Episode 29 – A Man Who Knows What He Likes Even If It Is Swimming Off The California Coast In 55 Degree Weather With Matt Wrock

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Episode Summary
No, Matt Wrock is not crazy. His day job finds him working as a software engineer and he does the job well. However, before work on many days, no matter what the season, you will find him swimming off the Dana Point coast in California. Is he afraid of the sea creatures or even 55 degree water temperatures? Listen to this week’s episode of Unstoppable Mindset to find out. Matt will tell us even how he has learned not to fear the cold and how he finds peace in his swimming. Matt is truly unstoppable in his passion.
About the Guest: 
Matt Wrock is a software engineer living in Dana Point, California. Matt has been a runner for 45 years, a meditator, and an occasional blogger. Matt holds a deep love for the ocean and since returning to Southern California two years ago, he has been swimming year round, 7 miles a week without a wet suit. Matt has encountered dolphins, seals, and great solace in his swims and loves to talk about it.

About the Host: 
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Transcription Notes

Ad  00:01
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UM Intro/Outro  00:30
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us. 

Michael Hingson  01:50
Hi, thanks for joining us on another episode of unstoppable mindset. We’re glad you’re you’re here. And we hope that you’ll find our presentations today. Interesting. We have a fun guest I think in a lot of ways. I won’t reveal it all. But I’ll just tell you that he’s been a software engineer. He’s been a blogger. He’s been on some podcasts. He’s a runner. He’s a meditator, and he loves the ocean. And we’ll get into all of that today. As we we get a chance to talk to Matt. So Matt Wrock, welcome to unstoppable mindset.

Matt Wrock  02:24
Thank you. Thank you very, very happy to be here.

Michael Hingson  02:27
Well, we’re glad you’re here. So tell me a little bit about kind of your early years. You know, you you grew up in the Dana Point Southern California area can’t argue with that as a place to grow up. But you know what? Tell us a little bit about you earlier.

Matt Wrock  02:45
Well, yeah, like you said, I grew up in San Juan Capistrano with the high school Dana Hills High School so which is in Dana Point. And kind of basically kind of grew up at the beach. So the beach was really kind of a place where I spent my my summers you know, back when I was 12 years old back in those back in those days. You have your your parents would would drop you off or you would ride your bike to the beach, you know, and you’d spend all day there by yourself, you know, with your with your other 12 year old friends. You know, today it sounds crazy like that you would do that. But you know that, you know, it’s a different world back then. And so yet in the summertime, you know, pretty much you know, it was all day at the beach would go you know, we go boogie boarding later on in Junior High in early high school, I got into surfing, we go visibility and the water was good, we’d go we’d go spearfishing and just, you know, really great place to grow up. You know, it’s funny, like, as I grew older, kind of later in the high school I kind of went to the say is like ah, you know, just a bunch of bourgeois you know, you know, rich folks you know, live here there’s nothing really fun exciting to do, you know, certainly things must be more exciting in other parts of the world. And then as you become an adult and you mature you realize you know, it wasn’t so bad back then you know back there there’s something to be said for you know, for that ocean and so so yeah, just that’s the kind of pretty much covers my my life back.

Michael Hingson  04:35
So so when you went to the ocean boys and girls

Matt Wrock  04:39
Yeah, I mean, for me there was I mean, There absolutely are boys and girls at the at the ocean of all ages. But you know, my my friends. Were guys, we’re all we’re all guys. Yeah, we just all go surfing or whatever.

Michael Hingson  04:55
So then you went off to college. Where’d you do that?

Matt Wrock  04:59
Oh boy. Did I not do that? So, one of those deals? Yes, I was on the 10 year plan. And so like, as you mentioned, you I’m, I’m a software engineer. Now, I don’t think I ever took a software course in college. So I started off as a religious studies major. And, you know, that’s a topic that continues to be very interesting to me. So, back to my childhood, I was raised, and I was raised in a kind of a Christian conservative evangelical home. And, you know, the point when I went into college, you know, I wanted to go, I initially wanted to go into the ministry. So I was a religious studies major at Cal State Fullerton went to Biola University eventually. And there, I kind of, I guess you could say, you know, quote, unquote, lost my face. And just kind of had had some kind of existential questions, so to speak about all that, you know, kind of burn that all to the ground. And so I took a break from school after Biola. And then I went to UC Santa Barbara, a few years later, spent several quarters there got burnout, and took another couple years off. And then finally, I just said, you know, I just, I’ve got to get this thing done. Like, I’ve got to get my bachelor’s. Because I was under this impression that I’ve since have come to learn that wasn’t necessarily true. But you know, I think I think most of us kind of grew up, like, you know, you have to get your college degree, otherwise, you know, you’ll, you’ll end up, you know, eating on the street somewhere. And so I was living in San Francisco at the time. And the University of San Francisco had this programs kind of geared towards people that worked. And, basically, it was the easiest way I could think of to get my degree. So I got my degree in organizational behavior, which I, I honestly had zero interest. In that degree, I do not encourage people to go out and get degrees, which they have zero interest in. And the funny thing is, is, you know, so we’re living in San Francisco. And this is right, like, this is the late 90s. So it’s right around that.com, that first.com bubble, when it was still about, you know, before it burst, and I’m living off of seven bucks an hour, and I’m seeing people my age doing quite well for themselves. They can maybe there’s some maybe that wouldn’t be such a bad idea to get into those computers. And back in junior high, I was super into computer. So I like I learned on the Apple two and I had an Atari 800. You know, so for those that are into computers that are, you know, in their 50s Like myself, you will remember those and, and so that’s exactly what I did, I like into it and just serendipitously kind of made my way. And, you know, here I am. I’m a Principal Engineer for for a company that you see based out of Seattle, but we got acquired by a company out in the Boston area. And fairly decent career for myself. So,

Michael Hingson  08:19
so when you were doing the early computers, did you ever see any of the old Tandy or RadioShack computers? Oh,

Matt Wrock  08:24
yeah, absolutely, man. Grew up in San Juan, you know, we had a regular like everybody else. We had a radio shack and yeah, I’d ride my bike down there. I would just like gawk at that. You know, that. Rs. What was it the Rs? or the TRS? 80? Yeah. 80. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You’re the old Commodores. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hingson  08:46
K Pro, which was in San Diego per second came out, and which was sort of the equivalent of the IBM x t are actually more than 80 With with Kaypro. I owned a company for a while, and we sold as as the basis of what we did a lot of the Kaypro machines and now all that’s gone away.

Matt Wrock  09:07
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it’s a it’s a different. It’s a totally different world. Now we have this thing called the internet.

Michael Hingson  09:15
Yeah, I’ve heard of that. I gotta ask this. This just popped into my brain. So you went and did a lot of swimming back in the days when you were 12 and 13. And all that. And seemed to be pretty fearless about it. Nowadays. We see a lot more of shark attacks and all that sort of stuff. The question is, is it really more now than there used to be because they’re hungrier and they discovered that we taste good, or is it just that the media is covering it a lot more and there really still isn’t that much more than there ever was?

Matt Wrock  09:55
Yeah, I don’t know. Like I’ve never like actually research it but even back then you’re like, like The movie like remember the movie that came out was like in the early 70s. And I have an uncle that today, he still talks about that movie and says he’s never gone in the ocean, you know, and, and so I tend to think that it was kind of the same back then as it was. Today, you know, I mean, basically, you know, you step in the ocean, and your chances are going to be greater than 0% that you’re going to run into run into a shark, but very, you know, very low, of course, you know, it does depend on, you know, some, you know, there are some areas that have more than others, you know, here in Dana Point. There have been, I mean, there have been more sightings, like down in the San Clemente area, which is just south of us and San Diego County, which is the next county south. We’re in Orange County. But, you know, I’ve heard, I’ve heard it also said that people are more surprised as How about how few shark attacks there are based on just how many sharks there are in the ocean? And how many people there are, there are swimming, the fact of the matter is, for the most part, sharks, just they’re not interested in us, like we’re not good food. And most of the attacks you hear about from what I understand, like, I’m not an expert on this, but from what I understand, are from juvenile sharks that basically don’t know any better and are and I’m more curious. So yeah, I saw Yeah, I’m not sure if there’s necessarily like, more now than there was when I was younger, but I tend to think that there’s not

Michael Hingson  11:33
Well, if the world does change, you mentioned Orange County, go find an orange tree in Orange County today. Yeah. When I was a student at UC Irvine, we, through a friend discovered a packing house up in orange, actually, ironically, we could go up and buy 2025 pounds pounds of oranges in this big box for like, three bucks. And, of course, finding oranges in Orange County today. Fresh on trees, not there.

Matt Wrock  12:05
Well, you mentioned to me before the recording that you went to school, and you see a UCI in Irvine, and I remember, you drive to Irvine on the five freeway, and plenty of orange trees that, you know, back when I was like, seven, like, yeah, 45 years ago, but yeah, not so much today, no thought of concrete.

Michael Hingson  12:28
The first time we went to Disneyland, we were living in Palmdale, and you drove down through the edge of the Angeles crest highway, and you drove down into Los Angeles and out of Los Angeles. And then you were in this tunnel of vegetation, trees and so on. And suddenly, you came out into this little oasis that was Disneyland. And it was was all vegetation and not built up. Now, it’s all built, and they say it’s progress. But I guess we’ll, I guess we’ll see. Yeah, so what kind of software things do you do?

Matt Wrock  13:12
So, um, I, I am in the what’s called the configuration management space are also what’s known as kind of the DevOps space that are in my space to be familiar with that. So that’s essentially where we’re developers meets the operations, we, we create software, I guess you could call it, you know, automation software. So if you’re, if you’re a company that has, you know, 1000s of servers, and you need a way to make all of those servers, you know, look a certain way, and you don’t have, you know, 1000 engineers to spend hours on each individual servers, we write software, that, that helps automate that process that basically says, Hey, we’ve got 1000 servers that are gonna check in to this particular kind of master server and say, you know, we want to look like this, you know, make us look like this. And that’s exactly what happens.

Michael Hingson  14:10
Do you ever in your work this deviates from what you’re probably normally asked, but do you in your work, ever get asked or find requirements to deal with accessibility so that as you’re making sure that machines look the same or behave the same and so on, that you do something to build accessibility in for, say, blind people who use screen readers to make sure that when they look the same, they look the same to everyone so that everyone can use them? Do you ever encounter that?

Matt Wrock  14:41
You know, at one point in my career, I did a lot more kind of web type of development. And there and that, you know, there there were certain things that you know, appealed to you that we tried to make more accessible not quite to the extent yet Surprisingly, not quite to the extent that you’re talking about. So, because they were somewhat smaller, they were somewhat smaller web operations and you know, the audience’s that we were catering to just, you know, it wasn’t like, you know, mass mass mass consumer audience for there would be, you know, a lot of disabled individuals, you know, in that in that population, not saying that there wouldn’t be any, and the populations that we were facing what, in what I do today, there may very well be like some of our customers that may be using our software in such a way to ensure that, you know, certain settings and so forth on their servers, do accommodate, you know, those with with accessibility issues. But as far as me personally, in the work that I that I do, I’m, I’m working at kind of like a very kind of a low level, and kind of more of a, what you would call a systems engineer, engineering level. And so, accessibility concerns aren’t don’t don’t come into my purview to too often to be honest.

Michael Hingson  16:10
Yeah, it’s a, it’s a tough thing. Because mostly, we still don’t see the industry, the technology industry, making products inclusive. And it’s not just for consumers. But it’s also for the potential employees who might work at a company that that things become usable, that there just isn’t a trend still. And it’s, it’s difficult, because we’re just not a priority that people have recognized yet. And ironically, the other side of that is something that I actually had a discussion about with someone recently on another episode of unstoppable mindset, which is that if you work to make products, or your company, available to an inclusive to all persons, including those with disabilities, what statistics and there’s a lot of hard evidence to show this, what you will find is that employees like blind employees who you hire, who can use your products on the job, and do the work that you want them to do, will tend to be a whole lot more loyal, will work a lot harder, because we know how hard it is to get a job. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And we just don’t see that people are breaking through that barrier yet. Because there’s still so much fear surrounding the whole concept of disability, you know, which is a term everybody just still feels if you are a person with a disability, that you’re just not able, we’ve been able to work so many other words, so, you know, hopefully one of these days people will break through and recognize that disability isn’t really what they think it is. But you know, it’s kind of one of those things.

Matt Wrock  18:08
Yeah, I have a huge amount of respect for, you know, especially somebody that’s visually impaired, you know, in my industry, because it is not, you know, like, it’s just, it’s not friendly to, to that demographic, by any means. And, you know, the technology has definitely come along, but you know, there’s screen readers and so forth. But like, I’ve heard that I’ve heard some of the screen readers and like, I just can’t imagine having to, you know, work with that. It just, you know, because it reads literally everything on your screen, you don’t need to read everything on your screen, but it doesn’t know. And at least the ones that I’ve

Michael Hingson  18:48
well, but the reality was screen readers is that the good ones have built in a lot of features and a lot of control so that you can skip around to different parts of the screen, you can you can move not linearly necessarily at all. Although linear is the is the most common way where you just arrow through line by line. But you don’t need to do that anymore. It is a whole lot different. But it used to be that way where you didn’t have a lot of control. But today, the reality is that we can zoom around the screen. Pardon the pun for zoom, but we can zoom around the screen just as well as the next person what we don’t get his a lot of the graphical information necessary. Yeah. as easily. Even Even so that’s getting to be better and and will evolve over time. But it is it is getting there. Interesting. But yeah, screen readers are really devices that have come a long way. And also because the information is readily available. Some people and I do myself use Braille displays refreshable braille displays. Unfortunately, there’s still only kind of one or two lines long. But still, you can use refreshable braille displays and actually present the information in Braille, which in a lot of ways, is preferable because it’s quieter, although I use your phone, so people don’t hear it anyway. But it’s quieter, again, as displays advanced will be able to display will be able to actually show graphics on them, which is, which is cool. I’m actually working with a company helping to create a, a way to display graphics in Braille, which will be cool.

Matt Wrock  20:39
Wow, that is super cool.

Michael Hingson  20:43
So it’s a lot of fun. You know, we’ll, we’ll see where it all goes. But you, but you do software stuff. And then there’s the rest of your day. So I’d love to hear more about you in the ocean and kind of what you do because sharks or not, it is still something that most of us don’t do. I tend not to be much of an ocean swimmer. I’ve been in the ocean and I’ve played in the ocean some, but it isn’t normally what I do. But it’s not so much out of fear is it is just, that’s just not what I do.

Matt Wrock  21:20
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. And you had to be like, for me, you know, I was 10 minutes away. So it’s just, it’s convenient, you know, I can make it part of my weekly exercise regimen. Whereas, you know, if you’re further, you know, there’s only so many, you know, there’s only so many coastlines, you know, in the world. So

Michael Hingson  21:42
there are so, so tell us a little bit more about what you do.

Matt Wrock  21:46
Yeah, so. So I for the last, it’ll be two years this May I swim about? I’ve about a 1.1 and a quarter mile one and three quarter mile, I guess, I guess you could call it a route. It’s, you know, there’s not much of a route to it. When you’re you’re swimming along the coast. I do that about four days a week.

Michael Hingson  22:10
It probably isn’t really fair to say your route is fluid. Oh, anyway, all right.

Matt Wrock  22:16
The idea is a week year round. I don’t I don’t wear a wetsuit. And so, you know, this time of year? Well, you know, we just had a heatwave down here. So that that got things, you know, almost to 60 degrees, you know, here, but in February, but typically it’s around like, you know, 5575, probably at the lowest, probably averages around 57 degrees. So it’s a little, it’s a it’s a little cool, but, but I’ve found it to be actually an amazing, I guess you could say an amazing teacher. And so that’s yeah, that’s, that’s essentially, that’s, that’s what I do. I sometimes I used to do it, you know, first thing in the morning. Lately, I’ve got the 730 meeting that I have every morning, so I can’t do that. So I do it kind of it’s an it’s a nice way to break up the day. So it takes us about a to two hours from the time I leave my house, the time I get back, when you account for driving time takes about 15 minutes to get from the parking lot to the beach at the beach that I go to. It’s just been Yeah, it started around COVID You’re just after COVID So before COVID Yeah, I was I running was burning and running still is a big part of my my physical exercise I was really into I would do a fair amount of weightlifting mainly to avoid injury for from from running. And so after COVID When the gym shut down, I wasn’t I was missing that. That full body workout and, and and so you know, one day, it was like, you know, it was late May the Watts Up, I was noticing that in the new papers, the water was about 68 degree which is pretty comfortable. And I was listening to this podcast about a about a freedom free diver. So free diving is basically the sport that people that will dive to like these amazing depths with no, no scuba gear. So it just kind of got me into this mood. It was a warm day. And just thought you know what, I’m 10 minutes away from that ocean. And I was I thought there was a tractor beam, you know, out there like driving out to Arizona in the morning. And then that afternoon like I didn’t even have a bathing suit like that, you know, fit me properly. And so I just parked my car, you know, put some shorts on. And I didn’t swim very far that day that just like I was I was hooked. Yeah, it was just it was just an incredible experience just getting getting in out to the water, you know, it was it was 62 the papers that it was 60 degrees. And sometimes, you know, you got to take what the paper says with a bit of a grain of salt. So I would say it was probably more towards like the 6564 ish. So you after doing this a couple years, you become accustomed to like, degree by degree almost, with the waters like but but like, when I got out of that water that day, I just felt like this amazing feeling like just, you know, it’s almost like a just a rush, just just, it just felt so kind of just in tune with nature. And it just really became something that like, like, I’m, I really want to do this tomorrow. And then I want to do it then, you know, a couple days after that. And so I’ve just been doing that, doing that ever since.

Michael Hingson  26:02
So what’s the water temperature when it was like 68 or 65? Depending on who you believe? What would the water temperature be?

Matt Wrock  26:10
Oh, so yeah, so this was late May. So from from I would say April. So surprisingly, all the way through, and you know, fluctuates. But all the way through, could be early November, the water will stay in the you know, in the mid 60s, not the higher the summer, you know, it can get up it can get down here it can get as warm as the mid 70s. That doesn’t, it might not last for incredibly long. And there’s even periods of the summer like July where it can dip down to the low 60s, we have this thing called upwelling where he basically it’s the it’s caused by the wind. And so you get the wind that pushes the, the water that’s deep, you know, up towards the surface, and the water can get a lot colder for and sometimes that’ll last for about a week or so. But

Michael Hingson  27:07
so so I see it’s about 54 degrees in Dana Point right now, according to my little echo device. What would the water temperature be this time of year?

Matt Wrock  27:19
That’s about so we said, yeah, so So I’m sure that’s That sounds probably about accurate. I mean, that’s and that’s at the cold end. And we just had winds.

Michael Hingson  27:30
So yes, it’s pretty cold right now. In Southern California in general, the grapevine going up, Northern California is all close we’ve got there, they originally forecasted in Big Bear, which is about 40 miles from us. Three to five inches, and now they’re saying eight to 12 inches of snow today. So it’s pretty cold.

Matt Wrock  27:53
Yeah. So basically when that when that, you know, when the days get gets shorter, you’ve got more nighttime, you know, cooler, cooler, more time of cooler temperatures. Right now you’ve got this win, which just really can can make things a lot colder. So what will happen, so it’s 54 day, but say, in a week, you know, so So we’ve on the on the forecast, we’ve got some 70 degree weather forecasted for early next week, I’m pretty sure a week, like 5859. And then, and then magically, so I’ve only been doing this for a couple years, I’m still learning like what the patterns are like, but last year, I can tell you, like the last few days of March, it’s like springtime has come suddenly things are things are changing and moving in the right direction in those last few days, it starts pushing over 60 And for me, like you, I think you’ve been doing this for a while your body does kind of like my body is much more, you know, accustomed to it now that when I first started so once I get once it goes over that 60 degree mark. Yeah, it might be on the cooler side. But there’s this threshold, you know, the further you get away from 60 degrees, you know, the further north of 60 you get, the more comfortable it gets, the more better appeals. But but once you dip below 60 At least for me, it’s like it is a different kind of a different ballgame. And which you especially notice when you get out of the water. But you know I can I can certainly talk more about just that whole experience of cold water swimming because it’s a it’s a whole kind of phenomenon in my mind unto itself. So well. So when, you know, when you get in the water then I guess the best way that I could, that I can put it is it’s like first of all, you know when you get below that 60 degree level There’s just like this, oh my god, the water is so cold. And so you have to kind of come up with a way of okay, so how am I going to approach this? And when I first started swimming, yes, I started swimming in the springtime, you know, the summer. And you know, over that summer over the course of those several months, I really gained this love of swimming, I was thinking, Well, so what am I going to do in the wintertime when it gets super cold. And most of the people that I saw swimming, you know, even the summertime are wearing what suits but to me, there is a certain visceral I guess you could say intimacy that I feel, you know, when I’m with you, I like feeling it on my skin. And. And so and so I’m wondering, you know, like, your first when’s it going to get cold? And how am I going to react to it getting cold, the one thing that ran October, it was still warm. And I saw this documentary, give some of your listeners may, it’s rather popular was on Netflix. It’s called My octopus teacher. And it’s about this, this diver based in based in South Africa, and his water temperature was in the 40s in the hall he was wearing with a hood. So he wasn’t wearing you know, he was, that’s that was the only neoprene that he that he had on him. And so I’m looking at that and thinking, Wait a second, it’s not going to get that color. He’s alive. And so I guess it’s possible because to me, like, like, here in Dana Point, even in the summertime, the surfer dollars were full wetsuits, and a lot of the swimmers were with wetsuits. So just know. So yeah, just my, in my mind, I’m just thinking, like, Is this even possible? Is it even healthy? Like, can you even survive out there? And so, I saw that I did a little bit of research on it. And, and based on the research I did I go, you certainly can, of course, you know, you always have to be careful, you always have to be aware of your, of your limits. So, so eventually, November came, first storm came with that, and the water temperatures plummeted. And, and so the first day, I went out there, and it was about 5755. And it was just like, I don’t know how to describe it, it was just like, it was like a different kind of cold. But, you know, as you’re in there, you, you, it’s, it’s, it’s odd to say, but there’s not a sensation of of suffering per se, I guess that’s the best way I could I can put it. So when you take that initial plunge.

Matt Wrock  32:45
And what you really need to do when you when you’re doing that, as I discovered Having done this, if you can’t, you can’t resist it. So you can’t go out there just saying, you know, oh my god, it’s so cold, like, ah, you know, you know that, that feeling of like, I just want to be warmer, I want this cold to go away. Like you have to accept the cold. But you have to you have to have a curiosity of the cold and allow yourself to really feel to really feel the cold. And when you do that, and, you know, this is just, you know, this is my personal experience. When you do that, you realize that it’s not, it’s, it’s not plunging you into this into this, like, this, this this abyss of suffering, like you think that it would as a matter of fact, you feel incredibly alive. And there, there will be days where I’ll I’ll go to the beach. And I’ll kind of feel like I’m in the doldrums and you know, might have you know, just like a tad bit of, you know, just feeling down when I take that plunge into the water. It just, it’s like it just shocks me. And I and my whole mindset just shifts. And, and I am just in and what’s interesting is as I’m walking in, so what’s what’s worse, I’ll tell you what’s worse than the cold. It’s the anticipation of the cold. So as I’m walking to the beach from the parking lot, I’m feeling I am feeling this dread. And I’m thinking oh my god, I just got out of this warm bed. I’ve got my sweatshirt on now, I’m not feeling too bad. Why in the world would I want to take this sweatshirt off? You know, am I am I you know, in would just my bathing suit, get into that cold water like like how could that be? A good idea. And and first of all I have to remember Okay, at this point, I’ve done this hundreds of times. And of those hundreds of times have I ever gotten into that water and felt like oh my god, this is horrible. I want to get out of there. No, I have it. In fact, I felt that previous zero times. And and the thing that you have that But I’ve learned that you have to, you have to deal with that voice of fear. As a friend, you can’t put you can’t push it away. And what I’ll tell myself is, you know what, I don’t have anything to prove. I’m not, this isn’t a macho type of thing, where I’m out there to prove that I can go swimming in cold water, this is something that I’m doing, you know, for myself, if I get out into that water, and I feel horrible, or I feel, you know, there’s the I can, I can get right out of the water, you know, like, I have the freedom to do that, you know, I can make the choice, I can turn around, I can go back, I can dry off and I can go home, you know, that’s totally cool. But the set, but the, here’s the thing, the second I take that plunge into the water, I never, I’ve never felt that. It’s it over time I’ve gotten you I’ve gotten used to it. And it used to be kind of like, oh, I can get into this cold water. But now it just comes, it becomes so natural to me. And you just, you just so I walked down that trail to the beach, I acknowledged that voice that says, you know, this is nuts, I don’t want to do this, you know, I just, you know, I acknowledge the presence of that voice. And I just, you know, that I’m committed to getting in there. And at least getting at least getting in and you put your backpack down, you put you take your sweatshirt off, you put it in the backpack, you turn around your face that water, you watch, you focus on your breath. And, and you just let the water come and then you take that dive. And yes, you feel cold, but because you feel cold doesn’t mean you feel bad. So you really have to kind of approach it, you have to be receptive

Matt Wrock  36:48
to, to the cold, you know, so just allow yourself to feel the cold to feel the power of that cold. And, and it’s like, the best way I could describe it is it’s like a portal. So you as as you walk out, you’re walking out into the ocean, and you’ve got the troubles of life and, or the fear of the cold, you take that first plunge, you know, under, you know, under that under that wave, and you come up, you’re in a you’re in a you are in a totally different mindset, your whole mindset has changed. And you are you know, I am ready to swim and within, you know, seconds, or you know, certainly a couple minutes, my whole Yep, so your body does go through a physiological change. So when you’re in cold water like this, what will happen is your blood goes away from your extremities away from your skin and towards your core. Because you’re your body, you know, at this point, your body’s number one goal is to keep your internal organs warm, you know, and you know, add up, you know, at a warmer temperature. And so, as that’s happening, physiologically you’re going you’re you’re going into a whole different mode. So, five minutes into a swim, I actually feel great, you know, from from, from a temperature point of view, it sounds super odd, but I do not you know, after about five minutes, I do not feel cold. Now I’m in the water for an hour. And after that first Oh 30 or 40 minutes, the cold does start to creep in. So the last 20 minutes, honestly, it’s the last 20 minutes, the hardest part of the swim, your your fingers start to feel a little like, like you have a hard time getting your fingers to come come together. But even there, you know, it’s interesting, there’s there’s kind of certain psychological things that that I learned in and what the first thing is, is to be calm. So as that cold is creeping in here thinking oh my god, I’m gonna catch hypothermia. Oh my god, I’m gonna die. You know, this is bad, you know, like, great, you know, here I am a husband, I’m a father, you know, this is the most irresponsible thing, you know, that I could, you know, I’m gonna end up you know, people are gonna come to you. And suddenly like, you notice like, all these voices are in your head telling you about all these horrible things are going to happen. And you have to make a choice to hush those voices. And when you do that, you realize you know what, things really aren’t that things are not that bad. And I don’t want to because Hamilton hypothermia is real and it is a risk when you go into the cold water and every person is different and in different beaches have different have different risks. So I don’t want to all minimize and say oh, you know, it’s no it’s okay. You know, you’re always going to be saying, you know, as we talked before you there are sharks you know, the chances are is super super super small that you’re going to bet but like Yeah, like that. The chances are greater than 0% that you will see that you will see stars

Michael Hingson  40:04
I’ve never seen. But look at all of this, you know what you’re talking about, you know, we call this test the unstoppable mindset. And you have, you have talked all along here about your mindset, the mindset that you have adopted, that you’ve learned to adopt. And yeah, even after 40 minutes or so, your body temperature clearly is dropping, you’re getting messages about that. But even then, with the fear, your mindset has taught you how to take control of that fear, and be able to step back and you start to see, well, maybe it’s time to start wrapping this up here fairly soon. Because you know what to do, but you have you have adopted a mindset, you’ve created a mindset that allows you to deal with all of these conditions, and not do anything too stupid or too funny.

Matt Wrock  41:03
Right, right. Exactly. And, you know, this whole time, you know, I’m Listen, probably a blessing 100 feet out. So I have the ability to swim in. I’ve actually when it got cold, I did change kind of the way that I was like, I now go to the middle of the beach, and I swim to one end, and then all the way down to the other end and back. So at a certain point, I have the ability to bail. So if I get rolled, right, I give myself kind of that that out. I’ve only taken myself up on that four times. And none of those times have been because I was too cold is because like I was time constrained or, or, or whatever. But

Michael Hingson  41:40
so does your wife ever go swimming with you?

Matt Wrock  41:43
No. i Yeah, it’s not. It’s definitely not for everyone. But I’m, there’s, there’s definitely a you know, there are other people that do this, that, you know, I see other people out there and it always surprises me why more people don’t do it. Because it really is such when you are out there at seven o’clock in the morning, you know, or 630 in the morning, especially you know that the sun has just come up. I mean, he just sees the most amazing things. You’re out there by yourself. The horizon it, it’s it becomes like this incredible shade of like kind of purple pink. You see the moon up in the distance, I’ll be swimming and I’ll see a school of pelicans. You know, just come swoop down. I’ve seen dolphins, I’ve had a dolphin swim, you know, literally swim around me. I’ve seen seals that seen a seal come right up to my face. And swim with me for for a period of time. I’ve seen your schools of fish. And it’s just, it’s just such an you know, it’s just such an amazing experience.

Michael Hingson  42:52
Have you met it? Have you met a whale yet?

Matt Wrock  42:55
No, but but about three weeks ago, I was in Hawaii. And you know, I’m in Hawaii. So I’m going to sweat every single day. And and right now is humpback whale season. And so I didn’t see any like when I was out in the water, but it’s when you dive you can hear them. And that was the most that was it. That was amazing. Like so you die, then you can hear it sounds like a baby crying was the first kind of thing that I could think of. But that was that was that. That was pretty neat.

Michael Hingson  43:30
It’s it’s got to be a lot of fun and fascinating just to see all these creatures out in the sea. And as you said, have a seal come up and and look at your nose and yeah, follow you around, and then the dolphins and so on. You know, and and you’re right, not everyone will do this. And not everyone is cut out to do it, I suppose. But by the same token, it’s still all about adopting mindsets. You know, you asked me earlier before we started this about me living in New York and I mentioned being in the World Trade Center in the story that I’ve been telling people for a little bit now because I finally kind of figured it out was that when the airplane hit the building, it hit 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. And for me, I didn’t become fearful. What what happened was that I had spent a lot of time prior to September 11 2001. Learning the complex learning what all the rules and regulations were for evacuation procedures and such, and learning every single thing that I could and partly I did it. Well, mainly I did it because I was in charge of an office. So I ran that facility and I needed to be able to function like I viewed everyone else who functioned as a leader of an office. Now in reality I think think that, that I took it a step further than a lot of people do. But I wanted to be able to be as capable, as independent, as sufficient. And as resourceful as any leader in any office in the world trade center could be. So that meant I needed to know stuff. I couldn’t be led around, I had to be independent, and to be able to walk where I wanted to go, if we were going out with customers, I needed to know where to go. And I needed to know where to go so that I could take people where they wanted to go or where we wanted to go if we wanted to go out to lunch, or, or whatever. So it was important for me to do that. But having learned all of that, and thinking almost every day when I went into the World Trade Center, anything else new to learn today? Or do I need to check anything out again, and being alert like that developed the same kind of mindset. So I knew how to control fear. That doesn’t mean I wasn’t afraid, right? On September 11, it doesn’t mean and you know very well, you’re seeing it, and you’re saying it, you don’t need to you don’t, you’re not going to be afraid. But it doesn’t mean that you’re not fearful, and you’re not totally unafraid. But what you know how to do is to control your fear, because you adopt a mindset,

Matt Wrock  46:17
right? And it’s not, it’s not a mat, it’s not a way of controlling your fear, because he’s your you’ve you’ve, you’ve defeated your fear, or you’ve tackled your fear, but you’ve met your fear, and you’ve acknowledged your fear. And you’ve noticed that part of yourself is okay, you know, it, it’s, it’s healthy, to be fearful sometimes. So if you’re out there in the water, and a shark comes, like, that’s a healthy fear. And I’ve you know, so I have read, like, what do you do with it, and one of the things that says is to fight back, and so I hope to never be in that situation. You know, fear is like, fear is teaching us something. And, and, and, and sometimes, you know, our minds can allow, you know, fear and other more other emotions that definitely get the better of us. But yet, one thing that this has all taught me or helped me to learn is that by kind of acknowledging that not resisting it, but accepting it as part of yourself, and just observing by just observing it, just simply observing it, and being, it can help you to kind of realize that it’s not the, the best way I can say is that it’s not the truth. So when you go out there in the water, and you think you’re like I said, it’s the anticipates the anticipation of the cold, the fear of the cold, that’s worse than the cold itself. And the irony is, is that you get all this, you know, you’ve got this fear, oh, my God, it’s gonna be horrible. In the future. This was me cold. But the reality is, when you go out there, and you have the experience, the experience ends up being great. And so, you know, every single time as I’m, as I’m going into this experience, we are walking down to the beach, you know, when the waters 54 degrees thinking, what the heck am I doing, I know, I’m going to have an experience out there. And that’s it, that experience is going to be it’s going to be a good experience. Now some days are ours are tougher than others. Other Sure. But that, you know, that carries out outside of the water yo, in our daily lives. Sure, we’re met with, with stress, you know, from all sorts of angles, and the great thing about swimming is that I’m putting myself basically in a controlled, stressful, you know, I control the stress. So I know that I’m going out into the stress lung and putting my body in distress. But when I’m in situations in real life, while I mean, it’s, you know, in situations outside of the water, you know, in my daily life, where I don’t have so much control of the stress. It really does, it helps to, to meet that, you know, that type of stress, having, you know, kind of gone through that controlled stress.

Michael Hingson  49:04
You you learn how to, to deal with stress, you learn how to be able to self analyze or step back, even if it’s an instantaneous process, and go wait a minute. Yeah, what is it that I Why am I really stressed today? And maybe sometimes there’s a reason that subconsciously, you sense for being stressed. But you can you can stop and take a look at that and go oh, here’s the deal, and then be able to move on because you again have adopted a mindset that says you you don’t have to be paralyzed or blinded by your fear you can move on with it and you can deal with it.

Matt Wrock  49:48
Right? That’s absolutely right. And what I find interesting particularly in in with with cold water, so like, you know, mindfulness or meditation Oh Are these A lot of these concepts have become, you know, popular, being aware of your stress, being aware of your feeling, and they’re great, you know, their fan, it’s fantastic. But sometimes it can, it takes a long time to kind of train your train your mind to, to not become so identified with your feelings, but when you’re in the cold water, so all these in the cold water, that is something very visceral. And, you know, the coating, and when that cold comes on you like that’s something that you can feel, you know, right now, and there’s no mistaking, you know, where that cold is. And as I’ve, as I interact with that cold, and I, I develop a curiosity about the cold, and sometimes I out there, I’m like, in my suffering, you know, is this difficult, and I’ll stop myself, I’ll think, like, let’s just really take some time and feel the cold, I guess, something that you can feel, you know, sometimes it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s harder than a more of a classical kind of a meditation type of, you know, even though those, you know, those are great environments, but there’s something I’ve learned with the cold is like, this is like, it’s, it really kind of brings us all into a more kind of a tangible, tangible level,

Michael Hingson  51:20
is has meditation helped you in developing this mindset? Or maybe a better general questions? How does meditation help you?

Matt Wrock  51:30
Well, I would say absolutely, yes. Yes. And yes. Yes, it’s helped me with this. And it’s helped. It’s helped me in general, so I started meditating. Oh, boy, like 20. So I’ve started meditating 20 years ago, and I probably meditated for a good five, six years until I stopped. And I, I started meditating in the in the Zen Buddhist tradition. So I lived in San Francisco at the time, was very close to the San Francisco Zen Center. And so we’d go to the morning meditations almost every morning. It was just an incredible experience for me. So I, like I mentioned earlier, I kind of came from a from a more of a conservative evangelical background, and having kind of, at one point, basically jettisoned that background to kind of put me into the spiritual vacuum. So I needed what Zen Buddhism really gave me was, it gave me something to do. And that’s something to do became meditation. And that became very, very helpful. And it gave me all of that within a framework that I didn’t have to, like believe anything, like believe anything that I felt was suspect, which is something at that point in my life, I just I, I really needed. And so was this something? And yes, it was, it was, it was extremely, extremely helpful, it was extremely challenging. But there was something about it, that I just, I just really believe, like, there is something here for me, and I’m willing to cook. Because for those of us that have been meditating for any period of time, you learn that it’s not, you’re not sitting on a meditation cushion, blissing out, you know, what you’re doing is you’re sitting down, you’re thinking about, like, what you’re gonna do later in the day, what you did yesterday. And, but each every, each of those thoughts is an opportunity to see, oh, I am not that thought. That thought doesn’t define me that thought is something that’s happening inside of me something that I can watch, and that I can watch about myself, but it doesn’t necessarily need to govern, to govern what I do, or how I feel. And I think as we, as we grow and we mature, along those lines, that is that becomes really becomes a good kind of growth trajectory for us, so eventually, I stopped meditating, I became a kind of a workaholic. And about five years ago, my life was kind of going in a direction where I didn’t like the direction it was going in. I just I felt like I was just kind of losing touch with who I was what I wanted to do, I was working for the sake of work. I was losing my ability to just like kind of feel human so to speak. And, and, and eventually I just said, you know, I’m just going to, you know, I’m going to stop working on the stop work. I mean, not stop working, but stop working to the point where every single night I’m going to bed with my laptop, you know on my pillow and eat horribly, try not exercising, because I think I just need to work, work, work, work work. And so I stopped that I stopped eating better, it’s funny, there was like, I basically, the best way I could describe it is that there was this voice in my heart talking to me, and I was ignoring it for a long time. And I would get still, and I would just sense, you know, what, I need to start taking better care of myself. And I started listening to that, and everything just started very slowly and gradually to just turn around. And so shortly after that, I started meditating again, and, and it was very, it just, it just opened my mind to all sorts of, you know, it just allowed me to see things in a different from a different perspective, and allowed me to see that, you know, all these things I was chasing with work that I, you know, I thought that I thought was gonna, you know, be the be all and end all where I needed to be, just, you know, wasn’t and I just needed to be quiet. And, and to, to focus on what’s around me, and allow kind of life to carry me to carry me where, where it where it sees fit to put me.

Michael Hingson  56:16
When I took a course in transcendental meditation many years ago, back in the UC Irvine days, one of the things that they said was, if you’re really deeply meditating, you may come up with bright ideas, you may come up with a lot of thoughts, and so on. Don’t act on them, let yourself meditate until you’re ready to come out. And you’ll find that the things that you need to deal with are still there. But in what you should do is to really just let your mind flow freely. And again, it’s not the bliss type of thing that, as you said, it’s not it’s, it’s more of, you’re really letting yourself be connected with your subconscious and, and all of you connecting with each other, and giving you a better perspective on how to move forward during the day.

Matt Wrock  57:04
Yes, yeah, that’s exactly exactly right. You know, we, we want to, like, you know, tackle life, and, you know, figure things out. And I think a lot of that’s part of the barrier with meditation, like, we think we’re gonna sit there, and we’re gonna, like, we’re gonna figure out our problems, you know, are we going to be given some Oracle, like, this is, you know, the way that you should live your life? And no, you know, it’s, it’s much more subtle. But it’s learning, right, just to watch those thoughts. You know, watch what’s coming into your mind and what comes in your mind. You know, they’re like clouds. And there they are, they are not your identity. And, and as you open your eyes, as you open yourself up, you become open to, to intuition, to just things pop into your head. And as you allow yourself to become observant of that, and not get so rushed into, like, what’s happening right now? Or what’s this thing that I want to do go out your mind to settle down and like, maybe think, okay, it’s okay, if I don’t figure this all out right now. Or if it’s okay, if it’s okay, that I don’t reach the outcome that I think is so important, it’s okay, if I open myself up to thinking to the possibility, that maybe what, what, what I need the most that’s out there, I have no idea what that is now. But if I, if I kind of open myself and give myself the intent of, you know, what, I’m just going to live my life the best I can, I’m going to be open, I’m going to let myself kind of, to listen what life is telling me. And as you learn to follow those cues, you find yourself exactly where you need to be at that, you know, at that time, I don’t want to pay too rosy a picture because life is difficult, and we have, you know, difficult things come our way. And sometimes, you know, traumatic things, you know, happened to us and we don’t understand why so, but like you say, having this mind that, you know this mindset of, you know, observing what happens to us and being being open. So that’s what like with the water to me is one of the biggest things that it’s taught me is to be open as I walk into that water, not to resist the cold, but to be open to the cold, to be receptive to the cold, you know, maybe the ocean wants to give me something, and I don’t know what it is. But I’m going to be open to that. And as I walk away from the beach after my swim, you know, I walk away with a gift, likewise and in life.

Michael Hingson  59:39
So what would you advise others or how would you advise others we’ve been talking about a lot of things with mindsets and so on and you you clearly have a very, I would say unstoppable, positive mindset about a lot of things but how, what kind of advice do you want to leave our listeners with we go forward,

Matt Wrock  1:00:02
I get so. So first of all, from the point like, so if you’re interested in like, I would love to see more people at the beach, you know that doing the same thing that I’m doing. Obviously, nobody wants to see crowds, I, I’m not really worried about that I don’t think that’s going to become a problem with, I want to make sure that I don’t leave this by kind of giving a little bit of advice to somebody that’s like, Hey, that sounds kind of interesting swimming at the beach. So my advice to that person would be one, start when I started, like, like, in that springtime, you know, start when it’s warm start when it’s the most, you know, honestly, palatable. To you go go to a beach that you feel comfortable with. So the beach that I go to, I’ve been going to since I was so bored, really my mom, but was body surfing at this beach, when she was pregnant with me the night before she went into labor. So the history of it, so I feel very comfortable. You know, go go find a group to swim with. And, and so just and just let yourself go out there and do it. And you know, and hopefully you enjoy it, you’ll love it. And you’ll want to you’ll, you’ll want to keep doing it. For the rest. You know, I like Like we said, like, there’s only so much coastline, some of us just don’t live. It’s just not practical, right? Like, if you live in Nevada, there’s not a lot of beach. And, you know, some people might have lakes, and there’s, you know, there’s, that’s all great, too. But yeah, you know, we’ve talked a lot about, you know, about meditation, I’ve found that to be very helpful. There’s tons of books and resources out there, you know, on a meditation on mindfulness, that, you know, I would encourage you to

Michael Hingson  1:01:49
look up. You have any, do you have any favorites?

Matt Wrock  1:01:53
I’m trying to think boy, I should have come up, I should have come more but more prepared. So Jon Kabat Zinn is a great resource, and he has kind of a lot of stuff like all that people think, you know, especially like if you if you’re not like me, you don’t come from a religious background. And, and, and religious terminology just is a real turnoff to you. Like I was like Jon Kabat Zinn, Kabat Zinn, you know, really has a good way of approaching, you know, mindfulness, as you know, this is this is something that’s a toolset that anybody can have that can that doesn’t have to be steeped in any kind of, you know, religious or, you know, supernaturally type of language. You know, it’s something very practical, and very down very down to earth.

Michael Hingson  1:02:40
Have you ever read a river? I think it’s Dan Harris. 10%. Happier?

Matt Wrock  1:02:45
I’ve heard of that. Yeah. But no, I haven’t I haven’t read that. Have you read that? Yeah.

Michael Hingson  1:02:50
And I would certainly urge people to consider reading that as as one book that talks about meditation, and it’s his life’s journey as well. But again, it’s not religion, it is really all about dealing with mindset dealing with mindfulness in a sense of connecting with yourself. It’s it’s a really good positive book that is an easy read and something that people can I think, find helpful if they’re willing or interested to explore it, it’s another way to go.

Matt Wrock  1:03:22
Cool, you’re off to check that out myself. On my, my audible. Yeah, I’m a big fan of it every once a while, like I said,

Michael Hingson  1:03:31
I should check that out. You can get thunder dog on Audible. By the way.

Matt Wrock  1:03:35
You know, I was seeing that today, as a matter of executing things. One of the things I love about audible is I like reading things that are read by the author. And, of course, I read a ton of stuff that’s not read by the author. But he just doesn’t you know, sometimes, especially if it’s not like, like a novel. I really like it to be read by the author. But the right, yeah, yeah.

Michael Hingson  1:04:00
Well, I want to thank you for being on unstoppable mindset today. And I think you’ve offered people a lot of useful information and some good advice and love the stories that that you told, Do you have a way of people want to reach out to you that they can maybe communicate with you and learn more from you and explore more of what you do?

Matt Wrock  1:04:25
Yeah, so I’m on Twitter. I’m mwrockx M W R O C K X I have a, I have a blog that I bought a case, I used to blog very regularly, you know, the technical blog, you know, for computer type stuff. But the last few years, I blogged more about the type of stuff that you and I have talked about, and that at mwrockx.medium.com You’ll see once more mwrockx M W R O C K X.medium.com So that’s You’ll find kind of more of my my non technical side there. In fact, if you Google, if you Google open water swimming in Dana Point, you’re likely to come upon a blog post that I wrote for I talked about this whole experience, which is called a year of open water swimming in Dana Point. And then you’ll hit some of my other stuff. 

Michael Hingson  1:05:22
You should write a book about it. 

Matt Wrock  1:05:24
Maybe someday.

Michael Hingson  1:05:26
If people want to email you, is there an email address? Or can they contact you, sir?

Matt Wrock  1:05:30
Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s matt@mattwrock.com and just always remember my last name starts with a W. So I was originally met, right? And my wife was, was Was her name was Mark. So we we can we combine the names into rock. So it’s Matt. M A T T at M A T T W R O C K.com. If you want to email me,

Michael Hingson  1:05:55
that’s great. Well, Matt, thank you very much for letting us have a chance to meet you and learn from you. And I hope people do learn. And we’ll take a lot of what you said to heart because I think you offer some great advice.

Matt Wrock  1:06:10
That was a super fun conversation, Michael, I really appreciate that. Doug, you need to talk

Michael Hingson  1:06:16
 you need to do it some more. Maybe one of these days, you can take a little computer out in the water with you and we can talk to you while you’re sweating, you know. Thanks very much. And if if you people are listening, we’d love you to give a five star rating for our podcast today. Wherever you’re hearing podcasts. If you’d like to reach out to me, I would appreciate hearing from you. You can reach me at Michaelhi M I C H A E L H I at accessibe A C C E S S I B E .com. And we’d love to hear your comments and thoughts. And Matt for you. And anyone who’s listening. If you can think of other people that we ought to talk with, I would appreciate any suggestions or connections? 

Matt Wrock  1:07:02
All right, we’ll do. 

Michael Hingson  1:07:03
Well. Thanks very much. And for all of you. We’ll see you next time on unstoppable mindset. 

UM Intro/Outro  1:07:12
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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