Episode 225 – Unstoppable Transformational Life Coach with Dr. Jonathan Marion

Posted April 23, 2024

Our guest this episode is Jonathan Marion. Dr. Jonathan Marion believes that when we LIVE, CONNECT, & COMMUNICATE authentically, we send out ripples…. which send out ripples…which make the world a more caring and connected place, one ripple at a time. Don’t you just love that belief? Jonathan grew up in the Boston Massachusetts area and then, after doing his undergraduate studies in California began to travel to several countries. He came back to the U.S. and attended UC San Diego where he received his Master’s degree and his PHD. He will tell us about that.

After learning a bit of Jonathan’s history he and I begin talking about his career and, specifically, why he left academia after 20 years to begin a fulltime coaching, consulting and speaking career. He and I discuss much about the kind of coaching he does and we talk about a number of lessons he gives that I think will benefit all of us. I hope you agree.

In addition to his other accomplishments Jonathan is an author. He also has a keen interest in dance. In fact, we found him in Portugal preparing for a dance festival and contest.

Jonathan offers many life thoughts and lessons during our hour together. I think you will find his discussion and thoughts down to Earth and useful. Please let me know your thoughts.

About the Guest:

Dr. Jonathan Marion believes that when we LIVE, CONNECT, & COMMUNICATE authentically, we send out ripples…. which send out ripples…which make the world a more caring and connected place, one ripple at a time. Having seen this dynamic over 20+ years as an award-winning cultural anthropology professor and author, Jonathan feels that how we show up is the key to living deeply meaningful and fulfilling lives – and now works as a transformational life coach, consultant, and speaker to be a catalyst for exactly such transformations.

Jonathan is passionate about supporting clients and audiences in transcending external accomplishments as measures of success to live truly aligned, rewarding, and meaningful lives. As a coach, consultant, and speaker, Jonathan draws on decades of experience teaching classes such as "Culture & Medicine" and "Body & Identity" to diverse audiences, has presented on "Coaching Beyond DEI" for the Fellows at the Institute of Coaching at McLean Hospital, Harvard Medical School, and is trained in Emotional Intelligence, Group Coaching, Positive Psychology Coaching, Clear Beliefs Coaching, and Body-oriented Coaching.

Overlapping his coaching and academic work in powerful and unexpected ways, Jonathan is also passionate about and has worked as a photographer and partnered dance instructor, now primarily focusing on Brazilian zouk.

Ways to connect with Dr.Jonathan :
Website: https://stepsalongtheway.global
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-s-marion/

About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson ** 01:21
Hi there, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Glad you’re with us really appreciate you taking the time to listen, hope you enjoy what you hear. And if you do, please give us a five star rating. And I’d love to hear your thoughts about it. Dr. Jonathan Marion believes that when we live, connect and communicate authentically, we send out ripples, which send out ripples. And that makes the world a better and more caring and connected place one ripple at a time, which is an interesting concept. And I can buy that. I’ve always believed that we plant seeds, but whether it’s seeds or ripples, that amounts to somewhat the same thing. And the idea is you you never know what’s going to happen from what you do. But when you’re doing it in a caring and connected and authentic way, it’s got to be a positive thing. And that helps make the world a better place. And Jonathan was a cultural anthropologist and still is trained as a cultural anthropologist. He’s now a life coach. And he’s also a guest here on unstoppable mindset. If you haven’t guessed. So Jonathan, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We’re glad you’re here.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 02:28
Thank you so much, Michael. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Michael Hingson ** 02:31
Well, lots obviously to think about and talk about, and we’ll get to a lot of it. But I’d like to start with what I always think is kind of fun. Tell us about the early Jonathan, you know, growing up in some of those things that kind of led you a little bit to where you are or where you started, or whatever.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 02:47
You’re, I had grown up just outside of Boston, Massachusetts, and sort of had one parent who was religiously observant, one who was more secular. And so I’ve sort of always lived somewhat in two different worlds. And I think that really set me up to then later on, as I went into academia, always be interested in social sciences. And just what did people think about and do the same and why and what did people think about and do differently and why. And then, after undergrad, I spent some time traveling, overseas, volunteered on a communal farm in Israel, traveled to several other countries. And when I got back to the States, and was starting to apply to different graduate programs, I ended up applying to eight schools. But after the fact, I realized it was an eight different disciplines and decided I needed a big umbrella. And that’s where cultural anthropology came in. And it seemed like the biggest umbrella to me. And always having that sort of living in two worlds insider and outsider perspective, really took me down that track of becoming a cultural anthropologist. And so where did you do your undergrad work? My undergrad was at the University of Redlands in California, and I doubled majored in psychology and political philosophy at the time.

Michael Hingson ** 04:14
Cool. Well, you were in a place that had pretty decent climate overall.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 04:22
Absolutely, I’m a sun worshiper and was happy to get out of New England as nice as it is culturally, weather wise Southern California suited me much better

Michael Hingson ** 04:32
it is I hear you living here having lived in winter mass for three years and spent a good amount of time in the Massachusetts area. Love it, appreciated the snow and then later I lived in New Jersey of course also but I like the the weather of California course. I’m still convinced that the best weather in the country of San Diego but everybody likes what they like.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 04:55
I have to agree with you about San Diego and that’s actually where I did both My masters and my PhD was at UC San Diego law. They’re in La Jolla. Yep, you got it. Yeah.

Michael Hingson ** 05:06
Which is a wonderful place to be. So you got your PhD in cultural anthropology when you’ve settled on your umbrella and discipline, which is pretty cool. And then what did you do?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 05:20
Yeah, so specifically, the PhD was a subfield of cultural anthropology with psychological anthropology. So that permeable border between personality and culture. And for about six years after that, I was working as contingent faculty teaching part time at multiple campuses in the San Diego area. And then a lot of my work ended up in the field of visual anthropology. So both studying visual phenomena and culture, everything from architecture to performances, but then also the use of visual media to convey understandings that weren’t amenable to words alone, and got hired as a visual anthropologist at the University of Arkansas, where I worked for over a decade before resigning from academia at the end of 22. Well, Arkansas

Michael Hingson ** 06:11
is quite the distance away from Southern California, different different weather,

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 06:17
different climates and multiple ways. Yeah,

Michael Hingson ** 06:20
well, that’s true. That is true. Definitely different climates and multiple ways. Well, so you decided in 2022, to leave academia? Why did you decide that?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 06:32
Yes, so the decision actually started back in 2019, it was the end of 22. When I actually resigned, I was for the first half of 2019, in Brazil, doing research on sabbatical. And one of my best friends who lives in Rio de Janeiro, I was staying at his house, and very generously, my friend Toronto gave me you know, a small bedroom to use while I was there. And I was sitting in his living room one day, and it’s not one of the touristy parts of Rio, it’s one of the areas where only, you know, local people live. And I realized I was living in a bedroom that was smaller than my closet at home. But I felt more at home. And I started to ask myself, What was that about? And I realized that my very good friends in Brazil knew what I did professionally. And they were proud of me, they were proud for me. But they didn’t really care. They loved me as Jonathan. And that was a type of connection and interpersonal warmth, that I was never going to get as long as I was in an arena where it was all about external accomplishments and achievements. And that’s what had me realized that I needed to start exploring other options outside of academia.

Michael Hingson ** 07:54
What was the significance of the small bedroom? Why did you feel comfortable? There? Are why was that significant?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 08:02
Yeah, so it was just on its own, it didn’t mean anything to me, I’ve traveled, you know, off and on throughout most of my life. And sometimes you have a big place, sometimes a little place. But it was just recognizing that it wasn’t about the external measure, it was, this is a very small, humble bedroom, that smaller than the closet of my master suite at my own house. And yet, I feel more at home in this small space. But because of the quality of the relationships, it wasn’t about the space, it was about the place that was made by the relationships that were there.

Michael Hingson ** 08:37
Make sense? And then, of course, surrounding yourself, or having the opportunity to be surrounded by people who really care about you, who value you has to be something that’s extremely positive and brings a lot of joy and a lot of comfort in a lot of ways.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 08:57
Absolutely. And it was part of the thinking then of, you know, what are the options, I have to live in a way where that’s what’s prioritized, and not the you know, sort of publish or perish paradigm? Yeah, in academia in a tenure track position with tenure by that point. And I didn’t want to be living in a setting where it was just about what are your latest, you know, publications and presentations, and funding, and just those external measures of worth?

Michael Hingson ** 09:35
Yeah. And it’s so unfortunate that we put so much emphasis on a lot of those things. It goes beyond just academia and so on. I know many people who talk about companies and talk about the businesses they were in I actually had a chance recently to talk to a man who is was a hotelier for 25 years. And he talks now about the time of the pandemic, and what has happened to hotels and the travel and tourist industry since then. And he said, it’s gotten very cold, people don’t value things the same way. It’s all about how much money are we pulling in. And that’s all there is to it, rather than necessarily putting as much emphasis on the guest as we used to, or even more important, putting as much emphasis on the employees as we used to. So he’s actually creating a new structure, that he wants to start in the hotel industry, that would create an environment where the employees, assuming a particular hotel, under this umbrella would would profit that the employee should get part of the profits. And so he wants to institute a profit sharing thing, just kind of amazed me that I hadn’t ever heard of that in the hotel industry as such before, don’t know whether it ever was there. But his point was, people are going to be a lot more fun, people are going to be a lot more joyous and make guests feel more welcome. If they’re feeling welcome and a part of what they’re doing.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 11:12
Absolutely, it’s the basic idea of you know, if people are proud of what they do happy about what they do invest in what they do. For them, it’s employment, but they’re the ones who are actually providing the experience directly to the guests.

Michael Hingson ** 11:29
Yeah, I mean, it’s a job, yes, it’s a job. But it can either be a fun job and a job you like, or it’s just a job that brings in money, which means that you’re not putting the same amount of commitment and, and joy and love into it. Absolutely, which is, you know, something that makes a lot of sense to understand. Well, so you decided to take the plunge and leave academia and do what?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 11:57
So I thought about it. And at least in the model in the United States, as a tenured faculty member, 40% of your job is research. And it was like, okay, I’m good at academic research and publishing, but I don’t love it. So I don’t want to do that. 20% is professional service. So professional leadership. And you know, I’ve been President of national organizations good at it, but I don’t love it. And 40% is teaching. Within that, though, so much of it is following the sort of top down assigned learning outcomes and things like that. And the part of teaching that I always loved was the informal parts, the 15 minutes before or after class where students had their own questions about how different ideas we were talking about applied in their lives, or to circumstances they had heard about, or working with my graduate students, my MA and my PhD students, where I don’t run a lab, it’s not about you’re doing a sub project of mine, it’s, I’m helping you figure out what are your questions, and how you’re going to find answers for yourself to your own questions. And the more I thought about that, that was life coaching. So I’ve ended up shifting over into the space of transformational life coaching, consulting and speaking as a result.

Michael Hingson ** 13:23
You know, I’ve been in sales. Basically, most all of my adult life, I learned a lot about sales from a Dale Carnegie sales course that I needed to take, because I had been given a choice of leaving a company from doing non sales type stuff, either leaving the company or going into sales, and, as a result, wanting to learn about it. And what I learned is that the best salespeople really are teachers. And what that means is that they love what they do, but they also know that they have to oftentimes teach customers, what they’re selling, and why they’re selling it. And even analyze, does that product work for you, and also having the courage oftentimes to be honest enough to say, that won’t work, or this is, why it will or whatever. And I find that to be the most rewarding thing that I’ve ever been able to do in sales. And of course, since September 11, now I get to sell life and philosophy. So it still amounts to the same thing, but now selling the concepts from the other side, but I hear exactly what you’re saying about teaching and the real important parts of teaching and we, we put so many stringent requirements that don’t really add a lot of value, that it makes it a lot more difficult. One of the things that I’ve learned as a manager is my best job as a manager is not to boss somebody around, but rather how can I add value to make sure that You are being as successful as you can be. And we have to figure out ways to work together. And I found that the salespeople who really got that concept, were very successful because we’ve had off each other, we worked together, I added value to what they did, the people who didn’t get it, and who wouldn’t be open to maybe looking at doing some things differently that might have enhanced them didn’t succeed nearly as well. And again, it’s all about teaching.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 15:25
Makes total sense to me. So

Michael Hingson ** 15:27
it was, it was a lot of fun to do. So you’ve just been doing coaching for this year, basically,

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 15:35
I had actually started doing it within the last few years of being in academia, it was just that I was also still working as an academic through the end of 22. And so now full time, I’m doing the coaching and consulting and speaking on related topics.

Michael Hingson ** 15:57
Where’s home for you now?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 15:59
Actually, since beginning of 21, no beginning of 20. Yeah, beginning of 22. Sorry, I’ve been a full time nomad. Okay. So I, because I’m now doing the coaching and not the academics, I don’t have to be in one location. And so taking advantage of that to get to travel a lot more, especially as I’d mentioned before that in the first half of 22, I’d been down in Brazil, doing research. And also part of my research was on the dance form of Brazilian Zouk. But then, in November of 2019, I’d had a bad spinal injury and nerve damage. And for five weeks, I couldn’t even roll over on a side. I mean, I was close to paralyzed. And I was just starting to walk unassisted again when the pandemic hit. And so as someone who used to always travel and used to be very involved in movement, once I had the opportunity to not be tied down to the location of the university, I’ve really been traveling a lot to get back into dancing and training and just interacting with people in different places. And a way that I wasn’t able to when I was linked to a job that was very location based.

Michael Hingson ** 17:21
So you don’t really have a formal house or anything at this point. Nope, have

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 17:26
nots. In almost two years right now, I will actually be aiming to return to having a home base somewhere, probably in the second quarter of 24. And looking to relocate my home base actually over to Portugal.

Michael Hingson ** 17:47
Not Santiago, but that’s okay. Yeah, but

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 17:50
if you look at, you know, geographic parallels southern Portugal, the Algarve is basically the San Diego region of the European continent. So that works for me.

Michael Hingson ** 18:03
I’ve not been to Portugal, I’ve been to Spain, but not to Portugal. But I understand what you’re saying. But I love San Diego still so much. I, I was a nomad a little bit for a job back in 1976, because I was hired to work with the National Federation of the Blind and Ray Kurzweil and developing a reading machine for the blind. And literally, I lived out of suitcases in hotels for 18 months to work at various sites. So I’m familiar with the concept. I think that doesn’t work for me as much. Now I like to be in one spot. And I think for me, probably a good thing with all the things going on. And the fact that the pandemic is still around, it’s good to be able to lock down in a comfortable place. But again, that’s me. And that’s now a long time later from what I did before. But I uproot, but I appreciate the fun and the value of

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 18:59
it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there’s part of me that again, it’s probably linked to the cultural anthropology, like I do, like just encountering people where they live and I don’t love doing the travel version, where I just hit tourist sites, I like to actually, you know, sort of situate myself where local people live and spend, you know, a couple of weeks there and just really get the feel of what is life like here and that just I find that very interesting and enriching, rewarding to just start to understand what it’s like for people in different locations. And what did people still think about and do in similar ways and what in different ways, and that they all make sense.

Michael Hingson ** 19:45
As a public speaker, I have always enjoyed times when I could interact with people, not just who set up an event but really talk with the people in the area where the events taking place. And again, not the tourist as you point out, but the people who live there. And I’ve learned to value, for example, every part of this country, because I find that if you’re friendly to people, again, going back to the ripple concept, if you connect in our friendly, I find that people are in fact, once I spent time in New York over several months, a number of times, and I was it was back when 42nd street and all the area around times square wasn’t as nice as it is today. And people would say to me, aren’t you worried about being outside? And I go, why? Uh, well, you know, there are some not nice people, I said, Well, only if you don’t treat them nicely. And I found that I personally was able to get along with everyone. I never did get up to Harlem and spend time there, although I still would like to do that. But I’ve been to some pretty rough areas, and I find that people aren’t going to bother you and be obnoxious to you, if you don’t bother them or not obnoxious to them. And if you treat them well, they’re going to treat you well. I’ve always believe that.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 21:12
I think you know, in general, that’s so true in general. Yeah, no, I mean, obviously, everywhere, there are exceptions, as a way of going about things that makes so much sense to me. And just going back to that ripples idea. So many of us have heard of ROI, as you know, return on investment, the version that I heard that’s always resonated for me is ripples of impact. So whatever I’m doing, however, I’m showing up, I’m looking for ripples of impact. And with that idea of, you know, it then impacts other people and who knows what ripples they then send out and how that impacts other people. And that’s why I think that’s so important for creating a more caring and connected world.

Michael Hingson ** 21:59
And it is about caring, and showing that you care. And showing that you care is an enlarged part of how you treat people and how you act and react around people. It isn’t something where you got to show great care by giving a Contribution to somebody for $1,000 or something, it really still gets down to basically connection, doesn’t it? Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that makes a lot more sense. So what do you do now? In terms of your job as a transformational life coach and consultant? And what do you speak about? Probably all related?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 22:36
Yep, absolutely. I primarily work with professionals who are accomplished by external measures, but find themselves wanting to live connect and communicate more authentically, in order to live more meaningful and fulfilling lives. And this really goes back to that idea that how we show up matters, and whether as individuals or as groups, communities, organizations, and so now I do my work as a coach, consultant speaker to really be a catalyst for exactly such transformations.

Michael Hingson ** 23:13
So where do you speak,

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 23:17
really anywhere that people are interested. So it’s been to some nonprofits, it’s been in house, to some different organizations, it’s been at a couple of retreats. And if people find the topics, or subjects that I am interested in and feel like I can really add some value as compelling for them, then I don’t want to just go around and repeat my message, I want to find out, how will it be valuable and most valuable to you and your people or your audiences, and to really try and tailor it accordingly.

Michael Hingson ** 24:03
And I think that’s the only way to really be a successful speaker. As I tell people when they’re talking to me about speaking somewhere, I customize every talk, I really want to know what you’re looking for What messages do you want to send, because I think it’s extremely important not to get locked into just giving some speech every time. Everyone wants to hear the September LeBrons story. But what I get to do is surround that with content that’s specifically relevant and I think that’s the only way to do it. Absolutely. And it’s more fun.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 24:40
Absolutely, because I already know my own stories and my own background, and I get bored if I’m just repeating it as if it’s, you know, rote memorization, but when it’s how can I meet you where you are and share what I have to share in a way that actually matters and has an impact for you. That’s why I’m doing it, it’s not to hear myself say the same thing again. Yeah.

Michael Hingson ** 25:04
And there are going to be parts of it, that will be saying the same thing again. But it’s more fun when you can put it in a context that people appreciate. I love to know that I’m drawing an audience in. And I’ve learned in my speeches, to sometimes use some specific kinds of things that have taught me when I say something, if the audience is really connected, they’ll react in a certain way. And when I hear that, then I know I’m really connected. And if I don’t hear that, then I need to go figure out what to change as I’m talking with them to draw them in. Because I think we don’t talk or we shouldn’t view ourselves as talking to an audience. We should be talking with an audience. Absolutely. And it’s a different context. But it was always the same way. For me when I was teaching in academic settings. I was never someone who wanted to stand in front of a classroom and just, you know, essentially project Yeah, profess information. It was, you know, how can I meet you where you are, and ignite your passion and figure out where I can add value by helping you understand more than you could on your own? Not just delivering content? It’s adding value once again. Absolutely. I had a calculus professor who came in every day, and he just started writing on the board. And he said, From this, we get, and it turned out that what he was really doing was just parroting what was in the book was calculus and analytic, analytic geometry by Thomas. Anyway, he just parroted the book. And he mostly just wrote on the board, and I counted one day, he said, 50 words during the whole class. And every time when he wasn’t saying anything, I’d raised my hand. And I kept saying, Would you, please describe more of what you’re doing, and it was like pulling teeth to get him to do it. But as the year went on, he got a little bit better. And students in the class that was freshman college, students were mocking him, one guy brought in a helium balloon with a paperclip. So he could put it at a height and he would just push it up in front of the professor. And the professor turns around, and this balloons right in front of him, and he’s lecturing to the balloon doesn’t even react to it, and other things happen during the class. But I got him finally to do more talking than he did at the beginning. And then at the end of the year, I passed, I got an A in calculus, but he called me into his office, and I’m going, Oh, what happened? Now? I go in, and he said, I gotta tell you, I really appreciate you and what you did, because I could not understand why students were really not interested in what I had to say. And he said, I realized that I wasn’t talking. I wasn’t engaging with them. And when I started doing that, it made a world of difference. And it does, it’s all about connecting again. And so yeah, it’s it’s again, it’s kind of one of those things. So what kind of clients do you get? And kind of? What have you been able to do? I’d love to hear a story about how you’ve helped change someone in the way they work.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 28:16
Sure. So again, I primarily work with people who are accomplished by external measures. And so accomplished could mean anything, because it could be anyone from a school teacher to a CEO, I’m just talking about in whatever field they are. If you look at it as an outsider, you say, yeah, they’re good at what they do. They’re, you know, not someone who’s just breaking into the field or switching. And it’s sort of what I lived myself, right. I was accomplished in academia. I was award winning, you know, author and lecturer. But it wasn’t something where I truly felt like I was leading a meaningful and fulfilling life. And so I think, a lot of coaching, you know, when it’s done well, you’re speaking from your own experience in your own journey, probably most good speaking as well. And so a great example. Charles Davidson is the founder of a nonprofit, which is now rebranded and that came about through my coaching with him. It had a different name before but it’s now innovations and peacebuilding International. And in coaching with him, we really got a lot of clarity about, you know, what he was doing as an academic, what he was doing with his nonprofit, where things were in his personal life and what were the things that really mattered to him. And he just got so much clearer on, you know, where he was, where he wanted to be, how he wanted to get there, what he needed to do to start that we base simply did a six month coaching engagements. And part of my calling myself a transformational life coach is, I’m not looking to be your coach for two or three years. I’m always available to you for support at any point. But I want to equip you to change things to transform, and be able to go forth on your own. And so when I followed up with him three months after we finished our coaching engagement, he told me that they had three times as much in the bank for the nonprofit, as they had when we started. He and I never talked about money strategies. That’s not what I coach on. But he got so much clarity about what he was doing that he restructured the board, he renamed the nonprofit. And then when I followed up with him later, a year after we finished, they had 10 times in the bank, we also never spoke about physical fitness. I’m not a coach for that. But when I talked to him, at the end of our engagement, he said he dropped 15 pounds, just because he was so clear on what he was doing the life he wanted to live, what mattered to him, that it just happened. And so those are the types of transformations that I really am always looking to make. And it’s not to say that the results will be the same for everyone. But if I can really walk beside you holding a flashlight to help you decide which direction you want to go, then that’s what my job is. Yeah.

Michael Hingson ** 31:30
And that makes so much sense. And the issue really is that you need to if you’re being coached, or if you’re looking at yourself, it’s important to really look at yourself and to think about what you’re doing, and do self analysis. Because even you as a coach, you can’t change someone, they have to do it, they have to want to do it. But all you can do is to help show them the way but it all comes down to it seems to me that, that you have to as the individual involved, look at yourself, do some introspection, and make some decisions as to how to move forward. And that’s something as you say, you don’t always get the same results from people. But I would suspect a lot of times if it doesn’t work out? Well. It’s because they don’t catch on to doing real self introspection and self examination.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 32:22
Absolutely. And so the parallel I gave earlier to working with, you know, especially say my PhD students, my job is to help you get clarity on what are your questions to help you get clarity on? How are you going to find answers to your own questions. And so it’s the same thing as a life coach, I’m helping you figure out what are the things that you really want to figure out for yourself? And how are you going to go about doing that for yourself? If I just give you a paint by numbers? What what do you care about that? Why should you care about that? It’s nice, but it’s nothing about what matters to you.

Michael Hingson ** 33:01
Right? And you won’t progress and you won’t value it. And even if something sort of accidentally happens, and you’re sitting there going, well. Why did that happen? What what accidentally made that happen, and you don’t catch on to what really is involved. And what’s really important,

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 33:19
is exactly your life isn’t transformed, which means I really haven’t done that much to support you as a person. And

Michael Hingson ** 33:27
that doesn’t mean that it’s your fault as the coach, if someone isn’t really willing to take the time to think and analyze for themselves. And I am such a fan of introspection, I think that people should take time every evening before they fall asleep to think about themselves in their lives and what they did today, how did this go? Why could this have been better? Or could it have been better and all of that? If we really take a hard look, it isn’t such a hard look, once you really start to practice it.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 34:00
That’s quite true. And at the same time, I’m not the best coach for every person, right? We all have different styles. And so I want to have a conversation, whether it as a coach, whether I’m a consultant for you, whether I’m a speaker, if your organization is actually a good fit, and let’s make sure that you have the best fit for you the same as I want that for myself.

Michael Hingson ** 34:25
So, I’m assuming that there are probably times that you felt you weren’t the best fit for someone, do you help them find another coach or how does that work? Absolutely. So

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 34:35
if I know someone in my network, who I think might be a better fit, than I absolutely make the direct recommendation, if I don’t, but I know someone who might I ask if they want me to inquire and if either they don’t or I don’t know someone then I explained to them and describe to them what I think it sounds like they’re looking for and any leads They have any suggestions for where they might be better suited to find someone who I think will actually support them?

Michael Hingson ** 35:07
Again, they have to really want to do it. But you don’t have control over that. No. Which is, which is understandable? Well, you know, in, in our world today, we have a lot of social pressure to achieve and be successful. And whatever that may mean, but how do we deal with the reorg? How can we reorganize and change what we do to deal with all of the social pressures? And you talked about that in terms of what you had to do as an academic and the pressures that were there with publisher perish and other things like that? How do we change that?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 35:53
Yeah, so I think there’s two really important pieces to that. And I thank you for the question. So I think the first piece that is really important is to understand that as human beings, we only have one nervous system. And it was one that was evolved to deal with, you know, short term, high stakes, life and death types of threats. And so, you know, fight or flight, or then if you’ve had in the freeze or fawn responses, you know, those are all evolutionarily developed to deal with major confrontational situations, like, you know, go around the corner, and there’s a big barrier there. Well, yeah, that gives you this huge spike of all these stress hormones, so that you can respond and deal with it. But the situation then resolves itself, and then all of those hormones can drain out of your system. Whereas the things that we get stressed about today, are ongoing. They’re the traffic, there’s the competing pressures between different relationship responsibilities and work responsibilities, and coworkers who may or may not be doing what you think they’re part of a project is, and so when do we ever have a chance for that to all sort of dissipate? And we really don’t? And I think that that’s a large part of the problem. And so then how do we reorient and focus, I think, is about shifting from concentrating on, you know, achieving from the what, from the doing to the how in the being. And so an expression I heard when I was younger, that has always stuck with me, is life is only 10%, how we make it, but it’s 90%, how we take it. And I think we can always ask and choose how we want to be whether more generally such as if I take this job, how do I want to be in this job? If I have these people in my social network? How do I want to be with them? Or it can be in a given moment or situation such as, how do I want to be in this given conversation in this given negotiation. And that’s something we can always choose?

Michael Hingson ** 38:20
Interesting way to put it in that it is a choice. There’s so much social pressure to do and achieve and so on. Typically, why does that cost so much stress? And we put ourselves in that position, a lot of the time, why does it cost so much stress?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 38:38
Yeah, so again, I think that goes back to the fact that there isn’t a secondary nervous system for social pressure. And so we don’t have a second nervous system. That’s different for the ongoing lower stakes social interactions. And as such, we have this constant pressure of doing an achieving that leaves our brains swimming in this stew of stress hormones. And again, it doesn’t dissipate, if there’s a big bear. Either I get away, I bonk it on the head with a rock, I freeze and it loses interest. And then all of that goes out of my system. And we don’t have that. And I also think this is where the issue of social support versus access starts to show up as very narrow models of what counts as achieving get used very indiscriminately. So you’ve spoken about some of this dynamic before and that you know, what counts is a disability is actually a social issue. So why for instance, is it a disability when someone in a wheelchair can’t reach something on a high shelf unassisted? But it’s not a disability when it’s a young child unable to reach the same item or a sharp person? Sure, absolutely. And the point is that it’s really, you know, what are the frameworks because as human beings, we’re social organisms, we’re social beings. And so do we actually feel like we belong, like there’s support, like there’s allowances, or not. And so a great example of this from my former career in cultural anthropology comes from an ethnographic film, the bird dancer, and the film showcased is ghostie, you sort of teeny, who’s a young Balinese woman with what we in the West would label as Tourette syndrome. And as the film shows, so powerfully, the actual cause of her suffering is not her symptoms, but it’s the attitudes of those around her who feel she should be different. And I think that’s really the key to this. Anytime you have a should you’re fighting with what is. And so I think if anytime, we can catch ourselves saying should weather about, I should work out more, I should eat healthier, my boss should recognize my work, my partner should acknowledge my contributions. If we just replaced that with could, I could eat healthier, I could work out more, my boss could recognize my efforts. I could have my efforts recognized by my partner, then we can say, okay, but am I or am I not? And then I can choose how I want to be coming back to that issue of

Michael Hingson ** 41:33
choice. And you can also say, Okay, I can’t do that I could do that. How do I do it? And it gets back to analysis and examination again?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 41:43
Absolutely. And it goes back to that how versus just the what?

Michael Hingson ** 41:47
Now, I’m not an expert on bears, but my mindset and my mental attitude also says, gee, is there any chance to become friends with the bear? And I don’t know the answer to that.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 42:03
I don’t either. And again, I’m talking at the very general level about what is our nervous system primed for that said, you know, if it’s a bear that’s grown up around humans who are not a threat to it, then chances are that it’s not going to be that dangerous, unless it’s provoked.

Michael Hingson ** 42:25
Or unless you just exude fear and animal sense that, and then the result is that that has some impact on it, I don’t know. But I would presume that it’s possible to become friends with a baron. Likewise, what it also means is, when you come across these things that are just overwhelming, you can learn and choose to let it overwhelm you or take a more strategic approach. I’m writing a new book, it’s called Live like a guide dog, and it’s about my growing up, and being surrounded by dogs. Basically, most all of my life, I started when I’m 14 with my first guide, dog, Squire. And it’s about lessons I’ve learned. Because I realized at the beginning of 2020, I talked a lot about the past about the World Trade Center, and escaping without being afraid, but I’ve never really taught anyone how to do that. And so this book is going to start to work to teach people how to control fear, and how to use fear as a very powerful tool to assist you rather than allowing yourself to be as I say it blinded by or overwhelmed by fear.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 43:46
Nice, that sounds super interesting. I look forward to reading it.

Michael Hingson ** 43:49
It’ll be out next July or August. It’s we’ve got a publisher, and they’ve been working on it. And we’ve even gone through the copy editing and all that. And there’s another round coming up of that. But it’s, it’s kind of fun. And every time we get the book back, they either have questions, or we find a few little things to tweak. That’s okay. I understand that’s part of the publishing process. We did that with underdog when wrote that in 2011. But fear is is a very powerful tool that can be the bear or it can be a nice, friendly puppy dog. That nevertheless, can be something that you have to deal with, but you can which will be kind of fun to you know, to get through. So in general, how would you advise people or what would you advise people about dealing with the overwhelming kinds of conditions and stresses that we face? How do you help people change what they do and become more able to cope with that?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 44:56
Yeah, so I really sort of break it down in my head to sort of three categories. And so the first one I had mentioned briefly, which is I think it’s so important to start with what actually is. So not the stories we tell ourselves not the internalized projections. But so first and the one I already mentioned is could not should, because again, anytime I’m saying something should be a certain way, I’m fighting with what actually is. The second one is recognizing responsibility, and not blame. So for example, if someone’s supposed to pick up their kids at school, but there’s, you know, an accident and they can’t get there, they’re not to blame for not picking up their kids. But that doesn’t mean they’re not responsible. So then they need to make some phone calls and arrange for it to happen. And so I think all too often when we’re dealing with, whether it’s other people, or even how we talk to ourselves, we always go to blame. And that’s not constructive versus responsibility, which then invites. Okay, so now what do I need to do or what needs to happen. And the third part of that, starting with what is framework is interest, not intention. And I’m not talking about for ourselves, it’s one thing to have an intention of, here’s what I want to do, here’s how I want to show up. When we’re dealing with other people, if we’re dealing with them with an intention of how they’re going to respond, that’s not fair, because they’re going to respond however they do. And if it’s, I’m going to show up in the way I want to, I’m going to do what I think is appropriate, or is authentic to me, and I’m interested to see what comes from that I’m interested where that takes us, that’s very different from I have an intention for how someone else is going to respond, or how a situation is going to unfold. So those are the three parts for me of starting with what is the next part of the mental, you know, sort of model I use is the strategic level. And I use Bing as an acronym, and happy to go into any of it in more detail. But just to sort of give the umbrella level view, the first part, B of B for being is begin where you are. And I think all too often, people sort of rushed to where do they want to go? Well, you can’t navigate on a map, if you don’t know where you’re starting your GPS can’t guide you anywhere, if it doesn’t have a signal that it can pinpoint where you are to begin with. E is for explore where you want to go. Because it’s one thing to sort of say, oh, yeah, I’m gonna apply for the promotion. But why is it really what’s going to suit you, maybe it’s gonna give you more money, but does it take more time. So you can’t actually spend the money for save the time with family, which is what you really wanted, right? The AI is for investigate your options. Because once you know where you are, and you know where you want to go, there’s never just one way to get there. What are the different ways to get there, which ones have served you in the past, which ones appeal to you now, and really investigate that so that you figure out what’s the best way for you. And is for now start because I think all too often we get trapped with trying to make sure it’s all planned out perfectly. And and think about like the book you were just describing and I’ve you know, written books as well, if you wait for it to be perfect before you submit it to a publisher, it’ll never get published. It’s you start it, you get it to a point, you send it out. And then it’s an iterative process to, to hone it in to be the best. And so starting is so important. And especially with the pressure to achieve the trap of perfectionism, so often prevents people from even starting. And the g of being is get your best life. And I don’t mean that everything’s done and it’s complete. But all too often we’re so busy chasing and trying to achieve that we don’t actually recognize the changes we’ve made. We don’t appreciate what we’ve learned along the way and how we’re now equipped to always do that for ourselves going forward. So that’s the second one, the strategic level. And the third and final part I use as sort of the tactical one. And it’s the simple question, which I mentioned before of how do I want to be as a question because again, I can ask it, you know, bigger Situations, Relationships overall, I can ask it regarding this very conversation. And every once in a while life is so overwhelming or this stakes are so high emotionally, that even that gets challenging. And then I turned to a version of it that I labeled future casting. And so we’ve all had that situation where whether it’s two hours from now, two weeks, two months, I go, Oh, I wish I had said I wish I had done. And so when it’s really overwhelming, I asked myself, Okay, what does five year for me, Jonathan, wish I would have said or done right now? When I look back on this in the future, how will I have wanted to respond? And it may not be easy to do. But it’s usually pretty simple to figure out. And once I know what that is, then that’s what I do. And that’s what I coach people. So start with what is strategically use the being model and then tactically, how do I want to be in future cast if necessary?

Michael Hingson ** 50:52
You ever get people who say, Gee, that sounds like a lot of work? And it’s pretty complicated.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 51:00
Yes, ish. When you’re just talking to people about like, what’s involved, then sure I get that. But the whole point is, it’s not, I write down a list of these things right handed to you and say, Come talk to me and half a year, it’s, here’s the model we’re going to be following. But again, it’s a model, it’s a map, it doesn’t mean that you’re locked into anything. It’s a framework. And just like any really expert cook, you know, they do it sort of on the fly, they know all of the strategies, but they can combine things on the spot. It’s not No, I have to absolutely, you know, follow the written version through and through every single time. That’s not the point. And so it’s here’s the model, but we’re going to spend the time I’m going to be walking beside you shining that flashlight on each piece of this, so that you can just concentrate on figuring it out. I’m the one who has to hold the model in mind, I’m the one who has to make sure that it’s working for you. And that we take longer where you need longer to process, and that the parts that you fly through, we don’t stay spending time just because it’s in the model.

Michael Hingson ** 52:21
What do you find, though, for people who follow the model who work with you, and you coach, as you go forward, and the more time you spend with them does adhering to the model or properly utilizing the model becomes easier for them because they’re developing the muscle?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 52:42
Absolutely. And again, it’s an acronym to make it easy to remember. And you know, it’s up. The being one is up on my website. And you know, it’s something we talk about. But again, if that language doesn’t work for them, I don’t care. It’s not about the actual wording. It’s just a framework, if they want to call it something else in their head, and that’s what works for them. Then in our interactions, I’m going to use their language, I’m going to use sure if a framework works for them. It’s just something that was really resonant for me. And the vast majority of people who I work with, they like it, and it has some resonance for them. But again, it’s only a model, it’s not anything that’s cast in stone, it’s not the answer to anything, right?

Michael Hingson ** 53:36
It’s not the model. It’s the concept. And it’s However, anyone does it, it’s it’s still finding the way to get to address the issues that the model essentially brings up, whether you call it the model or use the language or whatever, it’s still basically dealing with the concepts that you’re trying to get people to understand. And, and analyze and do something with, right?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 54:07
Absolutely. And I think as a general framework, it makes sense to people like you begin where you are, you figure out where you want to go, you figure out how you’re gonna get there. Once you have that you actually have to start. And the whole point is to get where you’re going. Like, yeah, that’s pretty easy.

Michael Hingson ** 54:23
Yeah. It’s a concept and it makes perfect sense. So however, people want to phrase it and everybody likes to use their own words. So a lot of people do. That’s okay. As you said, it’s still the basic concept that you’re really addressing.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 54:37
Absolutely.

Michael Hingson ** 54:39
So having been in the anthropology, academia world for a long time, how does that work into what you’re doing now as a life coach?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 54:51
Yeah, it’s really interesting because it informs it in ways that I didn’t even realize it was going to when I was first training you As a coach, the one way that I think it shows up more than any other is, as a cultural anthropologist, when I go to study, you know, different cultural groups. The whole point is, I’m not the expert. I’m there to be a student and learn from them. Why they do things the way they do, how do they think about it? What does that framework do for them? And so that’s what I do as a coach at an individual level. That’s what I do as a consultant. With organizations, I’m not the expert in you, you’re the expert and you, I’m here to learn, what’s your framework, what’s your model, and then just have the ability as an outsider to reflect that back, so that you can use that however you want to. So that’s the biggest way. The next one is the idea of ethnocentrism. And so many people have heard of it. And there’s sort of the popular version of taking for granted that your way is the best. Well, that’s a problematic version. But it’s not the most problematic because it’s acknowledging that other people have other ways of thinking about and doing things. The insidious version is taking for granted, that your way of thinking about things or doing things is the only possibility. And so I can the same way as I would teach, you know, students about ethnocentrism, I can do the same thing with different clients, it’s, well, maybe the way you think about it isn’t the best maybe the way you think about it isn’t the only one. I’m not trying to present any other specific version, but just give that framework for maybe there are other ones, which then comes up to that idea of cultural relativism, which is that how different people think about and do things is what makes sense from within their own framework. And I think the underlying idea here is no one on the planet wakes up in the morning, and says, This makes no sense. I’m going to do it that way. They may think the options that they are aware of are all bad ones, but they’re still picking the one that they think is least bad. And so it’s understanding that there is a logic to what everyone does. And so if rather than coming with an accusatory How could you think that I can do it from genuine curiosity of how can you think that because there’s clearly a way to do it, then I can understand different frameworks, and take them as seriously as the ones I’m more familiar with. And I can work with you to help you be able to do that as well. The next one is sort of the holistic perspective, which is nothing is in isolation. Nothing is divorced from everything else. It’s not necessarily connected to everything, but it’s part of a bigger picture. And so while one thing may be troubling you or there may be one area in your life that you’re looking to, you know, adjust or there may be one part of the business that doesn’t seem to quite be coming together the way you want. The fact is, it’s still linked to other ones, and let’s look at where it fits in. So that we’re really addressing the whole system and not just a piece in isolation. And the next one would be the idea of generalizations versus stereotypes. And I take this from a medical anthropologist, Marianne Galante, who the human brain recognizes patterns. That’s part of what we’re good at. But the difference that she’s drawing is, a stereotype is saying, I know something about you. And that’s the end of what I am thinking, I think I then know everything. A generalization is saying, Oh, I know something, I recognize a pattern. It’s the beginning, I asked, might this be applicable to you? So say, someone who’s a patient in a hospital setting? And I know their religious background, rather than saying, Oh, you’re from this background, therefore, I know what your dietary restrictions are. I say, Oh, I see you’re from this background, are these restrictions are actually things that we need to look at for you. And so it’s using it as a beginning point, not as an ending point. And the final one would be around different types of isms. And you know, people can have prejudice in every single direction. But the idea is that there’s a difference between just having prejudices versus prejudices plus power. And so really recognizing power differentials. And you know, how those show up are things that especially with some of my consulting work, I can really lie you know, rely on my anthropology background to help, you know, point out where those things may be exerting an influence in ways that not everyone is aware of and therefore they can be much more intentional about how they’re actually interacting with people and showing up and enter and you know, doing things.

Michael Hingson ** 1:00:10
I love being a student. And I feel that if I ever stop learning, then there’s something wrong with me. And I love asking questions. And as I tell people in the sales world, I never liked to ask close, close ended questions. It always has to be open ended questions I don’t like yes and no answers to things because I want more information. And I think it’s important to always look that way. So I, I resonate with the things that you’re saying, which are, I believe, really pretty cool. You mentioned disabilities earlier, which prompts something that I’m sure you’ve heard me talk about on some of the episodes you listen to tell me a little bit about diversity. And you talk about coaching beyond diversity? What do you think about diversity as a cultural anthropologist, and why do you talk about coaching beyond that?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 1:01:02
Absolutely. So I think we actually share some objectives on this. And so while I’m a cultural anthropologist, it’s still under the larger umbrella of anthropology. And so I really want to borrow from some of the Biological anthropologists here. And so I look at human diversity the same way I do biological, the same way I look at biological diversity, it just is, it’s a fact it exists. And then the question is, where do we go from there? Do we think and act in ways that appreciate respect and honor diversity? Or do we take it for granted ignore it, or even worse, denigrate or degrade it? So just as you can’t grow every plant in the same conditions, not all people thrive in the same conditions, and just as bright direct light on one plant, you know, it needs to thrive with harm and other, so too, with any one size fits all approach to people. And so because of your work in this space, I’m sure you’ve heard, you know, the different versions of te di D, B be the one that I heard that made the most sense to me, and that I work with, and that I’m sort of referencing when I talk about coaching beyond diversity is JT di, or Jedi? And so growing up when I did, you know, the Jedi were the defenders of what was right in the universe. And the j stands for justice. And it’s just what is the right thing to do. And it’s about valuing and protecting all. And it’s not, you know, PC for the sake of saying it. And one of the things I really, I’m not saying there’s no value to it, but I really do get upset by it at the same time, is when I hear people talk about the positive business outcomes of being more aware and sensitive to these issues. Not that that doesn’t matter. Not that those things aren’t true. But I don’t think the reason to take these things seriously is because of business outcomes alone, that should be a byproduct. If it’s not about what’s the just thing to do in the first place, then I think we have a bigger problem we need to address address as a society. The ie of Chad, I would be for equity, which is really the opposite of a one size fits all approach. So the same way as we don’t grow, you know, all plants in the same environment. Rather, we look at what combination of soil type amount of sunlight and water each needs to thrive, we need to do the same thing for people. And all of that is about recognizing that diversity just is and so we need to respect and honor it. And if we do all of those things correctly, that’s where we get to inclusion. And so where diversity is about recognizing uniqueness. Inclusion is about belonging. It’s about recognizing and showing how each unique piece is equally important in completing a puzzle. Any one piece that’s missing, the puzzle is incomplete. No one piece is more important to that than any other.

Michael Hingson ** 1:04:14
That gets to be the real issue, of course doesn’t mean that’s why with things like unstoppable mindset where our tagline is where inclusion, diversity in the unexpected meet, I put inclusion first because typically diversity in our discussions leaves out disabilities, which it shouldn’t. So we talk about where inclusion, diversity in the unexpected meet really means that you’re going to either be inclusive or you’re not an inclusive means you have to include all things you can’t kind of go part way well, we’re partially inclusive, we deal with race. No, that’s not really inclusion very well. It

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 1:04:51
isn’t. There’s lots of different things. You know, we can add in neuro diversity to that. Well, I know when I was recovering From that spinal injury I mentioned to you, they had added a new glass door to the sort of suite where I had my visual anthropology lab. Well, they put the lock at floor level, because it was a glass door, and they didn’t like the look of a lock at the handle level. Well, I was recovering from a spinal injury, I was using a walker, I can’t get down to the floor level to unlock it. And it was something they added, which is how many years after, you know, the disability acts that all specify that any new thing needs to take in to account those different types of issues. I’m fortunate I was someone who that’s not a permanent issue I have to deal with. But it was still shocking to me that, you know, despite the fact that there were federal laws about it, no blessing, aesthetically appealing to them, they didn’t even take it into account. Well, of course,

Michael Hingson ** 1:05:55
as I’ve maintained, everyone has a disability. And for most of you, it’s like dependence. And if the power goes out, and you’re in a room somewhere, you immediately have major challenges. And, yeah, the light bulb has created light on demand that covers it up. But it doesn’t negate the fact that it’s still there. But it’s amazing how many people just choose to not recognize that we’re not nearly as inclusive as we should be. And we don’t include enough people in the conversation. And it’s something that does need to change. Absolutely. It’s one of those things that it’s a goal. And we’ll we’ll just continue to work toward it. Well, Jonathan, this has been a lot of fun if people want to reach out to you and maybe explore working with you or consulting. How do they do that?

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 1:06:40
Absolutely. So the best place to get more information, hop on my schedule, fill out a contact request would be my website, which is stepsalongtheway.global so just one word, no punctuation steps along the way, dot global. I really, that’s the name of my business steps along the way. Because I think where we are now is the steps we’ve taken. And the way to get the life you really want is to have intentionality about the next steps you take and dot global because I’m happy to work with people from anywhere and everywhere. And I travel enough that I might even be there. People are also welcome to reach out to me as far as direct email. And best way to do that would be sa t w again. That’s first step along the way satwcoaching@gmail.com. Send me a direct email, and I will be happy to be in touch and figure out whether I’m someone who can add value to you. And if I can’t help you figure out who could.

Michael Hingson ** 1:07:53
Super. Well thank you again for being here. And thank you for listening. We hope that you’ve enjoyed this. Please reach out to Jonathan, I think that it’s pretty obvious he’s got a lot to say that would be valuable and this valuable for all of us. I’m going to listen to this podcast a bunch of times I can tell you that. I’d love to hear your thoughts. And of course, again, we would appreciate a five star rating for unstoppable mindset. But if you’d like to reach out to me, I would love it. You can reach me at Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael hingson One word m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. So love to hear from you really would appreciate it. And Jonathan, once more. I really appreciate you being here and all the interesting and I think very exciting and profound thoughts you’ve given us and so thank you for doing it.

Dr. Jonathan Marion ** 1:08:54
Absolutely. My pleasure, Michael, thank you so much for having me.

Michael Hingson ** 1:09:01

You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.