ask this, I started and I’ll finish it, what would cause you to have the drive and the passion that you have now for more of a social kind of connection and moving into more dealing with social issues, as it were?
Sylvia Bartley 32:00
Well, you know, as a well, let me put it this way. When I was working, doing all of this therapy, traveling the world
Sylvia Bartley 32:12
1000s of DBS procedures, and working with lots of people, I didn’t come across many people of color that were receiving these therapies, for whatever reason, and it kind of strikes me as odd. Because it, it shouldn’t be a phobia for the privilege, it should be a phobia for everybody. And, you know, United States insurance, and access has a lot to do with that, and outside the United States. You know, I still didn’t see it. So anybody, actually, I think I probably saw two black people receiving this burpee. So I’ve always been mindful of things like that. And obviously, as a black person, I’m very mindful and aware of disparities and discrimination. And I’ve always had a heart to address discrimination, or not discrimination, equity, as I mentioned earlier on in a discussion. So I’ve always looked at the world through that lens, in everything that I do. And I always try and do whatever I can, to to help or advance equity. It’s just something that will never leave me. And so you know, even at the tender age of 27, when I was a single parent of two children, I got engaged in community, I became the Chair of a large nonprofit that provided subsidized childcare for lone parents. And I did that because there was discrimination in their practices against people of color. And I really wanted to help advance that work by helping to develop policies and programs and a culture, you know, was for everybody. And I worked with the NHS, the non executive team voluntarily, I was a lay chair for the independent review panel, looking at cases where people complained against the NHS for lots of things, including discrimination. But that wasn’t the only kind of topic. And it’s just work that I continue to do. And when I moved to United States, I just got deeply involved in that as well. So it came to the point after 15 years in in one kind of area of expertise, where I had my foot in both camps of foot in the community, working lots of nonprofits voluntarily to doing the work in a corporation. And really, you know, always wondering how I can marry the two or should I cross over and go deeply into community work. And five years later, here I am, I’ve left the corporation and I’m taking a little bit of a break, but I really want to get back into working for a nonprofit, close to community Either he’s advancing equity, hopefully in health, or around those social determinants of health. So it’s just something that’s been a red thread throughout my career in life. And I really want to double down on it now, at this point in my career, this point in the world where everything is super crazy, and polarize, and really do whatever I can, and leverage my experience, in healthcare, in community in philanthropy, to advance equity for everybody.
Michael Hingson 35:29
So you mentioned NHS and NHS is what
Sylvia Bartley 35:32
I’m sorry, NHS is a national health service in the UK, it’s valuable for data that provides a health service where you pay a nominal amount if you’re working. I forget what the percentage is, but you pay a very tiny amount that comes out of your salary, you don’t even notice it. And everyone has access to health care.
Michael Hingson 35:51
Got it? So when did you leave med tech?
Sylvia Bartley 35:54
I left my tech at the end of June this year to only recent, this recent Yeah. Hi, gosh.
Michael Hingson 36:03
So what are you doing now? Or are you are working for anyone or you just took a break for a little while to recoup and reassess?
Sylvia Bartley 36:11
Yeah, I’ve taken a little bit of a break. It’s amazing how tired I’ve been I you know, I’ve been working really hard globally for the last God knows how many years 3030 plus years. So just welcomed a little bit of a break. Yes, I am looking for other opportunities again, in primarily in a nonprofit space to do the community poster community where wherever I apologize with advancing equity minoritized communities that hopefully, health equity. So I’m looking at doing that. And yeah, we’ll just see what happens. But at the moment, I am volunteering at a fabulous nonprofit organization here in Atlanta, called the Johnson stem activity center. It’s an organization that was founded by Dr. Lonnie Johnson. He’s an inventor of the Super Soaker. And they run some phenomenal programs, robotic programs, computing, computer programs, egaming, coding, virtual reality for students, but particularly for minoritized communities. In this particular center, they give them access to equipment and resources and teams to really get engaged in STEM through these programs. And I just love working. Now unfortunately, I don’t live too far away. I go there during the week, and I work with Dr. Johnson and Linda Moore, who oversee this organization together with other entities, and is really taken aback because it’s a heart of Atlanta, it’s very community driven. And they’re doing some excellent work. And to see the young students, particularly those from minoritized communities, build robots and their eyes light up when they’re talking about STEM, and what they want to be like an astronaut or cybersecurity, you know, it’s just, it’s just amazing. So that takes up a lot of my time together with networking, and, you know, socializing. So, and that’s what I’m doing right now.
Michael Hingson 38:08
So are you in Atlanta or Minneapolis? Now, Minneapolis?
Sylvia Bartley 38:12
I’ve been here two years. Yes. Okay.
Michael Hingson 38:15
So you don’t get to have as many snowball fights in Atlanta, as you did in Minneapolis. St. Paul?
Sylvia Bartley 38:20
Yeah. No. And it was too cold to have snowball fights. Yeah.
Michael Hingson 38:29
Well, you know, it’s, it’s one of those subjects worth exploring? Well, I have to ask this just because I’m, I’m curious and as you know, from looking at me a little bit, dealing a lot with with disabilities, and so on. So with the with the organization that you’re you’re volunteering with, and as they’re creating games and so on, do they do anything to make the things that they do inclusive, accessible, safe for people who happen to be blind or low vision or have other disabilities? Has that been something that they’ve thought about or might be interested in thinking about? Because clearly, if we’re really going to talk about inclusion, that’s an area where we tend to generally as a society missed the mark.
Sylvia Bartley 39:14
Yeah, absolutely. Inclusion, you know, includes people with disabilities. It sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I think we are set up for that. I don’t know we have any students that fall into that category, to be honest, because there’s anything from 5000 to 10,000 students that pass through that center per year, but it’s definitely something I will go back and ask them about, but I know the facilities itself is is accessible for everybody. So
Michael Hingson 39:48
well. Accessibility from a physical standpoint is part of it. Yeah, but but then you’ve got the other issues like documentation and other things for a blind person for example to read but the the reason And I’m bringing up the question is, a lot of times, and I’m not saying in any way that that’s what you’re experiencing, but a lot of times I hear when I talk to people about whether what they do is inclusive. Well, we’ve never had blind students, or we’ve never had a person with this disability or that disability. And the problem is, that’s true. But you know, which comes first the chicken or the egg? Do you need to have the students before you make the inclusion happen? Or do you make the inclusion happen, and then tell people so that they will come because so often, most of us just don’t pay attention to or even think about trying to pay attention to things where there isn’t access, because we’re just working hard to deal with what we can get some inclusion and accessibility out. Oh, so the other things never really get our focus. And it has to start somewhere. And typically, from my experience, it really happens best when somebody starts the process of making sure that there is inclusion, accessiBe that I worked for, that makes products that helped make websites more inclusive and available to persons with disabilities started, because it’s an Israeli company where the law said you got to make websites accessible. And the guys who started it, actually, first work for a company well started a company that made websites. And then two years after they formed the company, Israel came along and said, You got to make our websites accessible. So then they started doing it. And the the population of customers for accessiBe has grown tremendously, because people recognize the value of doing it. And it’s not mostly overly expensive to do. But it really starts better there than waiting for the demand. Because it should be part of the cost of doing business.
Sylvia Bartley 42:03
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you. And JSOC, it’s a it’s a special place. Typically, people contact JSOC. And they say we want to bring our students here or run the programs in the facility. And so that’s typically how kind of that kind of their programming works. You know, the programs are developed based on the partnerships. It is a smaller nonprofit. And we’re trying to, you know, we’re currently going to go into a capital campaign, so we can raise money to have staff, there’s no staff there right now, it is all done by volunteers. And so you know, we really want to build the organization to have staff, so we can do better programming, we can scale and we can do more things that makes us more inclusive. Yeah. So yes, that’s a really good point.
Michael Hingson 42:52
And volunteers are the heart and souls of nonprofits, and often really do shape the mission. And then it’s, some of them become staff, of course, but it’s up to the volunteers and the people to really shape the mission going forward. And then that’s an important thing to do. So I’m with you.
Sylvia Bartley 43:13
Michael Hingson 43:15
So where where is next for you? Do you have any notion yet? Or are you just enjoying what you’re doing, and you’re not yet overly concerned about some sort of way to get paid for what you do?
Sylvia Bartley 43:29
Right now, you know, there’s a couple of irons in the fire was leave it at that, we’ll see what pans out. I’m all about path and purpose and the universe, doing its thing. So we will see what happened there. But in the meantime, I’m continuing to do what I love, which is really getting involved volunteer, and, you know, network and do my podcast to go out to have a podcast. And that gives me more time to focus on that, because I’m purely doing that by myself. And making sure I get good guests and good topics and, you know, really providing information that can help our listeners make good decisions about their lifestyle. will tell us
Michael Hingson 44:08
more about the podcast about podcasts, because obviously we’re on one now. So I’d love to love to learn more.
Sylvia Bartley 44:17
You know, podcasts is a way of getting information out there to to our listeners in a different way. Right? I think people are getting very tired or the traditional media outlets and podcasts is taken off. And my podcast is called the more we know, community show. Conversations cultivating change. And really again, it’s focusing on addressing the social determinants of health by primarily for the black community. And I do that through storytelling, really having great guests that are changemakers leaders, really driving change either through their story of what they do, or you know, working with a nonprofit and also talking about equity and providing infant ation around health equity and what people need to know, in order to make good decisions about their health and their lifestyle. And it’s all about information. And it’s data driven information as well. And my guest often nominal third is, again, changemakers in their own right, and just very inspiring. And so I use this platform to tell them stories to tell their truths, to provide information. It’s also a radio show in Minnesota on camo J, a 9.9 FM every Sunday at 12, noon, central time. So I got to produce this thing on a weekly basis. So that takes a lot as well. So now that I am not working full time, I’ve got time to focus on that and to develop it as well. So yeah, that’s what I’m doing my podcast.
Michael Hingson 45:48
Well, that’s pretty cool. And you’re having fun producing it and learning to be an audio editor and all those things.
Sylvia Bartley 45:54
Well, I have something for me, I’m not going to attempt to do that. But I have to find my guest. And obviously, the content, and I review the edit in and I do the little marketing for it. So it’s quite a lot, as you know, and I do it on a weekly basis. After the knock it out. Sometimes I do replays, but I gotta knock it out. And so I’m looking here to get some sponsorship, hopefully, so I can hire folks to do it, to do it for me, and, you know, do a better job on my social media. I’m not very good at that. It takes a lot of time. And I don’t have the time to do all of that. So
Michael Hingson 46:31
it doesn’t I used to put out a newsletter on a regular basis. And, and don’t anymore just because the time gets away. Time flies, and social media is a great time sponge. So it’s, it’s easy to spend a lot of time doing social media, and there are only so many hours in the day.
Sylvia Bartley 46:49
Exactly, exactly. And there’s so many talented people out there doing social media. I can’t even even if I tried, you know?
Michael Hingson 46:56
Yeah. Yeah, some of us just have different gifts. Who are some of your favorite guests for your podcast?
Sylvia Bartley 47:05
You know, I’ve had so many gays I started doing this in 2015 under a different brand called the black leadership redefined. And primarily based in Minnesota. And so my guess had been anybody from Senator Tina Smith to Chief of Police, Rondo, Redondo to the Attorney General Keith Ellison, to nickimja levy Armstrong, who’s a civil rights activist in the Twin Cities, to all of these phenomenal African American female coaches and leaders and ministers. I’ve had some deep, meaningful, moving conversations with people. But I think the ones that moved me the most are those that are telling their stories that kind of break your heart. And it doesn’t move, make it it breaks your heart, but it moves me because they took their pain. And they transform that to something impactful, that really impacts and change the lives of many. And typically there are people whose spouses or, or siblings or loved ones has been murdered through to sex trafficking or at the hands of the police or at the hands of, obviously criminals. And what they did with that to really start nonprofits and provide refuge and help and support for other people. Those stories really touched me the most, you know,
Michael Hingson 48:33
yeah. You have written a book, or how many books have you written? I’ve just written one, just one so far. So far. That’s enough.
Sylvia Bartley 48:42
That one’s brewing at some point.
Michael Hingson 48:45
Well, Tom, tell me about your book, if you would.
Sylvia Bartley 48:47
Yeah, my book is called turn aside. Using spirituality and my path to emotional health. And the book I wrote, really, because on my interest in science, the brain neurophysiology and spirituality, and emotional health, and recognizing that the areas in the brain that are associated with all fear, those are areas that intersect at some point, or are the same areas. So that got me and then with my experience, working in the field of Parkinson’s and movement disorders, we have all these wonderful experts from around the world and what I learned in their presence and by taking seminars, I recognized that there was a intersectionality between these three, and then I took my own experience, and wondered how I can use this information for the better right to help heal myself, someone living with depression, as well as helping giving back to community. And so I, you know, start the book off by doing a part by biography so the audience could connect with me and understand where I’m coming from, but then going deep into not really deep but going into the side Science, and making that connection, and how we can use that to really help improve our lives or the lives of others. And there’s a lot in there about volunteering and giving back to my community. Because when I think about my living with my depression, at the time, it was pretty bad when I wrote the book. And, you know, I even wrote in a book that I saw it as a gift, because it really does help me to go deep internally, to connect to, you know, my spiritual path to really understand why I’m suffering like this emotionally. What am I supposed to do with it? And, you know, how do I help other people, and it kept me, I was like, getting me grounded. But it really did really get me to ask those deep spiritual questions, which has really helped me to evolve as a person, spiritually, emotionally and physically. And so, you know, the book really centered around that, and how we can use that knowledge, about intersectionality will free to really help other people’s lives as well. And then not to mention talking, talking about depression is something that many people do, particularly those who are very visible and in senior leadership positions. But it was important for me to do so because I want to help normalize it. I want to get to a point where we can talk about depression, and people stop saying that you’re brave, and you’re being vulnerable. And you’re being very courageous, because it, there’s a high percentage of people that have depression, and not many people want to talk about it, because of the stigma, and the shame that unfortunately, is still associated with emotional health and mental wellness. So you know, I’m doing my liberal part to help break that stigma, and to get people to talk about it. Because once you talk about it, and you acknowledge it in my situation, it was a first step towards healing. And I lived with depression, undiagnosed for most of my life, being diagnosed in 2017, when I published my book, was just very cathartic. And it was a big weight off my shoulder because I didn’t have to hide it. I didn’t have to battle it behind closed doors, and for the first time, I got help, and then I could address it in a very mindful, holistic way that really has helped me. And I can proudly say, today, I feel the best I’ve ever felt in my whole entire life, emotionally, physically, and spiritually,
Michael Hingson 52:25
is depression, more of a physical or mental and emotional thing?
Sylvia Bartley 52:31
Well, it is a physiological it can be I mean, depression comes in many forms, and it’s different for everybody. But there’s absolutely a physiological component to some kind of depression with as a chemical imbalance, due to some over activity under activity, or certain areas in our brain, particularly the basal ganglia, which is your kind of seed of emotion. And so, you know, that’s, that’s definitely one of the causes, but not many people know, what are the like real cause of people’s depression, because it’s different for everybody. And sometimes it could be experiential, it could be any reaction to something very traumatic. And then hopefully, those situations it doesn’t kind of last long. But if it is, neurochemical, then definitely people you know, need to get professional help for that outside of talk therapy.
Michael Hingson 53:26
Right. Well, in terms in terms of spirituality, how does that enter into and when you talk about spirituality? What do you mean by that?
Sylvia Bartley 53:38
So what I mean about that is I mean, looking inwards and looking like at the wider plan, knowing that I call it the universe, right? People will say, call it God, or, and I do believe in God, and I pray to God, right talk about universal timing and the power of the universal. And knowing that there is a bigger plan, greater than us, there was a life here before us, I believe, we chose up I believe we choose our parents, I believe, we come here with an assignment, everybody comes with an assignment. And I believe that by saying that, I believe we will have our path and our purpose. And my goal is to align with my path and my purpose so I can really live to my full potential in this lifetime. And that’s what I mean about spirituality. So it’s less about the external factors, less about striving to externally achieved but more to internally achieved, and that achievement is alignment with my spiritual path and purpose. And I believe once I do that, and when I achieve that, everything will fall into place, and I’ll be at peace, and I will kind of live my full life and I’m and again, I don’t know if I’ll ever be fully on my path and purpose. I’m always seeking. I call myself a seeker. I’m always seeking I’m asking a question, but I feel I’m pretty much on the on track and it feels Good. And I know when I’m off track because it doesn’t feel good when I’m doing things that doesn’t sit right with me. And, you know, it’s not it’s very difficult for me to do and it’s not what I’m supposed to be doing. And so I’m aware enough now to say, well, I’m going to submit that to the universe. And I’m just going to, you know, reset and redirect myself to make sure that I am on path so I can do it on put on this earth to do and as well. Yeah.
Michael Hingson 55:27
Whether you call it the universe, or God, do you believe that God talks to us,
Sylvia Bartley 55:33
I believe God talks us in many ways. Now, you know, you’re not going to hear a voice or you’re not going to see a burning bush either. But you’re going to have signs some people do. That’s not me. But you’ll have signs you will have feelings. And you will hear stuff, it’s not going to be a voice again, but you will hear messages. And and that will come maybe in your dreams, maybe through another person that you’re talking to. But the important thing is, one has got to be in a place to be able to hear and receive, I believe this is of
Michael Hingson 56:04
everybody. And there’s the reality of
Sylvia Bartley 56:07
it still. And this is where the mindfulness and the spirituality comes into it. Being sterile. Whether you’re meditating or just being still and tapping into silence, this is when you’re in a best place to receive and understand what it is that your assignment and your purposes, this is, when you’re in your best place to receive those messages that you’re so desperately seeking that you know, and to receive that guidance. And that’s a big part of spirituality, together with doing things that prepares your vessel because we are physical matter, right. And our spirits live within us, we house our spirit, and we house our soul. And, you know, I focus on trying to keep my vessel as healthy as possible. So it’s in a good strong place to house my spirit, and my soul is all intertwined. You know, it’s very complicated, very deep. But that is a big part of it. So we are, you know, it, we’re in a flamed body, we have inflammation due to the fact that we’re eating foods that are inflammatory, and we have inflamed guts, and we’re having, you know, inflamed neurons in our brain, because we’re in flames that got inflamed the brain to I believe, and we’re having a chronic illness, it’s very difficult for us to do what we’re supposed to do on this earth. And so, you know, our physical being, and health is obviously very important. And it ties closely with our emotional health, as well,
Michael Hingson 57:36
I think it is possible to hear a voice. But again, I think it all comes down to exactly what you said, we get messages in many ways, because God or the universe is is always trying to talk to people. And I think we have, oftentimes, selectively and collectively chosen to ignore it, because we think we know all the answers. And if there’s one thing I’ve learned in 72 years, we don’t necessarily know the answers, but the answers are available if we look for them. And I think that’s really what you’re saying, which goes back to being calm, being quiet, taking time to, to analyze, we’re in the process of writing a book. Finally, for the moment, called a guide dogs Guide to Being brave, which is all about learning to control fear and learning that fear does not need to be blinding as I describe it, or paralyzing or whatever you want to call it. But that it can be an absolutely helpful thing in teaching you to make decisions, but you need to learn to control it. And you need to learn to recognize its value, just like we need to learn to recognize the value of pain or anything else in our lives. And, in fact, if we do that, and we we recognize what fear can really do for us by slowing down by analyzing by internalizing, we will be much stronger for it. And we’re more apt to hear that voice that oftentimes people just call that quiet voice that we may not hear.
Sylvia Bartley 59:14
Mm hmm. Absolutely agree.
Michael Hingson 59:18
So it’s, it’s, it is a challenge because we’re not used to doing that. We don’t like giving up control, if you will. Yep,
Sylvia Bartley 59:26
yep. But once you know, and everyone will get there once we, for me, once I got there is a journey doesn’t happen overnight. It can take years to get to that place. But you know, once you get there, it’s so enlightening. And you just feel like it’s funny, there’s not there’s not often a feel like I might directly on path and purpose. And I get a glimpse of it once in a while. And it feels so different. It feels so light, it feels so right. And that’s where I want to be for, you know, a majority of my time that I have left in his lifetime, I want to feel that by the time so that is my, that is my goal.
Michael Hingson 1:00:05
And the more you seek it, the more of it you’ll find. Yeah, hopefully, you will. It’s it’s all a matter of realizing it’s there if we look for it, and it may not show up exactly the way we expected. But so the issue is really that it shows up, right?
Sylvia Bartley 1:00:24
It is. And yeah, I read somewhere that says, you know, just be open, just really try your best show up. Because people say, How do you know your own path and purpose? How do you know this is right for me, you know, you got to show up, you got to do your best. And you got to give it all you’ve got, and you got to let it go. Let it go to the universe and have no expectation for the outcome. But just be open to all kinds of possibilities and where that will lead you. Very hard to do. Yeah. And it’s
Michael Hingson 1:00:53
always appropriate to ask the question, Did I do my best? Did I did I get the message? Am I missing something? And look for the answer? Yes, Sylvia, this has been a lot of fun. We have spent an hour and we didn’t even have a snowball fight Darn. too hot for that. It’s it’s gonna be over 90. We’re cooling down out here right now. We were over 100 for the last 10 days. So it’s hot here in California. But I really enjoyed having you. How can people reach out to you or learn more about you?
Sylvia Bartley 1:01:30
Excellent. Thank you for asking that question. I think if you go to my website, I have a little website here. And it’s sylvia-bartley.com. That is S Y L V I A hyphen, B A R T L E Y.com. And you can you know, just tell you a bit more about me. You can see my podcasts, my books, and there’s a method of getting in touch with me if you want to.
Michael Hingson 1:01:57
Is the podcast available in a variety of different places? Or is the best website?
Sylvia Bartley 1:02:04
It’s available on multiple platforms? Apple, Google, Spotify. And what’s the community show with Dr. Sylvia? Conversations cultivating change? Do the
Michael Hingson 1:02:17
first part again. The more we know Community, the more we know. Okay.
Sylvia Bartley 1:02:22
Community show with Dr. Sylvia. Conversations cultivating change.
Michael Hingson 1:02:28
And I hope that people will seek you out. This has been for me very fascinating. I love learning new things and getting a chance to meet fascinating people. And I’ll buy into the fact that you’re a unicorn, it works for me.
Sylvia Bartley 1:02:46
Well, I’m just me, you know, but I appreciate the invite to be on your podcast, Michael. And thank you very much for providing this platform to share stories and information with your listeners too.
Michael Hingson 1:02:59
Thank you and we love stories and if people would love to comment, I really appreciate it if you would. I’d love to hear from you about this. You can reach out to me at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to www dot Michael hingson hingson is h i n g s o n.com/podcast To learn about the podcast. And also you can find us wherever podcasts are available. If you happen to find us on the website, you can find us anywhere where you can do podcasts. Please give us a five star rating. We appreciate your comments and your ratings there would keep us going and any input that you have of people you think we should have on the podcast. We’d love to hear from you about that. We’re always looking for more guests. And Sylvia likewise if you know people we should chat with I would love your your recommendations and suggestions.
Sylvia Bartley 1:03:57
Michael Hingson 1:04:00
Well, thank you very much one more time for being here. And we very much enjoyed our time with you. Excellent. Thank you Michael.
Michael Hingson 1:04:12
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.