Episode 222 – Unstoppable Trauma-Informed Leadership Coach with Kelly L. Campbell

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On this episode I have the pleasure of speaking with Kelly Campbell who is a trauma-informed leadership coach, speaker, facilitator, writer, and author. She also leads Consciousness Leaders—the world’s most diverse and equitable speakers’ agency. Kelly grew up in a home that, as she describes it, was more challenging than most. She tells us that even though she strived to be the perfect daughter by excelling at academics, sports, and other endeavors, she did not feel loved and, in fact, felt that she was “unlovable”. She will take us on her journey of learning how to accept the traumatic issues she faced and eventually learned how not only to articulate what happened to her, but also how she learned to recognize that she could learn to love herself.
Today, among other things, Kelly coaches leaders on how to better their lives by recognizing the traumas they face and have faced. As she tells us, most all of us have faced traumas whether we choose to recognize it or not. We learn the value of addressing issues and becoming better leaders and people at home, at work and throughout our entire life.
About the Guest:
Kelly L. Campbell (they/she) inspires revelation and responsibility in leaders across the globe. As a trauma-informed leadership coach, speaker, facilitator, writer, and author, they empower self-aware visionaries to correlate their past wounds to their leadership style, transforming the way they lead, live, and love. Her debut book, Heal to Lead: Revolutionizing Leadership through Trauma Healing (Wiley) will be released in April 2024.
They write for Entrepreneur, have written for Forbes, and offer exclusive content to their Substack community, “The New TLC: Trauma, Leadership, and Consciousness.” Early in their career, Kelly was the founder and CEO of a cause marketing agency and sold it in 2016, which led her to advise Fortune 50 corporations, non-profits, government organizations, and marketing and advertising agencies. They have hosted two top-rated podcasts since 2006—one on holistic health and wellness and the other on conscious leadership for marketing and advertising agency leaders.
A long-time conservationist, Kelly was trained by Al Gore as a Climate Reality Leader in 2017. Most recently, they became certified as a Reiki Level III Practitioner. Kelly’s vision is to empower more than half of humanity to heal its childhood trauma so that we may reimagine and rebuild the world together.
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Ways to connect with Kelly:
Book Pre-Order: https://klcampbell.com/heal-to-lead-book/ 
Website: https://klcampbell.com/ 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kelly.l.campbell 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellylcampbell/ 
Substack: https://kellylcampbell.substack.com/ 
Leadership Quiz: https://klcampbell.com/leadership/ 
Healing Resources: https://myhealingmenu.com
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
accessiBe Links
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Transcription Note:

Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson ** 01:20
Well, hi, everyone, welcome to unstoppable mindset wherever you happen to be in the world. We’re glad you’re here. Today we get to have a conversation with Kelly Campbell. And I got to tell you a little bit about my history with Kelly, there is a history isn’t that something anyway, I last year was beginning to seek out speaking opportunities and discovered Kelly’s consciousness leaders, speaker’s bureau and technology and company that helped speakers find opportunities and wrote to her, and along the way learned from her executive assistant that excessively had sponsored her podcast in 2022. And of course, AccessiBe is the the organization behind what we do here. So there was some great synergy and we well, she agreed to represent us and in the speaking world. And also, of course, I had to say, Kelly, you got to come on the podcast, and it only took six months to get around. But here it is. And Kelly, we’re really glad you’re on unstoppable mindset after that story. And thanks very much for being here.
Kelly Campbell ** 02:30
Michael, it is my absolute pleasure. Yeah, synergy is the word there was so much synergy when we first met. So I’m glad to be working together in lots of different ways.
Michael Hingson ** 02:38
Yeah, you gotta keep that going. It’ll be a lot of fun. Well, tell us a little bit about kind of the early Kelly growing up and all that sort
Michael Hingson ** 02:45
of stuff. Oh, the early Kelly,
Michael Hingson ** 02:48
I know it doesn’t that make it fun?
Kelly Campbell ** 02:49
Well, you know, listen, none of us had perfect childhoods. Mine was just a little more imperfect than most. And so, you know, the way that I grew up, I, I, you know, grew up with a mother who had basically, comorbidity conditions of borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder. And I didn’t know any of those words when I was a kid, right. And my dad ended up leaving, they kind of got an unofficially separated, I guess you call it when I was about nine. And so he was sort of my protector in the house. And so when he left, it was like my heartbeat. hypervigilance went on overdrive. And I think for many, many years, I would say even decades, it took me a long time to figure out how to how to get out of that nervous system dysregulation. And again, I don’t have any of these words or any of this understanding for a very long time. So
Michael Hingson ** 03:54
that’s usually what you know what happens kids know something’s going on, but can’t really describe it or articulate it.
Kelly Campbell ** 04:03
Yeah, yeah. So I knew something was off. I knew I had to protect myself, and in some ways, and I think I did a pretty good job of that. But what I also came to understand was the ways in which I was in the world, meaning, you know, in academics or in my social settings in my athletic career, I was, you know, trying to become this perfect persona, you know, in every single way. And it was really at the heart of it. It was I didn’t understand that there was a disconnect between her ability to love me, I thought it was if I just did this thing more perfectly if I just got these straight A’s and was captain of all these sports teams and got a full ride to college and she wouldn’t be proud and she would she would love me. And she didn’t have the tools to do that. But so I took that to mean that I was unlovable. All right. So I know the title of your podcast is unstoppable, unstoppable mindset, but I felt unlovable. And so I didn’t feel very unstoppable. And so creating, you know, I tried a little dip of the toe in the water of corporate America right after college and that that didn’t work for me. Immediately I created, you know, an organization, I started a digital marketing agency that focused on nonprofits and foundations and social impact initiatives. I was an avid conservationist and really was an advocate for the environment, and you know, all the things that we can do ourselves. And so I took all of that passion and all of that and created this agency. And so I had this digital marketing agency for about 14 years, I ended up selling it in 2016. And, you know, yeah, that was that was about eight years ago. And now I’ve been a consultant to Facebook and NASA. I have been, essentially a trauma informed leadership coach for the last few years. And I get to work with leaders in all different sectors on really what I did, which was correlating their childhood trauma, with their leadership style, the way that they show up in leadership leadership position today.
Michael Hingson ** 06:33
Well, you know, a question that comes to mind is, okay, so you had the situation that you had as a child, and you worked really hard to be loved. And as you pointed out, your mother didn’t have the tools? Well, so before I ask the question, I’m really thinking of, did that ever change? Has it ever changed with her? Or is it kind of just No, you know, she,
Kelly Campbell ** 06:57
she said, I write about this in the book, which I know will touch upon, she sort of, I’ll call it she opted out of my life when I was about four. And so I have not had any contact with her in 20 years.
Michael Hingson ** 07:11
Okay, so the question that I really was thinking of is, so all of that happened. But you I gather really did Excel, and you were the captain of teams, you’ve got great grades and so on. So as you look back on an even though what occurred, did happen? Do you feel that you feel positive? Or do you feel that all that was, in a sense, now worth it now that you can look back on it?
Kelly Campbell ** 07:39
I think everything was worth it. I think, you know, I have a very different mindset about what it was, I think I live to be really honest, I lived for many years in the State of victimization or victimhood. And oh, you know, these things happen to me, right were imposed upon me. And I think once the, you know, I started doing the deeper inner work, that mindset started to shift. And it was like, I, I have agency, I didn’t just start an agency, I actually have agency to figure out how I want to live the rest of my life. And this is not it. This is not it.
Michael Hingson ** 08:16
Yeah. And that’s what I was, was getting to is that your mindset shifted? And I’m assuming that you no longer feel that you’re unlovable. Oh,
Kelly Campbell ** 08:27
not at all. There you go. But I will say the difference is that not it wasn’t just about my mother, right? Yeah, it was any external validation or getting that, you know, I am lovable because so and so feels this way about me or cares about me or loves right? It that the need for that has fallen away over all of these years of doing this work. And I understand now that I am lovable because I love me, right? So the only thing that matters, but it takes people and it sounds so simple, Michael, but it takes a very, very long time, most of us until mid life to figure that out. And some of us don’t ever figure it out. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 09:06
Or we figure it out even much later. And it’s so unfortunate that that we have, well, we don’t have the tools to figure out some of those things a lot earlier. And of course, as a child as a kid. It’s it’s hard to associate that and so you look to your parents, you look up to your parents, and you talked about what your father did for you and what your mother didn’t do for you. But it’s taken a long time to really gain the rest of the tools necessary to put a better perspective on all that. You
Kelly Campbell ** 09:41
got it. You got it. Yeah. And you know, I do have a close relationship with my father. I would love an even closer relationship with him. You know, he also and I do write about this in the book. He had his own, you know, tumultuous upbringing with physical abuse from his stepfather. Other, and I’m not sure that he ever really has integrated that or addressed that. And so I think that there’s a little bit of, you know, I don’t know, just a lack of understanding that there is a closeness that could happen, there’s a depth to relationship that could happen if he were to go ahead and break through those things. However, as much as I want that, for him, that is not my responsibility as a child. It’s, it’s really up to him. And that’s the thing, it’s up to each one of us to determine the way that my life is going, the relate the quality of the relationships that I have, are not everything that I think that they could be, or that I hope that they could be. And so now I have to look inward and say, you know, where is my contribution to that? And how do I want that to change? How, how committed Am I to helping those changes be brought about? Yeah,
Michael Hingson ** 10:58
and as I was, was thinking in going to say, the fact is that the journey continues, and so you’re going to even learn more as you go forward, which can only help. That’s right. It’s a matter of looking for it. And most of us don’t take a lot of time to be introspective and look at what we do or why we do what we do and how we do it. I’m a strong advocate for people should take time at the end of every day looking at what happened that day. And I never like to view things as a failure. I can view things as well, this didn’t work. So what do I learn from that? Because I have to teach me as to how to deal with it. But the bottom line is that we, we should really take time to look at what didn’t work and what worked and how can we make it even better? And what does that mean for our lives. And we mostly don’t do that, oh, I don’t have the time, I’ve got to get right to sleep, because I gotta get up in the morning. And we miss such golden opportunities to start to think about that. Yeah,
Kelly Campbell ** 11:59
yeah. And that could come in a variety of different ways, right? Are the cerebral resources that are available to us through guided meditations and podcasts and books that we might listen to or read, there are so many ways to enter this realm, you know, to just get started to just, I don’t know, really get curious and start to understand that there are all of these resources available to us. And all we have to do is just pull the thread or lean into what feels resonant for us.
Michael Hingson ** 12:36
Right? Yeah, and, and then follow through on it,
Kelly Campbell ** 12:39
and then follow through on it, because it’s not just about the cerebral, right, we’re talking about integrating trauma, really at the heart of this. And so you can’t think your way out of a feeling that is in your body and literally in your you know, stuck in your sort of your nervous system and your fascia and, you know, in your, in your physical body. So the combination of the cerebral, the mindset work, the mindfulness, and the somatic work, you know, the movement, the emotional release, there are lots and lots of healing modalities, trauma integration modalities available to us. Most people think of therapy. And that’s it. That therapy is one, one out of literally millions of modalities that are available to us. Well,
Michael Hingson ** 13:27
and the other thing about therapy is people think, Oh, I’ll go to therapy. And I’ll get all the answers because the therapist will give me the answers. And therapists do help give you answers. And coaches help guide you to answers. But still, none of those matter if you don’t do something about it once you are given opportunities or discover opportunities.
Kelly Campbell ** 13:49
Yeah, yeah. And there are a lot of people who said, Yeah, I’m doing the work, quote, unquote, I’ve been in therapy for 15 years, like I was, and you know, therapy is wonderful, especially if you haven’t talked to anyone before about what is going on in your life and what’s on your heart and things that are, you know, maybe behaviors that you’re not happy with. That’s a wonderful thing. Staying in that relationship, though, and continuously just talking about it, sort of, in in many cases, I won’t say all cases, because there are lots of therapists who specialize in different things. But in many cases, a lot of people stay stuck in repetitive patterns. You know, and if if you really to your point, if you want to make the change, it is about committing and doing things different through other types of modalities, and some of those modalities don’t rely on another person. Right. Those are things that you’re doing yourself. So yeah, there’s there’s a lot and no healing journey looks the same. It’s not linear, you know?
Michael Hingson ** 14:57
Yeah, but it isn’t for any of us and you may You try something and it doesn’t really work or seem to work for you. And so you don’t give up, you need to try something else until you find something that works. And you also have to look at what it is you’re trying to achieve and what it is that you’re trying to accomplish.
Kelly Campbell ** 15:13
That’s right. That’s right. Because just like anything, you have to set a goal or or not even a goal so much as maybe there’s some little shift. Maybe the goal is I want to feel less anxious. Maybe the goal is I want to feel more comfortable in my skin in my body. Maybe, you know, so they’re not I think goal is maybe not the best word, but they are things that you are interested in changing. Modifying.
Michael Hingson ** 15:43
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So what is trauma? We we it’s a word we hear all the time, what what really is it, we
Kelly Campbell ** 15:54
hear the word trauma every single day. Whether we’re talking to a friend or scrolling on Instagram, or something like that, it has become a pretty, I don’t know, just like a word of the year, I think it probably will be the word of the year for 2024. Trauma, it is derived from the Greek word for which means wound, right. But what we’re talking about here is beyond that, we’re not talking necessarily about physical wounds, although that could be trauma, or talking about unintegrated information. So not the events that have happened to you at some point in your life, whether that’s in childhood or older, not the events themselves, but what happens inside your body because of that event, or events or prolonged scenario, right. So it could be a one time event that you experience, but what your body and your mind and your psyche are remembering in your tissues. Because it’s not memory, it’s Think of it like a body sensation, right? A something that is triggered in your nervous system that says this was an unsafe thing, or this was an experience that I do not want to experience again. So now I’m going to be hyper vigilant to make sure that I protect myself from not experiencing that again, right. So I say, I specify that it’s not the event, not only because we know that from, you know, experts like Dr. Gabor Ma Tei and Bessel Vander Kolk. But we know that if you and I experienced the same event, it may not have been traumatic for you. And it may have been traumatic for me, right? So there’s a subjectivity to this stuff. It’s a lot of nuance. But at the end of the day, it’s a situation where we have been feeling overwhelmed and unable to cope with a stressor. Right, and that stressor, we don’t have to determine whether that is big T trauma, small t trauma, because again, there’s subjectivity to it just an overwhelm, and overwhelm, and an inability to integrate the information.
Michael Hingson ** 18:19
So how does trauma intersect or become involved in dealing with leadership? What does it mean in the context of leadership?
Kelly Campbell ** 18:28
Well, I mean, leaders are humans, right? So we can’t pretend that once we stepped into a leadership role, if we put a suit on or, you know, some other expression of leadership, quote, unquote, that all of the trauma and all of those experiences and all of the maladaptive behaviors that we have because of it, that they just fall away, right, we can’t pretend that that happens. That doesn’t happen. Because we’re, we’re the same person internally, whether we are showing up at work, or we’re with our family, or we are at home. We just wear masks, because we don’t think that we will be seen as competent. If we bring our true selves, our authentic selves, our genuine selves, the real us into those scenarios. So, you know, this is this is a huge passion of mine and has become become really my life’s work is this integral, this intersection between trauma and leadership? Because no one is talking about these things. And we yet we are very aware of them. They are in our faces all the time, right in our political leaders, in our corporate leaders. We see on the news, the Elon Musk’s of the world and all of these other people who clearly we know in some way, shape or form that there’s something off quote unquote about them. Really the These are wounded humans, right? Elon Musk has been very vocal about some of the things that he’s experienced in childhood, at, you know, really in relationship to his father and some of the abuse that he endured through his peers when he was younger. So there was a feeling of powerlessness. And I just use this example, because there are a lot of people who are familiar with him, and is the innovation in which he leads. But a lot of people are not familiar with how actually terrible he is, as a people leader. And you know, a lot of that is stems from childhood trauma, where he felt powerless, he is now projecting that I will never feel that powerless again, I will be the richest and most powerful man in the world. He said that when he was eight years old, and boy, has that come true.
Michael Hingson ** 20:58
Yeah. The other side of it, though, is that if he did take a different tact in terms of how he dealt with people, how much I hate to use the word but more powerful, or more influential, he would really be? Well,
Kelly Campbell ** 21:15
I hear that. And I would just build on that to say, how much more positive impact could he make? Yeah,
Michael Hingson ** 21:24
that’s why I changed it from powerful to influential because, yeah, I think that’s more relevant, having a more powerful impact. We’ll look at Steve Jobs. And I don’t know as much about Steve Jobs. A lot of people were very loyal to him in the company. And he did a lot. And I just keep thinking, if he had lived 10 more years, what would it have been like in the world? Yeah.
Kelly Campbell ** 21:48
Yeah. It’s a good question. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 21:51
And it’s, it’s one of those, well, we’re not gonna get that answer. So we’ll just have to not worry about it, I guess, or or we can think about it. But how do we all move forward is really the issue. But you know, a question that I love to ask. We’ve been talking about leadership a little bit. What is a leader?
Kelly Campbell ** 22:10
Hmm, that’s a great cry. No, it’s
Michael Hingson ** 22:13
a fun question. I love to get different answers. And you know, there’s not necessarily a real right answer, but it’s a fair question.
Kelly Campbell ** 22:20
Yeah. It is a fair question. I love this question. My favorite definition of a leader, and I’ll paraphrase this, it’s not mine. It’s comes from Brene. Brown, it’s really, you know, someone who sees the potential in other people, and has the courage to develop that potential. Yeah. It feels to me like, you know, what we thought about or what we understood as leadership over the last 200 years is not what we actually would like to think of as leadership. Right. It’s not an authoritarian, it’s not someone who has all the answers and leads us into battle. And you know, all of that. It is someone who is there to create more leaders, not more followers of them. You are not going to get that answer from a lot of people. But that’s what I believe. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 23:17
And I think that the definition is a great one. And would that more people would see it, because bosses are not by any definition, necessarily leaders at all? Not at
Kelly Campbell ** 23:29
all. Not at all. They’re just wounded children in a way, if you think about it, right. I mean, think about trauma, what its impact is you asked me before, what is its impact on leadership? If we have a traumatic experience, right, we experienced trauma at let’s say, nine years old, we are ultimately stunted at nine years old if we don’t integrate that experience. So we have a lot of nine year olds, running companies. I was one of them, which is why I can say that, you know, the day they the introduction of the book is this woman had asked me it was consultant that I had hired. And she said, What was the I want you to close your eyes? And what was the first moment that you remember stepping into a leadership role? And the introduction of the book became, you know, or was born out of the answer to that question? And the answer was, I literally thought of the day that my I was nine years old, sitting in the back seat of my family car, a Crown Victoria, I’ll never forget it. And my brother, who’s about a year younger than me, was sitting next to me and my mother was taking us to the movie theater. But before we went into the movie theater, she turned around and said, Oh, I just want to let your kids know. Your father is not going to be living with us anymore. And this was the moment that I remembered when this woman asked me what was the first moment you you remember stepping into a leadership role? Because I As blown out as I was by this news, and scared and confused and had all these questions and no support, I, in that moment turned to my brother. Right and put my hand on his back. And for me, it was supporting him and comforting him, and sort of letting him know that he was not alone in this. Right. And it’s a weird memory to come up for that kind of question. But for a long time prior to me doing any of this healing work and trauma integration work on myself, I was that nine year old kid running that company. So, you know, to me, it’s like, do we want more nine year olds running companies? Or do we want centered, fully embodied healing actively healing humans running companies and organizations? Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 25:55
And you, you’ve evolved from being that nine year old child along the way, which is, of course, a great thing. Yeah. Which is, which is what you needed to do? Yeah.
Kelly Campbell ** 26:07
It’s taken a lot of work. And that’s the thing, this is a lifelong commitment. Right? This isn’t a single Ayahuasca retreat, or just therapy for a few years. That’s not what this is about. This is a lifelong commitment to, you know, really understanding who you are, what behaviors you would like to change, how you want to show up in the world. How you want to lead in whatever way that means whether that’s in your your family system, at work, in your social group, maybe you have a religious affiliation, leadership comes in all different flavors and sizes, right? But it’s figuring that out. And then understanding as part of that healing journey in that process. What you are here to contribute in the world, because this isn’t about you. You, the more you learn about yourself, the less your ego is online, which is kind of a interesting oxymoron there. But yeah, it’s more about what you what is your purpose? What are you here to contribute in the world? Because you understand through the healing journey that this is so much bigger than you so much bigger?
Michael Hingson ** 27:21
So following up on that and kind of continuing in since healing is a lifelong commitment. What’s in it for leaders? Well, since we always seem to want to do things our way, so what’s in it for me? What’s in it? For me? Yeah,
Kelly Campbell ** 27:38
well, I will answer the question. But my initial reaction as a trauma informed leadership coach is think about, you know, if there’s a leader who has that sort of that question, right? They’re sort of being provocative. Well, what’s in it for me? Why should I do any of this healing stuff? It sounds terrible takes a lifetime. You know, it’s it has nothing to do with my legacy? Well, my question to that person would be well think about what your life is like right now. And if we were to fast forward five years from now, and life is exactly the same way you’re feeling the level of overwhelm anxiety, you’re biting at people that you don’t even know, maybe there’s like, some anger going on in your body, you tend to micromanage people, your relationships aren’t exactly what you would love them to be. If we fast forward five years from now, and life was exactly like that, would you be okay with that? Right. And really, when we’re getting real, is this current thing called life working for you? As is? Yeah, that would be my question. But I like to, I like to stoke the fire a little bit. But what’s in it for people is some of the things that I alluded to better, closer, deeper, more meaningful relationships, not just that work, not just that home, not just with friends, I’m talking about all of them, because you will show up differently, right. If you own an organization or are in leadership of an organization, a workplace, the bottom line will actually see the impact of this in a positive way. Because the people who you are leading will trust you more, will respect you more will be more loyal. So you’ll have less employee attrition, maybe even less client attrition or customer attrition, right? People want to follow and emulate those who have, you know, aligned values. I mean, access to be as a great example of that, right? There’s so much in it. And it’s not just about the business or just about the personal it’s everything. You’re also probably going to find that you develop a passion or reignite or rekindle a passion for some of the things that you were really excited about when you were a kid, maybe you love loved nature. Maybe you love to play an instrument, whatever, whatever the thing was, there’s more joy and more passion and more fulfillment in your life by doing this work. I don’t know, you know, that sounds like no big deal to me, you know, it’s just life changing. There’s so much available to us. And it’s only possible once we do this work, well.
Michael Hingson ** 30:30
While I was in college, I did radio and loved it. I was in radio, the campus for six and a half years and had a lot of fun doing it and, and never thought I’d be back doing something is part of my life relating to that. And four years ago, I would never have thought of being the host of a podcast. But in 2021, when I joined excessively, they asked if I would do it, and here we are. And it’s really doing very well, a lot of people seem to really like it. And we’re having a lot of fun. And for me personally, I get to learn a lot. And I think that’s the the most important thing for me is I get to learn a lot. I’ve, I’ve changed my mindset on things over the past two and a half years. And as I as I tell people, whenever we do these podcasts, there’s only one hard and fast rule. And that is we both have to have fun.
Kelly Campbell ** 31:23
Yeah, yeah. And we’re doing that. I’m glad that you brought that up. Because this idea of being a lifelong learner and being curious about the world. That’s a little throwback to what I was talking about in childhood, right? If you if you look at a two year old, a five year old, a seven year old, a nine year old, they’re, you know, everything is, in all everything is one dress, right? There’s so much exploration, experimentation, and then we are taught little by little inadvertently, and then sometimes very explicitly, that that is not something that we can continue with, right? We might be able to do it for a few years when we’re toddlers. But like, now, you’ve got to get serious. I there’s people who ask, you know, five year old, what do you want to be when you grow up? Right? It’s like, I don’t have to make that decision. I just want to be a kid right now. So um, yeah, it’s just like that, that level of curiosity and being a lifelong learner, being able to change your mindset, as opposed to having a fixed mindset and thinking very narrowly or thinking from a binary perspective. That, to me is one of the greatest gifts of healing as a leader.
Michael Hingson ** 32:35
And we really shouldn’t be discouraged from being curious. And it happens. So often, I know I’ve been to museums and other places where I’ll reach out and touch something that we’re passing, and somebody say, you can’t touch that you can’t do this, you can’t do that. Why not? The reality is, I can appreciate not everyone going to a museum should be allowed to touch art, because too many hands with oil can can have an effect on it. But allowing a blind person who’s not going to see it any other way to touch it shouldn’t be a problem. And allowing other people to be curious in their own way shouldn’t be a problem. But it’s all too often something we discourage. And as people grow older, when you get as you point out out of being a toddler, you’re starting to be taught not to be curious. I’ve seen so many examples where I’ve been somewhere and somebody wants to either pet my dog or ask me a question about being blind, a child and their parents out, don’t do that. It’s impolite. It’s not, you know? I try to well whenever I can. And, and like one of my philosophies, and one of my policies is if a child wants to pet my guide dog, and I hear the child asking the parent is, oh, no, that dog might bite and so on, I will stop, I’ll take the harness off, because that’s alimos cue that he’s no longer working. And I will say, go ahead, you can pet the dog, he’s very friendly. I just hope you’re not holding an ice cream cone. But I will always do that. And with adults. Mostly the same thing. If an adult wants to pet the dog. If I have time, I will again stop and take the harness off. And I’ll say I’m taking the harness off, because now he knows he’s not working. And there have been a few times that someone has wanted to pet the dog. And I said, Look, I’ve got to go, I don’t have the time right now I would love to but I just don’t have the time. And they pet the dog anyway. And of course I know that because the dog turns and looks and wants to visit more because dogs love that. And I have to give the dog a correction because they shouldn’t be responding to the person and the correction is just a slight tug on the leash. And I remember one case where a woman did it and she said, Oh, don’t don’t punish the dog. I was the one that was petting the dog and I said no, you don’t understand. The dog shouldn’t have reacted. I’m gonna deal with the dog and then I’ll deal with you because I had already said no, I don’t have time.
Kelly Campbell ** 34:57
Children. Yeah, I was just gonna say she wasn’t respecting your boundaries, or the dog’s boundaries in that case, right,
Michael Hingson ** 35:02
right. With children, Allah, we stopped because I don’t want them to be afraid. And I want to give them the opportunity to ask questions. And I realize, well, I have a teaching mentality anyway. And I believe that my job is whenever I can to teach, and I love to do it with adults, too. It’s so much fun.
Kelly Campbell ** 35:23
Yeah, I want to go back to the boundary thing, oh, man, because it just sparked something in me, you know, part of doing healing work is not taking things so personally, so that when someone does, you know, enact a boundary, you respect it, and you respect it genuinely. Right. And you also on the flip side of that, have the ability to not sort of fall into that people pleasing tendency, and you can more easily, you know, state what your boundaries are, in a very, you know, loving and respectful way. Yeah. And so I think that respecting people’s boundaries, and then being able to talk about your own and express your own, that’s another benefit. You know, as we’re talking, it’s like, we could talk, we can have a whole podcast just talking about benefits of healing. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 36:15
Maybe we should, maybe we should. But yeah, there’s, there’s a lot to be said, for boundaries. And I, I fear in our society, we’re losing the concept of boundaries, that there are so many things that are happening, we talk about politicians and others, and so on, who seem not to have any respect for boundaries, and we’re losing the art of conversation, people won’t talk or allow themselves to be involved in talking about them and being involved in such discussions.
Kelly Campbell ** 36:46
I mean, that’s a shame. You know, boundaries are really important, or kind. I love boundaries, boundaries also help with conversations about consent, right? I mean, all of these things are intertwined. And so the more that we heal, the more that we understand what we’re comfortable with what we will accept, from the people in our lives, the things that we will not accept, and then we understand we grow and we learn new language around that. It’s beautiful. It’s actually well,
Michael Hingson ** 37:17
now my cat doesn’t have any respect for boundaries.
Kelly Campbell ** 37:21
Well, we can’t help the cats.
Michael Hingson ** 37:24
But my dog does. He really clearly respects boundaries. And I would hope that I understand his. But we have a great synergistic relationship, in reality I do with the cat as well. But she’s, she’s a fun kitty. She’s 14 and a rescue cat, and a lot of fun. So it works well. But boundaries are something that we’re just losing the art of understanding, you know, people say we shouldn’t talk about politics and all that. And I keep thinking, why not? Why don’t we have enough boundaries and enough respect for others that we, we can’t discuss things where maybe we disagree, there’s nothing wrong with disagreement, we should be able to discuss it, good teams learn to disagree. And and the point of have a good relationship in a team is that team members can very well disagree, and they know that their views will be respected by the other members of the team, so they can do it. But in general, we just don’t see that. But that
Kelly Campbell ** 38:30
comes from the top. Right. So if you know there’s discourse, that means that there’s trust, trust is not at the top, meaning we’re that we are looking up at the leader. If that trust is not there, then we are not going to feel on the team, the ability to trust one another. So it’s very much like a modeling, right? And so leaders who are vulnerable leaders who say, I don’t have all the answers, I actually need your help to run this organization or finish this project, or whatever it is. And then you mentioned team in the case of maybe personal relationships, you know, a team could be just two partners, a team could be a family, right? And so yeah, it all of this transcends and is so interconnected between all of these types of relationships. But yeah, I think, trust and discourse, right and not avoiding conflict, you can’t have any of those things which are beautiful things, you know, to understand someone else’s perspective and give them the space to express their perspective and be able to say, You know what, I can hear what you’re saying, and I still have my beliefs. We made like the purpose of this discourse is not to necessarily change each other’s mind, or to be on the same page. But it’s just to understand a little bit more about like, underlying Lee, what are your values? What are my values? And yeah, I think that, you know, part of this is we get so rigid and so tight when we haven’t addressed what’s underneath all of this, you know? So yeah, I love being able to have conversations about politics or, you know, with the people. And this is where you have to be discerning, it’s with the people who can hold that both and thinking, you know, and aren’t such on a binary track. So you have to be discerning about that. Because you you want to keep, you know, put yourself in situations where you also feel a sense of safety.
Michael Hingson ** 40:42
Yeah. But the other part about team relationships, say within a corporation is the ultimate goal of discussions and controversy. Well, controversy or disagreement, is to eventually come to some sort of consensus and doesn’t necessarily mean that one or either of us like, the decision, but we come to a decision that we can live with, until or unless it doesn’t work. And then if it doesn’t work, then we say, okay, it’s nobody’s fault. We, we decided we all did it together. Let’s figure out where we go from here. And one of my favorite books is The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. I don’t know if you’ve never read that. It’s a great book. I have not, but I Well, it’s it’s a fairly short book. But it’s a great book that talks about teamwork. And the basic premise is, as you point out trust, one of the things that I love to tell people is that I have learned a lot more about teamwork and team development, and trust, from working with eight guide dogs that I’ve ever learned from all the experts in the world on it, because when I’m working with a guide, dog, and I make no mistake, it is an absolute teaming relationship. When I work with a guide dog, we are truly developing a team, we each have a job to do. And part of my job is supposed to be the team leader, but also as the team leader. And this is something I was going to bring up a leader no needs to know when to give up leadership to somebody else be on the team, because they may be able to handle a particular situation well, and better than you. And you sort of alluded to that. And that’s true with a guide dog. If we’re walking down a sidewalk and we get to a curb, the dog stops, because the job of the guide dog is to make sure that I walk safely not to know where to go and how to get there. That’s my job. And the dog trusts need to know that. And if I convey that, I don’t know that the dogs gonna get worried. So it makes me feel more obligated in advance whenever we’re going to be somewhere to learn how to go where I need to go, now I can still get lost. But I know that when that happens, and I get confused, I can’t panic, because that’s going to make the dog uncomfortable. But as I was going to say, when we get to a street corner and the dog stops, and then I say forward, and we start across the street, and suddenly the dog jerks back, I’m not going to question what that dog is doing. I’m gonna follow that dog. Partly it’s a survival thing. But also partly, that’s the dog’s job. And what it usually is as a hybrid vehicles coming that I didn’t hear. So the dog will still go back. And I’m going to follow that dog and I’m going to tell that dog what a great job it was doing. Likewise, going down the stairs at the World Trade Center was the same sort of thing. I needed to keep the dog confident and focused. So it was ongoing constant praise, which was also sending a message to the dog. I’m okay. And it didn’t matter what I was thinking inside. That’s what I needed to do to help my teammate be able to function well. Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Campbell ** 44:02
Thank you for for a sharing that story. I know you’ve shared it many times, but I just just hearing it and kind of in this, this little conversation. I appreciate it. And it it really speaks to that relationship, that trust and also the fact that as a leader, you will not always have the right answer or know what to do next. Right, right. The there’s something since we’re on the the theme of dogs and cats and there is something that I put into the prologue of the book related to geese, Canada geese. And the reason why I did that was because my grandmother loved loved the more than anyone I’ve ever known. Loved Canada geese specifically because they fly in a V formation. And the reason why I the reason behind the flying in a V formation. So many people don’t know this. But when they fly into V formation, the leader quote unquote, who is at the top of the V. V, right? That is the most rested goose, right. So the one who has essentially moved all the way to the back, has rested for the longest period of time then flies past every one of the other ones and takes the leadership position. And they do that because they are the most rested. And what I love about that is if we started thinking about trusting the the leader who is the most rested, right, that the relationship between trust and rest. If that was part of the way that we think about leadership, boy, would that be a different? Yeah, we would live in, right. So it speaks to like regenerative leadership and you know, trusting someone who is maybe in a better physical scenario than you, right? Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s fascinating how we’ve gotten so off course, with what we think of as a leader or a good leader, versus what you know, the definition should really be. I
Michael Hingson ** 46:23
wonder how it is that the geese know who the most rested is?
Kelly Campbell ** 46:28
Well, just based on where they are in the formation, so the one at the very back has fallen back from the leadership position with that they were in at one point, and they also in time, well, every time a new one comes to the front, they basically take the next position back, right. And so there, by the time they get to the very tail of the V formation, that’s the one who has benefited from that aerodynamic, you know, situation,
Michael Hingson ** 46:56
and they track it. So they they know. Yeah, and that’s, that’s the point. So did your grandmother ever get to visit with any of the Canadian geese? Um,
Kelly Campbell ** 47:05
my grandmother, she loves Canada geese so much that she actually had had requested that we had a flock of geese in a V formation engraved on her headstone. I mean, that’s what she loved them. And for me, it was more about this idea of innate leadership that she really I sort of digested from her or I don’t know, maybe it’s through osmosis. Because she was, she was like the matriarch of our family. And was not the one that was the most vocal was not the one that didn’t ask for help. She led in in a way that really was real and human and vulnerable and just beautiful. She was She She created a lot of trust within our family. For each of the grandchildren, you know, I kind of joke around that she made each and every one of us feel like we were her favorite. So yeah, I just I have such fond memories of that. So that’s why I started the book with that. When
Michael Hingson ** 48:12
we moved to Northern California back in 2002. There was a flock of ducks. Well, before we moved in our there was a contractor who did work to make the house wheelchair accessible for my wife. And he warned us that there were ducks. And he said, he made the mistake of giving a piece of a donut to one of them. And he said every day, they would come up to the door. And if I didn’t have doughnuts for them, they’d go for the throat. So we we got to visit with the ducks. And then one day I was out feeding the ducks. And we brought we bought what I call duck bread. We bought white bread from Costco, and they loved it. And while I was out feeding the ducks one day sitting on our back patio, and this bigger beak came into the mix. And I called Karen, who came on and said it’s a goose and it was an American greylag goose who had been living in that community for a while. I don’t know whether he thought he was a duck. But he and the ducks got along and he loved to come up and get fed as well. And like to get petted. It was a you know, I knew that goose generally were a little bit touchy about that, but not silver. He loved it.
Kelly Campbell ** 49:22
That’s great. I love it. I love it. You have so much nature in your life was a lot of fun.
Michael Hingson ** 49:26
And eventually he died. He was like 18 when we knew him and oh, wow, we I don’t know how much longer he lived but one day he wasn’t there anymore. So what are some? What are some self care strategies that leaders can use when you’re trying to deal with this long term commitment to heal?
Kelly Campbell ** 49:46
Well, I think you’re illustrating one really nicely in in some of these stories, which is connection to nature, right getting out in nature. If you have pets, you know, sometimes self care Looks like going for a walk with your dog or petting your cat. Even taking care of your plants, right? I know these things sound really simple, but I think a lot of people think about self care as only, you know, maybe going to the gym or getting a massage or some people think about self care as having a glass of wine after work. Those things, in many ways, sort of, you can think about them like superficial self care. And that’s sort of a bifurcation that I make in the book. You know, when we’re talking about really integrating trauma, we’re doing deep, pretty profound work, where there can be emotions that come up, anger, sadness, grief, rage, you know, things that we didn’t maybe express when we were younger, there’s a lot to deal with. So real self care strategies is, you know, maybe things like enacting boundaries, if you’ve got friends that want to go out and you feel like you just don’t have the capacity for that. Maybe it’s saying, you know, thank you for the invitation, I’m actually going to take care of myself, tonight, I’m going to prioritize my mental well being or my physical well being. So it’s resting for sure, it’s probably at the top of my list is getting more rest, because so many of us do not get rest. Sure, we might sleep at night for a few hours or even 678 hours. But that sleep, rest is a little different. So rest could be like taking naps or things like that. prioritizing our ourselves in terms of those boundaries. I mean, there are so many different things that you can employ, but they have to feel good for you. Right? And, you know, again, really thinking about this, this distinction between what is superficial, right? And what is actual self care, right? taking time for yourself, maybe if you’re, I don’t know, doing some project, maybe building in some rest periods, so that you’re not just grinding through it. We’re in such a hustle culture. And we normalize that. And we think that it’s a positive thing, because we’re getting rewarded from the by that we get rewarded with promotions and all these other things when we overwork. Well, we get overstimulated. We get Yeah, we get bonuses and promotions for it. But at what cost? Right, taking care of ourselves is more about Yeah, just having an awareness of what do I actually need? What capacity? Do I actually have to get this thing done? Or to say yes to this? Is this something that I should be saying no to. So it’s more of that in that realm. And of course, there are, you know, probably dozens of other things that we can kind of put into the real self care bucket. But I think it’s in that realm, and I would put rest at the top, where
Michael Hingson ** 53:06
should leaders, I think we’ve touched on this, but actually begin if they want to start down this path of healing.
Kelly Campbell ** 53:16
There are a lot of places to start. I mean, again, if you’ve never spoken with anyone before, I think therapy is a wonderful place to start, it may not be the thing that will get you to trauma integration, but it’s a great mental health maintenance protocol. And it’s a great entryway into healing. If you want to learn a little bit more about where you’re sitting on the spectrum of, you know, being a conscious leader, like high conscious leader, low conscious leader, evolving leader, and what all of that kind of means, I do have a leadership quiz. So it’s essentially answering 20 Different if statements and seeing how true those feel to you, though that quiz is on my website, it’s free. If you want to get the full report, quote, unquote, or the full assessment, you would just have to put your email address in at the end. But that’s at k l campbell.com. Forward slash leadership.
Michael Hingson ** 54:17
Cool. Well, we’ll have to go go check out the quiz non curious, which is fair. Well, you know, you talked earlier about people pleasing. And I, I realized that can be a real problem and a real challenge. So I thought I’d just do this because I don’t want to make anyone unhappy. And that, again, that’s not dealing with boundaries very well, including your own. So what are some things that people can do to stop just being a people pleasing leader or a people pleaser?
Kelly Campbell ** 54:48
Well, it’s not going to come by just stopping it right? Like it’s not going to come from a mental shift of I, you know, I’m going to stop doing this. It really you have to understand and start doing to work on the underlying causes and conditions as to why you are in that people pleasing mode, and most of the time that comes from us not feeling like we’re worthy, or we’re valuable unless we say yes to these things, or, you know, God, God forbid, if we, you know, create conflict. Or if we say no, or we push back on something, this person may not like me, I may not get this promotion, right. So there’s all these stories that get created. So I think it’s about really going under the hood and figuring out where does that come from, you know, sort of unpacking that for yourself, and then deciding, okay, I want to have more control over my schedule, I want to have more control over my life, I want to do pursue the things that I want to pursue. And in order to do that, I’ve got to say no, to certain things. So yeah, it’s it’s really about extending a little bit of self exploration, determining what you want to change in those realms, and then doing some of the work on yourself. And it’s through that work, that you get to the point where you’re like, you know, what, I am worthy, and valuable. And all of that, simply for who I am, I don’t need to prove that by saying yes to all of these things by taking on all of this responsibility that I actually don’t have capacity for. So it’s a much longer answer than you’re looking for. But that’s the reality of it. It’s not just oh, I’m not going to people, please anymore. So you know, because the reality is, you could give people tools and tactics all day long. But if you’re not addressing, or they’re not addressing the underlying causes, it’s just not going to be effective. Actually,
Michael Hingson ** 56:45
more was like the answer I was looking for. Because I know it’s not a simple thing to do. There. But you know, at work, there are a lot of people who keep saying, You’re not doing enough, you didn’t do this, you got to do that. How do you push back on that if you’re at work or or in any part of your life, to say, wait a minute, I’m really doing the best that I can and get people to accept that? Well,
Kelly Campbell ** 57:10
this is about boundaries, right? is at the end of the day, you cannot control what other people think about you, or how they talk about you or what their perception is, you have to be really comfortable with your own decisions. Yeah, and setting those boundaries from a place I as I said before, of like compassion and kindness and just you know, being loving, but you’re, what you’re doing is you’re being loving to yourself, at the same time that you’re actually being loving to them, they may not interpret it that way, they may not receive it that way. But the more you take care of you, the more you can actually give in other realms. So how do you do it and you know, if people are pushing back, you know, there are lots of ways to be able to get them to see, you know, this is what I’ve done. This is what I’m able to do, right? So for will give a concrete example, you’re at work your boss asks you to take on this project that you have absolutely no capacity for. So you could say something like, I’m happy to help with that project, I have this other project that you’ve given me that I’m fully dedicated to which one takes priority, because I can’t do both. So which one would you like me to work on starting today? And potentially push off? You know, so we’re gonna have to talk about the timeframe in which those things are completed. Right. So it’s more of a conversation. It’s more of a collaborative, as opposed to just saying yes, and then not letting anyone know that you’re working until one o’clock in the morning, not getting enough sleep, it’s impacting your health, etc, etc. You know where this goes? Yeah, I would say the majority of people function like that. And I would say that function is probably not what they’re doing.
Michael Hingson ** 59:00
Yeah. And they’re totally missing the opportunity to be better performers. And if the people they’re working with won’t develop some respect for that, then they’re contributing to a lack of productivity. Got it? Yeah. I remember one of my first jobs was not in sales. But I was called into the office of the VP of Marketing one day and said, We’re laying you off. And I said, why? And he said, Well, you’ve done a great job of things that you were doing, but we’ve hired too many non revenue producing people. And we have to change that. So we’re laying you off. And then he paused, he said, unless you’re willing to go into sales. And we don’t want you to sell the product that you were working with, which was mainly a reading machine for blind people, but rather the commercial version of it. And my immediate response was, I don’t know anything about sales. I’ve never sold professionally and his response was, we’ll make sure you get all the tools you need. We’re going to send you to a Dale Carnegie sales course and sell One. And as he talked, I realized, they’re asking me to do a really significant thing. And he’s giving me an opportunity to stay. Why would I refuse. And I’ve been in sales ever since, of course, what I realized later is, we’re every one of us is always in sales one way or another, but it, I can, I can trace being in the world trade center back to that choice actually being in sales a long time ago. But that, you know, and I think a lot of us if we really think about it, can trace where we are back to choices that we’ve made. And that’s a valuable lesson to give us an opportunity to learn from.
Kelly Campbell ** 1:00:37
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And seeing it for that, you know, seeing it as those those choice points and those opportunities that we could have taken one path, and we took a different path. And just knowing that that was probably what we were meant to do.
Michael Hingson ** 1:00:53
So tell us about the book is not it’s not that we haven’t been talking about it. But tell us about the book,
Kelly Campbell ** 1:00:57
I’ve been talking about it a little bit here and there. So the book is really a wake up call. We as a society, and as leaders can’t keep going the way that we’re going. And so, you know, between the mental health stigma, and the idea that we cannot talk about our humanity and our trauma, at work, and I don’t mean trauma, dumping, I just mean, who we are, and how our past has impacted our present. Men, many people really wouldn’t touch this stuff and won’t touch the stuff and haven’t touch the stuff with a 10 foot pole. Because we’re so afraid to face the truth of who we are, or we’re afraid of what we might find out. And I think that we’re at a choice point, we’re at a critical impasse here, where if we don’t start waking up, and we don’t start taking responsibility for ourselves, our reactions, our behaviors, all of that. remedying our disconnection from this planet that we live on, right, understanding what we’re here to contribute in the world. And not thinking that life is some individualistic journey, right? Because that’s not what it’s about. Really, this book is a wake up call for leaders to say, You know what, there has to be a better way to be in the world. And then I think I have to go inward. And here are the ways in which I’m going to do that. I do share a number of very personable personal vulnerable stories, just to kind of model that vulnerability, and give you a sense of like, what that trauma looked like for me as a leader. Alright, how the impact of trauma impacted me as a leader. And all of it is framed around this idea of, if we are going to move forward in a direction where everyone you know, feels seen, heard, valued, respected, appreciated, et cetera, safe. We want to live in a world that is inclusive and equitable and revered nature for what it is. Then I frame this as the four fundamentals of what we call high conscious leadership. And so trauma integration is the first fundamental. And then we have embodying vulnerability, and then leading with compassion. And the fourth one is lighting the way which is really again, much something I mentioned earlier, leading the way is about creating more leaders, not more followers. So that’s a little bit of an encapsulation of what healed to lead us. So it’s healed to lead, revolutionising leadership through trauma healing.
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:46
And when will the book be out?
Kelly Campbell ** 1:03:48
The book will be out April 16th. Cool.
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:52
Well, anxious to to get it. Do you know if there’ll be an audio version? I
Kelly Campbell ** 1:03:59
don’t know yet. I have a sneaking suspicion that there will be but not initially. So initially, it’ll just be digital. And so Kindle and hardcover, eventually, I’m assuming that there’ll be an audible version. And probably a paperback at some point in the future.
Michael Hingson ** 1:04:17
Yeah, usually, the hardcover eventually goes to paperback, if it sounds at all, and it will, then that usually does happen. Well, even the Kindle version will have to try to hunt it down. I’m working on a new book that will be out later this year. It’s called Live like a guide dog. And it’s all about learning to control fear. And what it’s not is saying don’t be afraid it is saying instead, you can learn that fear doesn’t need to overwhelm you. So that’s gonna be out in August. That’ll
Kelly Campbell ** 1:04:41
be I love that. Congratulations on that. And I
Michael Hingson ** 1:04:45
just learned last week that it and I kind of insisted on it. Needless to say, since there are a bunch of us who are blind who are going to want to read it, there will be an audio version of it. So we push that with the publishers. That’s cool.
Kelly Campbell ** 1:04:57
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, I’m very excited about that for you.
Michael Hingson ** 1:05:02
Well, I want to thank you for for being here. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?
Kelly Campbell ** 1:05:08
My website is probably the best way you can find the book. You can find more about what I do. It’s just k l campbell.com. Cool.
Michael Hingson ** 1:05:16
And they can go off and take the leadership quiz as well as your quizzes right there. Yeah. Well, thanks for being here. And I want to thank all of you wherever you are for listening today, please give us a five star rating wherever you’re listening. Love those five star ratings, but we also love just getting your opinions and your thoughts. So please, contribute. If you know anyone who want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. Kelly, you as well please let us know. And we are always looking for more people to have on to give us insights. Me being prejudiced, I get to learn a lot that way. So we love to do it. If you’d like to reach out to me feel free you can reach me at Michael M i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael hingson has m i c h a el h i n g s o n. So go there love to get your thoughts and again, your ratings. We appreciate it. If you’re looking for a speaker, I am always available, please reach out to me. Another way you can even do that is to email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. And I would love to chat with you about that. So once more Kelly we really appreciate you taking the time to be here and and now it’s getting to be lunchtime for you.
Kelly Campbell ** 1:06:33
Thank you so much Michael. The pleasure was all mine.
Michael Hingson ** 1:06:40
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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