Episode 176 – Unstoppable Board Game Developer and Entrepreneur with Jack Kountouris
I absolutely love hosting Unstoppable Mindset. I, and thus you, get to meet so many interesting and fascinating people. Jack Kountouris was born in London to a North Carolina mother and a father from Greece. He lived there until he came to the United States to attend college at Wake Forest. While in his Master’s program he met a friend who had an interest, like Jack, in board games.
After college Jack and his friend decided to become business partners and formed Dimension Board Games in 2021. For a bit, Jack lived again in London while his friend lived in Denver Colorado. Jack took up a full-time career as an executive recruiter while working to help start the company. Life became easier in May of 2022 when Jack moved to West Los Angeles. Now at least the two partners were pretty much in the same relative time zones.
My time with Jack was especially interesting as Jack discusses challenges the two friends faced while starting and working to grow their business. He discusses openly the many challenges he faced as a new entrepreneur and he gives us some good lessons about how to move forward during trying times such as when the pandemic was at its height. I think you will find our time with Jack helpful and certainly inspiring.
About the Guest:
Jack Kountouris is a Greek-American entrepreneur who grew up in London and now aims to revolutionize the board game industry. With a unique cultural background stemming from his father’s roots in Athens, Greece, and his mother’s North Carolinian heritage, Jack brings a diverse perspective to the world of gaming.
Having spent his formative years immersed in the vibrant atmosphere of London, Jack developed a deep appreciation for art, creativity, and innovation. He obtained his bachelor’s and master’s degrees at Wake Forest University in North Carolina, and it was during this time that a simple pastime of playing board games with his friend ignited a spark of inspiration. Fueling their entrepreneurial spirit, they founded Dimension Board Games, and their first game, "Invasion: The Conquest of Kings," was released in May 2022.
Jack now lives in West Los Angeles, where he continues to innovate with his friend and business partner on new games while juggling a full-time career in the executive search industry. Through their captivating storytelling and immersive gameplay, they aim to leave a lasting legacy in the gaming industry for years to come.
With an indomitable entrepreneurial spirit, Jack Kountouris brings a business perspective to the emerging board game landscape, captivating audiences, and redefining what it means to deliver joy and excitement to players of all ages. His journey is a testament to the power of creativity, persistence, and a commitment to making a difference in the world.
Ways to connect with Madilynn:
www.dimensionboardgames.com is the website to my company
@jackountouris is my Instagram
@dimensionboardgames is my company’s instagram.
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson ** 01:21
Well, hi there everyone. Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. And today we get to have a conversation with a really interesting person at least I find him interesting, I think you’re going to as well. You’re going to hear some pretty unusual things that you haven’t heard on unstoppable mindset before. But it’s always good to stretch the envelope. And that’s as always fun. Jack Kountouris is our guest today. Jack was born in London came over here to go to Wake Forest and earned his bachelor’s and master’s degree. He is an executive recruiter, we’ll talk about that, because I think there’s some relevance of that. But mostly, he has developed an interest. And I don’t want to give it away. We’ll get to it. But he’s developed an interest which is incredibly fascinating. And I’m anxious to hear about it. I’ve never met someone who’s doing some of the things that he’s doing, but we’ll get to that. Suspense right. Anyway, Jack, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We’re glad to have you here.
Jack Kountouris ** 02:24
Hi, Michael. Thanks. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Michael Hingson ** 02:27
So you, as you describe in your biography are Greek American, which is kind of fun. Father from Athens mother from was it North Carolina? Yeah.
Jack Kountouris ** 02:37
Mama from NC little town, in the Outer Banks,
Michael Hingson ** 02:40
and you didn’t develop a North Carolina accent? Obviously.
Jack Kountouris ** 02:45
No, I never did. I did grow up in London. So my accent got a bit of a Britishness to it.
Michael Hingson ** 02:52
Well, there you go. Well, tell us a little bit about you. Maybe it’s kind of the early Jack growing up and all that you grew up elsewhere. So that’s always fun and fascinating to learn about. So I’d love to hear about the the younger Jack.
Jack Kountouris ** 03:04
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Happy to tell you. So basically, I was born in London, to an American mother and a Greek dad. So living living in the city. I was basically growing up there. I went there all throughout high school, primary school, secondary school, and then high school. And yeah, we would have vacations. Every summer we go to my dad’s family in Greece, and we also visit my mom’s family over in NC. Yeah, so at the time of me graduating high school, I was applying to UK as as well as US colleges. And because they had the all NC connection, I mean, my brother was actually at Duke at the time. So I had to be more in touch with my and move out there for college. So yeah, I chose wake and absolutely loved by Christ there. Stay there, find bachelors, and then my graduate degree.
Michael Hingson ** 04:02
What was Elementary and grim and high school like in London, how does it differ from what we experienced over here if you’ve had a chance to observe or learn more about that?
Jack Kountouris ** 04:14
Oh, yeah. So it’s very similar to how Paulien wave was what you can imagine, I’m sure. Basically, education system absolutely loved it. We had school uniforms, which everything was restricted in in that way, but honestly, I liked having the uniforms because you didn’t really have to stress about what you can wear every day. But yeah, absolutely loved the British system, and actually loved the friends I made made there. But actually, when it came to high school, I went to the American School in London. So they will that was more of an American System international system.
Michael Hingson ** 04:55
did well, of course, you did it in high school. So I mean, and happy exactly the same. But I know I studied German in high school and learned a lot about the whole German system. And one of the things that I learned is that they really emphasized over their learning a second language and English was one of the ones that they emphasized to the schools in London emphasize or encouraged a second language, or is that sort of the same thing as we see here?
Jack Kountouris ** 05:24
Yeah, actually, they strictly encourage it so much. I was doing French I actually switched to Spanish in around high school. But from a very early age, my primary school, we actually were learning Latin, which was a fundamental language, so they really wanted to drive language learning as early as possible.
Michael Hingson ** 05:45
Well on of course, we all know that learning languages earlier is probably easier and makes sense to do, which, which probably helps develop a broader view of the world by doing that, because I think over here, we don’t tend to really encourage as much at least when I went to school, we didn’t encourage as much the whole idea of necessarily learning a foreign language we, we did study some Spanish, but it wasn’t really something that was greatly emphasized. So it’s kind of interesting. And I learned various places in the world that in reality, it was different there than it was here.
Jack Kountouris ** 06:22
Exactly. And me doing London, me doing Latin, I think very early on, really helped me later on to develop my Spanish skills, my French, my ability to read French as well. And yeah, me just learning Latin at a very young age. really helped me develop those skills.
Michael Hingson ** 06:41
But you didn’t learn to talk southern very well, huh? No, I’m not ready. I could do could really get too into.
Jack Kountouris ** 06:51
Yeah, I speak my accent and this the only thing comes out? Yeah,
Michael Hingson ** 06:55
well, that’s okay. What did you get your college degrees in?
Jack Kountouris ** 07:00
Yeah. So I wake first my Bachelor’s my degree was in communication with a with minors in entrepreneurship and psychology as well.
Michael Hingson ** 07:12
And then masters,
Jack Kountouris ** 07:13
I’d say my master’s was was in management,
Michael Hingson ** 07:16
management. Okay. And how, how have you used those since leaving college? You’re an executive recruiter? And I would assume that in some ways, some of those skills are valuable.
Jack Kountouris ** 07:30
Yeah, well, actually, I recently thought about and I think like, my major and also my minors, they always they will come. They will come to me here in my everyday life now. Because as a recruiter, I’m communicating with people of like, all different, all different characteristics all the time. And, yeah, it’s basically about helping people try and get the right job and vice versa, helping their jobs trying to get the right people to work new jobs. So definitely, it’s more of a sales skill than I do use some psychology and like learning more about them and learning what they want. So yeah, recruiting and sales like I think it’s a it’s a great skill, to learn how to talk to people and learn to how to sell to people realize what they want, and see how you can help. Yeah,
Michael Hingson ** 08:20
well, I agree with you. It is a sales skill, and it’s a good sales skill. And, for me, having sold most of my adult life, and I’ve worked with several recruiters, I appreciate the ones who really do it well do understand sales and the psychology of selling and the various aspects of that that really make a lot of sense. So I’m excited to, to hear that, that you’re doing it and that you really do view it as kind of a sales position because I think that’s absolutely correct. So it’s something to definitely think about. So how has recruiting even find might ask, and this isn’t something that was in your questions, but I bet you know a lot about it. How’s recruiting evolved or changed with the whole advent of the pandemic?
Jack Kountouris ** 09:10
Yeah, so with the pandemic, it’s been very cutthroat. I mean, I was lucky to be able to retain some forms during 2020. During the pandemic, of course, I was furloughed for that. But yeah, things in including not very cutthroat. It was a candidate LED market in a way but also company led in terms of not many companies were hiring, but there were lots of candidates out there who wanted who wanted to start working. And not a lot of them wants to move because who wants to move during pandemic FES you’re in your job, then obviously, stay security job handling. Thing that things got really tough. The salaries and the rebate periods they weren’t they were changed a lot make things a bit harder. But yeah, the thing of recruiting and sales is you just got to just gotta keep going. And eventually, it’s law of averages, right? So eventually, the longer you do it, the more stressful come the you see
Michael Hingson ** 10:15
that things are opening more or becoming a little less stressful and the more jobs are becoming available as the pandemic, at least for the moment dies down.
Jack Kountouris ** 10:29
Yep, definitely, actually, I would say the pandemic 2020 Obviously, pandemic hit, and a lot of people lost their jobs. 2021 and 2022. People are still recovering, you could tell that some companies were were in the process of reinvigoration, and they were growing workforces again. But now in 2023, most companies are starting to start with a turn starting to do that rebuild.
Michael Hingson ** 10:58
Yeah, it’s, it’s going to be a challenge for a while, I sincerely hope that we don’t see some other form of the virus come along that we can’t deal with. So that we go back to the place where we were in 2020 and 2021. I know, I attended the National Federation of the Blind national convention in Las Vegas in 2019. But then, by the time, July came in 2020, when we would normally have a convention, of course, everything was locked down. So there was a virtual convention in 2020. And in 2021. In 2022, it opened a little bit more. So there was a hybrid kind of convention. I didn’t go again, my wife was not doing really well. And she also had rheumatoid arthritis, which meant that the whole auto immune system wasn’t as robust as it really needed to be. So I didn’t want to put her in danger by going to the convention, and a lot of people actually did get COVID. Last year at the convention, I went this year, I didn’t really hear a lot about many people actually didn’t hear about anyone who was confined to the room because they caught COVID at the convention, which I thought was good. But I think at the same time, we do need to be pretty cautious about it all.
Jack Kountouris ** 12:19
Very cautious. I mean, who wants a number of very young teachers come out of nowhere?
Michael Hingson ** 12:24
Yeah. And the problem is that, that it can if some strange thing occurs, so we’ll see. But I’m, I’m really happy and excited to hear that things are starting to open and it makes your job a little bit easier. Because not only do you have candidates, but you have places to start to put them which is of course what you want to do.
Jack Kountouris ** 12:48
Yes, of course.
Michael Hingson ** 12:49
So at the same time, however, when you were at Wake Forest, you developed an interest in something else, we sort of alluded to it without talking about it. We’ll call it the elephant in the room. It’s the fun thing in the room. But why don’t you? You know, tell us a little bit about how you got into it and what it’s all about?
Jack Kountouris ** 13:13
Yeah, the fun elephant in the room? Yeah. Obviously. Well, so me and my friend in business school, we loved playing board games a lot. And, and eventually, we were like playing board games. And we were thinking about, okay, how can we make this board game different? How can we make our own spin on this board game? Yeah. So eventually, we were developing and developing a new game. And then after graduation, of course, that was when COVID was at its height. So we will just indoors, we had to wait to no social life. So just being in the room all the time. So yeah, we took it amongst ourselves to just use that free time, that surplus free time, we had to just develop the board game and actually make a product, make a business and get it out there.
Michael Hingson ** 14:03
So tell us about the business and what you have so far.
Jack Kountouris ** 14:07
Of course, well, so the business we we have is a cold dimension bowl games. Our first board game invasion, the conquest of kings, was actually released last May. And we have around like hundreds of customers right now. They primarily nationwide, but some in the UK and some as well in Europe. But yeah, we still have that one game that’s going strong sales are going strong for the net. But we also have a couple others in development. Of course, it’s still very early on for these, a couple of games, a couple of expansions that we have in plans for the next couple of years
Michael Hingson ** 14:46
in the world of technology and so on why board games as opposed to maybe creating an electronic game?
Jack Kountouris ** 14:55
Yeah, so actually, this ties into what we talked about, about the pandemic Because mostly we’re just stuck inside, we actually read so many articles about how board games were bringing people together how board games like board games offered, offered something that you couldn’t really get like virtually. And if you were to stay indoors, at nights when board games came lots of popular I mean, it was a way to have your friends hang out of family without really having to go outside. So yeah, we actually saw in articles there actually a spike in both games during the pandemic. And also earlier, we noticed that the board games was a huge market. I mean, there was a there were particular niches around combat strategy board games, or uncooperative board games. And yeah, there was a huge market to take opportunity of.
Michael Hingson ** 15:51
So you, you created a game. And so it got published, sort of more when the pandemic was was slowing down, but you’re seeing still pretty good sales of it, and so on. Yeah, so
Jack Kountouris ** 16:09
pretty good. We’re going to a few conventions were up in is social media. So Instagram, followership, and conduct out? But yeah, primarily, conventions we’re doing? We’re still seeing the ad interest. We’ve gotten a couple of views from BoardGameGeek reviewers, and from just board game, people that habit. So yeah, we’re seeing some success out there, we definitely have a game that people people really tend to enjoy. And actually, when you know, you have the product that people like, I mean, that’s, that’s good to get going with that.
Michael Hingson ** 16:48
What kind of comments are you getting about invaders?
Jack Kountouris ** 16:54
Yes, so we’re getting, we’re getting good reviews, I mean, we’d get we’re getting some like, some area of critiques. Obviously, it was just me and my friends. So prior to that, we have no book, we have no board game experience in development. And we didn’t really use Kickstarter, and most board games that are becoming new use Kickstarter, that’s where they get the border map, or word of mouth. So us not using Kickstarter and choosing the Self Publish. That was already, in my opinion, a big hurdle that we had to accomplish. But yeah, once we got the reviews coming in, we actually got good, better insights. People who had reviewed like combat strategy games, before, they talked about our Resource Management, they talked about a combat system, there was actually one review we got, and the only downside of it was the size of a box. So yeah, people generally seem to get and seem to like our game. But on the flip side of that, obviously, there were some mistakes were made, like, little mistakes, and like the rule book and all that. And that just comes from us not having the experience of writing rule books of doing design of doing art for the bucks. So yeah, definitely, I will just improve and stuff to learn from for our next few games.
Michael Hingson ** 18:21
So what did you learn about what you did wrong? And what did you do wrong as far as creating the rules? And what would you do differently next time?
Jack Kountouris ** 18:30
Yeah, so what we did is we did like a primary primary rulebook. But yeah, what some people have been saying is, we need more like a reference guide. So what our rule but did is it did a good job in explaining the nuts and bolts of the rules. But it didn’t, it didn’t like the right really provide reference that you could use here in the game. And that’s what it’s all about. Because when you’re when you haven’t about the game, and you sign a game from scratch, it’s like you need to you need to go to a rulebook every other time to remember this just for reference for the
Michael Hingson ** 19:07
for the rules, until you get used to it. Exactly.
Jack Kountouris ** 19:11
So adoption. That’s the thing we’ve been working on a lot.
Michael Hingson ** 19:16
So the next time do you think you would use Kickstarter? Does that do you think give you any advantages that you didn’t get to utilize in developing the first game?
Jack Kountouris ** 19:28
Yeah, so primarily, the advantage of Kickstarter that we missed out on was just the word of mouth because bought in geek that that’s why the whole community of board gamers and particularly our target market demographic is and they advertised Kickstarter a lot. So they would have games like people don’t even play and people just see on Kickstarter, feeling like it’s interesting. And that’s where you get the word of mouth. That’s where you get investment as well. So I think for next few games, we We’ll definitely think about about Kickstarter. Because obviously, when you have a product like this as, as opposed to a service, that means word of mouth is really everything you need to do everything you can to sell that product.
Michael Hingson ** 20:16
And in a sense, you get to generate some revenue upfront, which also helps you start to see how much interest there might be in the game.
Jack Kountouris ** 20:27
Exactly, yes. And yeah, that money aspect of it. It’s it’s definitely a major factor. Yeah, if there’s investment in the original kick slow, that means, okay, we’ve got something then that gives us so much confidence. So yeah, I think definitely, that’s, that’s the primary thing we have learned from self publishing. So we can progress in the future.
Michael Hingson ** 20:53
As anyone yet or any company approached you to talk about, gee, maybe we should buy this and make it a bigger thing, or have you gotten to that kind of point yet?
Jack Kountouris ** 21:06
No, yeah, we’re not we’re not there yet. Yeah, I mean, we have talked to like retailers brick and mortar brick and mortars, but no, like, really serious conversations yet? Yeah. Who knows? Eventually, something like that might happen.
Michael Hingson ** 21:22
Have you looked at major resale or sales places where you can get them to pick up the game and sell it?
Jack Kountouris ** 21:31
Of course, and and many of the convention actually, we’ve done have been taken place at board game stores. We have one influencer, actually who her son runs a board game store. So when we had him review again, he actually published he actually split the games board games store. So lots of customers could come up. So yeah, board game stores, cafes, board, game cafes like that. And conventions, anywhere, we can display the game really. So people public can go buy it and say, Hey, that’s a game. I don’t know that. That’s
Michael Hingson ** 22:06
a modality. And again, the name of the game is
Jack Kountouris ** 22:10
invasion, that Congress, the Kings,
Michael Hingson ** 22:12
the conquest of kings, which is intriguing in of itself, which, which is great. I know that in terms of doing something like this, there had to be a lot of logistics, a lot of coordination. So you and your friend, I gather both went to Wake Forest.
Jack Kountouris ** 22:33
Yes, in a master’s program, we both did the masters and management. Cool.
Michael Hingson ** 22:39
And so what really got you to decide that you wanted to start a company, because that’s a pretty major decision. And I appreciate that you, you too, were in an environment where certainly doing something like this could be encouraged. But what made you decide to really knuckle down and go through the rigors of starting a company?
Jack Kountouris ** 23:01
Yeah, so I remember on your earlier question, I talked about my communication and how I use the psychology mind I had. But also this is where that entrepreneurship minor ad came in. I did so much at Wake Forest, in terms of entrepreneurship, I kind of like really knew that at some point, there will be some product or some service that I would just, I would just take and run with. And honestly, I didn’t really know it will be a board game until the opportunity. Opportunity came along. I mean, I really wasn’t a board gamer before I met my friend from from the business school. So yeah, I think the opportunity arose because we were in business school, we have that atmosphere of like learning and requiring something better. And we had the business acumen as well, we were being taught every day. And yeah, we had the passion as well. So if you take the passion and combine it with business, it really makes for good environment and good atmosphere to actually take something, take something you love and run with it in the sense that you can actually make it make it something.
Michael Hingson ** 24:14
What’s the name of your company?
Jack Kountouris ** 24:16
It’s dimension board games.
Michael Hingson ** 24:18
That’s right dimension board games. So people go look for Dimension board games and by invasion, the conquest of kings. But anyway, that’s another story. We’ll leave that for people to do. But I go back to the question about electronic versions of games. One of the things that I’ve noticed, and even in some games that are accessible for for blind people, one of the things that I see with electronic games is you can buy more things or buy tokens or pay to get more resources and so on. Does any of that kind of thing exist in the board game world or is that something that you think is really necessary to would focus on that would give you some additional revenue?
Jack Kountouris ** 25:04
Yeah, of course. So we have thought about certain add ons like that maybe you can add like more pieces add, like, add things to establish other abilities in the game. And we have definitely thought about in the long run, but right now we we just want to keep at the physical physical board game. Eventually, when we get popular, I mean, it’s not if it’s when we get popular, when we have a follower base, when we have that those many people playing our game, we will think about introducing something like that where people can really be on the lookout for for add ons for extra abilities and all that for the game. But uh, yeah, right now we just have a main focus on just just word of mouth and getting our games out there.
Michael Hingson ** 25:53
So what was it like starting a company with a friend I mean, it was an adventure. And I regard life as an adventure. So clearly, you all the two of you started on on a great adventure, and you’ve stuck with it. And that doesn’t always happen either. So you guys obviously get along? Well?
Jack Kountouris ** 26:12
Yeah, we do. I mean, it was, it was really fun working with one of my best friends, and still really is fun to work with one of our best friends. Right now. We still do play tests, we still talk about the business, we still talk about new games we will have in production. But yeah, it was great not just to have a friend as a partner. But Tableau have a partner in general, it means that you’re not really alone in innovation that you have when you have someone else who’s who’s working on the same thing. Makes you not have those anxieties and have that belief. Okay, I believe it. There’s also someone else who believes it. So it makes you have more confidence in what you’re wanting to do. And yeah, obviously working with my mom, our best friends, it was it was fantastic. And we had the we have like similar personalities well, so he can always like, talk off of each other and always build on each other. And yeah, it was absolutely fantastic.
Michael Hingson ** 27:14
So where does your friend lives? He actually
Jack Kountouris ** 27:17
moved out to Denver, Colorado after graduation for Mike,
Michael Hingson ** 27:22
and what got you to Los Angeles?
Jack Kountouris ** 27:25
Well, after my graduation from work, I actually went back to London for a little bit. I worked in London, as a recruiter, I started my recruitment career. And then eventually, this past year, just over one year now, one year ago now, while my companies in London, they were opening a new LA office. So I was still young enough to take the road Shanthi I’d always thought about maybe trying out the west coast and trying out in LA. So yeah, I basically my boss was moving a few of us to start over that office in LA and I was on with the lungs shows. So we saw the LA office. And that’s that’s how I moved.
Michael Hingson ** 28:09
And so in a sense, it isn’t is challenging from a timezone standpoint is it might be because you’re only an hour difference.
Jack Kountouris ** 28:19
So now, now, it’s really not as you come out when I was in London, and my friend was in Denver, a seven hour gap. Yeah, that was that was that was hard to do. But now it’s much better with us only we won’t be in one hour apart. So whenever I want to talk about a new game idea, or talk about it and you new marketing strategy, I can just call them and we can say, oh, that’s that’s capable of having to call each other.
Michael Hingson ** 28:49
Do you do that on the phone? Or on Zoom? Or how do you generally chat?
Jack Kountouris ** 28:54
When generally and zoom when, because you
Michael Hingson ** 28:57
can cat video easily just maybe
Jack Kountouris ** 28:58
an idea of what we’ll do a phone call but but generally it has been zoom. So we can really like brainstorm every little idea we have. Make sure it’s make sure we’re doing well. But
Michael Hingson ** 29:12
yeah, and you can you can see each other which makes a lot of sense.
Jack Kountouris ** 29:16
Michael Hingson ** 29:19
So what kind of challenges though do you face since you have a full time job? And we appreciate I gather, you’re probably taking some time from your full time job to be here this afternoon since it’s only about four o’clock in the afternoon, but what kind of challenges do you face and issues do you have to encounter when you’ve got a full time job? Yet? You’re trying to run a company which can also probably be somewhat of a full time job as well.
Jack Kountouris ** 29:49
Yeah, definitely. It’s it’s a struggle taking the time, and especially since I moved so recently, so when I just moved to LA and this was like last night Summer, it was it was tough to get going to know I had the job. But no, also we had to keep the ball game business going. So took a lot of like strict, regimented, scheduling. And just, I’ve list like, right by me on my wall of everyday things I need to do after work things I need to shake off after work every day. So yeah, you just need to be strict and regimented about it. And honestly, like, it was tough signing it up tough when I had the change. But when I, when I applied myself, and gotten in the habit of it, it really didn’t become as time consuming.
Michael Hingson ** 30:41
So dimension board games started in what 2022? Was it
Jack Kountouris ** 30:47
started in starting 2021. Actually, 2021 innovation was released in 2020. Right?
Michael Hingson ** 30:53
But in 2021, you were still over in London,
Jack Kountouris ** 30:57
2021, I was still over in London, my friend was in Denver. And that’s when that’s when predominantly most of the game development and operations stuff happened. So that was a real challenge released in May of last year.
Michael Hingson ** 31:14
So that was a real challenge, though, because then you did have the timezone issues of being seven hours apart. That must have been fun.
Jack Kountouris ** 31:22
Yeah, that was that was really fun. And I’m sure you know this, but because Denver seven hours behind that’s basically meant that because I had a full time job on weekdays, we can’t do anything, because because when I came back from work, he was at work and vice versa. And when he came back from work, I was asleep. So that basically meant Saturdays, Sundays and Fridays night and Friday nights were the most optimal time to have those zoom meetings began. Again, this was when we were we were just regrouping from the pandemic. So I socialized we’re still trying to get back there. So it was easier to to damage these communications.
Michael Hingson ** 32:09
Yeah, certainly is easier now. Now. Do you have a family? A wife or anything?
Jack Kountouris ** 32:16
Yeah, so that’s, that’s, that’s a good question. Yeah, I have I have a life.
Michael Hingson ** 32:23
Are you married or anything like that? No, I’m not. So So you still have more of your own time than if you had a wife and a family that you’d have to deal with? So that probably helps a little bit too.
Jack Kountouris ** 32:36
Exactly. Yeah, that did help. Yeah. For me, like family was just my parents, my brother and my sister in law, my grandma granddad, my grandma. Yeah, no, no girlfriend yet.
Michael Hingson ** 32:49
No girlfriend yet, someday, but it’ll happen. I know, for me, my wife passed away last November and my time became more my own. So working with accessiBe, which is in Israel 10 hours ahead. Sometimes, we get meetings very early in the morning, my time because they’re 10 hours ahead. And so, for example, yesterday on Sunday, I had a meeting at seven in the morning, Sunday, this just yesterday. And it’s easier to do when I know I don’t have to worry about disturbing somebody else, just waking up a dog and a cat and they cope. But with a family when we were married for 40 years, it was always the thought of working in one place. And oftentimes I would be on one coast and company would be on the other coast. And I was transferred to various places to do things for companies. That happened through the World Trade Center. And of course, being in the World Trade Center on September 11. And then it wasn’t such an issue because although I did for a while before September 11 work for companies when I was in New York, and they were in California, afterward, it was much more an issue where we were able to deal with stuff a lot closer. So I worked in, in California in Northern California for Guide Dogs for the Blind for a while, but we live there. And then afterward, it was just me running my own business that Michael Hingson group, so we didn’t have to really be so challenged by different time zones. Until accessiBe came along, which they did in January of 2021. So for two years, it was a little bit of an issue or almost two years. But you know, there is something to be said for your own time. And so you can really do things on your schedule and you do have a friend you have to work with but still you guys are obviously working it out.
Jack Kountouris ** 34:44
Yeah, we’re trying. It’s a struggle sometimes. But it’s really great working with all my best friends and it’s really great. Doing something that you love and when you’re in the business of fun and games it’s it’s really hard to separate the fun from the business.
Michael Hingson ** 35:01
Well, hopefully the business becomes fun. Yep.
Jack Kountouris ** 35:07
It’s it’s starting to be like we’re seeing we’re seeing the success coming. And that’s, that’s fantastic. Plus now,
Michael Hingson ** 35:15
that is exciting. It’s a great thing to be able to do. So what are you learning from your first game? And as you go into future games, what are you learning about game development? There’s a lot that obviously has to go into it. So what makes a perfect game? And how do you get there?
Jack Kountouris ** 35:32
Oh, yeah, so so much stuff that goes into it. So many mistakes, people land on Yang, game game development, specifically, it’s a lot of trial and error, a lot of looking after loopholes and really gets tedious sometimes. But yeah, to to give you give you a little bit of perspective, one of the things one of the ways that me and my friend works so much together is he has, so he has the knack for, for thinking big and a knack for thinking of the big thinking of the big ideas, starting like out wide. And I’ve not to like bring him bring him in. So having the small ideas. So what I do generally is find the loopholes. So what he would do is he he’d say, okay, Jack, I got an amazing idea. And then we’d be brainstorming a lot. And we’d be thinking about how to make that idea. accessible in the game, make the idea work out. So it’s not too much in gameplay, not too much, you understand that? It can work out in the game in the physical hand game when they align too many loopholes to take advantage of.
Michael Hingson ** 36:45
So do you get to the point is you’re developing the game where you actually, the two of you just spend time playing the game to look for the loopholes, or the things that are working or not working?
Jack Kountouris ** 36:59
Yeah, actually, that’s predominantly what is all about. So I would say that there’s one stage on which is thinking, thinking ideas, getting ideas from all over the place. And then we enter another stage where we take all those ideas, and like, what, maybe one by one or two by two, so we make sure that no ideas like convoluted with each other, we will test them out. And we will see how it works in the game and see if there’s a way to make it simpler. Because one of the things we were noting in game development was there was a time where our game was super complicated and super, super long as well. This was very early on. So when we were really just out of ideation, really. So every, there was a point that every play test we made, we developed like little nuances to make the game simpler and make the game shorter.
Michael Hingson ** 37:59
How long does it take to play the game? Now, if someone sits down or some people, how many people can play it at one time on the board?
Jack Kountouris ** 38:10
So yeah, the base game is three to four, but it can be played with five as well as six to base game is three, four players Tamriel played with two players in the world. But it really hits a smooth point with three, four or five players.
Michael Hingson ** 38:26
How long does it take to play a complete game?
Jack Kountouris ** 38:29
It here’s the thing it read really depends. Actually. Our game is military combat. So it depends what the characteristics of the players. So if if there are four players playing who are who are really outright combat and really aggressive from from the beginning, it’s a shorter game.
Michael Hingson ** 38:48
Somebody gets killed off soon. Yeah,
Jack Kountouris ** 38:51
of course. And that happened that happened a lot of times. And yeah, on the flip side, if there if there was a game where for people who like really, really like to build up their kingdoms before they fight and really want to be be cautious about that about fighting, then you have the longer games. Usually average is about two hours, maybe two and a half. But if it’s your first time trying to figure out the rulebook, it’s not too
Michael Hingson ** 39:18
bad. It’s a it’s an evenings entertainment.
Jack Kountouris ** 39:23
Exactly. And then some games out there. Some games I love out there that I love them. But that seven hours, eight hours. It’s insane sometimes.
Michael Hingson ** 39:33
Yeah, I like Monopoly and monopoly you can do fairly quickly in a couple of hours and have a lot of fun with it. But the world has advanced a lot since Atlantic City and Boardwalk and Park Place. Yeah. So what what’s the basic premise? Or what’s the process of the game? Can you tell us a little bit about the plot and so on?
Jack Kountouris ** 39:53
Yeah, so the basic premise of the game is you have the medieval can them. So you have a kingdom of castles and roads and castle walls between castles. So you try to build that up. And the way the map is you have the resources. And the resources are inherently in the map. So the placement of your castles and where you build your castle where you build your roads, they get you that those resources and they really, they really help develop, okay, who you’ll be as an empire, what kind of resources you getting. And then the next slide, which will combat aspect of it, is you have a king. And also you have soldiers who kind of follow the king and the aim of the game was to be able to take other kings crowns. And the way you do actually you use the soldiers going along with the king to create armies and all that try to siege people’s castle that and try to kill people’s kings kill people’s armies. So yeah, that there are really two, two parts of the game that the first half of it or should I say first third of it, is just building up your kingdom, trying to manage the resource you’re getting. And then the next two thirds, you’re getting into siege and castles getting into getting castles and getting into actual combat which which is is fantastic. It’s a fantastic way to the game.
Michael Hingson ** 41:17
So all kings no women.
Jack Kountouris ** 41:20
Yeah, so that’s the thing. We did think about doing, like Queen peace and maybe for the expansions. But because we just wanted one, one overarching piece to be like the most important thing. We’re like between names. And then we think of it like King King was King seemed so perfect. We weren’t thinking about that as a downside. Is it? Maybe not. Not general Germany equal. But yeah, we were thinking about games like chess. Well, obviously, the king is the main piece that you have to you have to take to win the game. So you’re like, Okay, it’s medieval. People understand that the king is the main piece. So yeah, right. Okay, that name
Michael Hingson ** 42:05
at the same time. And chess, the queen is probably the most powerful piece on the board. Oh, yeah. So well, well, so the real question is, the very serious question is, who wins most of the games? You are your friend?
Jack Kountouris ** 42:20
Oh, I can say quite confidently. I do. There you go. Actually, it was it was funny in the in the very beginning, it was having such a hard time with the game. In the VA, in the very beginning, there was such a disparity between me and him. But yeah, occasionally, like he got good. And now we’re like really equal at the game. So yeah, I won’t answer who wins between me and him. But between me, him and two other friends, it’s usually either me or him who went,
Michael Hingson ** 42:54
there you go. Well, the other part about it is though, you each bring, it sounds like different skills to the company and different skills to the game design, which is great, because you feed off each other. Exactly, we feed
Jack Kountouris ** 43:09
on each other, feed off each other. And it’s amazing, like personally and professionally. And in the games where we feed each other. And whenever he thinks an idea, it’s like I think of the idea at the same time. We like easily able to like like connect, and really. So he says, Oh, I have this idea. And then I listen and say Oh, whatever. And he’s like I was just thinking of that. And it’s just great to because once we start that train, it’s like I I am crane. So we started different locations. But we just come together with the days we’re having, and it’s fantastic to be able to brainstorm like that.
Michael Hingson ** 43:51
Yeah. And it’s always great when you have somebody, somebody who can really work with you that well, you guys were very fortunate that you found each other and are able to put all of this together.
Jack Kountouris ** 44:07
Michael Hingson ** 44:09
So in in the whole process of constructing the game, where’s the where’s the game actually manufactured these days?
Jack Kountouris ** 44:18
So the game was originally manufactured in China. I mean, we were we were looking into into local local manufacturers. But honestly, for the money purposes, China was a blast. So the way we haven’t worked is we had the units manufactured in China. And then we store them in different phone centers, one on the West Coast and one near the east coast as well so we can easily be able to distribute to our customers.
Michael Hingson ** 44:46
What I was wondering. And the reason I asked the question is what kind of affected the pandemic have for you in terms of supply chains and all that and especially since You came in as far as having a game on the market, closer to the end of the pandemic, but still, we keep hearing about supply chain problems and all that. So how’s that affected you? And how have you dealt with it?
Jack Kountouris ** 45:13
Of course, like I’d say, even though our game was actually released, like, towards the end of the pandemic, we are in the midst of we are in the midst of development, and we and they were in the midst of production all throughout 2021, even 2020. Yeah, so supply chains were huge problem, especially having a ship from China. Huge shipping delays. And it really was tough to really work it out. So initially, we actually opened up pre orders, open pre orders for the game in November of 2021, just to get the holiday holiday customers. But yeah, because of the supply chains, and because of problems with production overseas, and delays and delays. It wasn’t until May. And this is late May that he was actually producing it was actually available. So unfortunately, we had some customers who had pre ordered the game for the holidays in December, and only were able to get the game in May. But uh, yeah, it really was tough to work out.
Michael Hingson ** 46:21
How about now are more of the supply chain issues and so on? less of a problem.
Jack Kountouris ** 46:29
So you know, it’s less of that problem. But it’s it’s a it’s a different problem. Really. It’s it’s obviously like, like political situations and all that. It’s, it’s still a problem, like getting the shipping on time, huge delays, price increases, well, we’re worth manufactories B, it’s a different problem than pandemic was. So everything that was lingering from the pandemic guy in supply chains, I think that’s that’s become minimized.
Michael Hingson ** 47:02
But things seem to be going along pretty well. Right now, though, overall.
Jack Kountouris ** 47:09
As well as it can be. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 47:11
Do you see improving, though, over time, or is it just kind of a steady state of challenges of one sort or another, but you’re able to cope with them?
Jack Kountouris ** 47:22
Yeah, status? I think the latter, honestly, sleep challenges. I mean, what were aware of the problems? We manufactured our first game in China. But yeah, honestly, like stuff has made us wonder. The second or maybe third is we’ll try to manufacture them locally. Because, yeah, China, that was obviously when we were scrounging for money. And we were no, you’re looking for investment. And, and the price in China was easy to manufacture. But just to optimize shipping and optimize time and all that we might be looking for affordable options that are local to the states and in the country to help speed things up rate.
Michael Hingson ** 48:06
How much does the game cost if one wants to buy it?
Jack Kountouris ** 48:09
Yes. So the game goes format goes for market rate of 59 $99. We do have continual seasonal discounts going on, at least discount for I think 30% We had another 20% discount at some point earlier this year. So yeah, we do run discounts every now and then our Instagram channels and Facebook platforms.
Michael Hingson ** 48:37
Well, is it is it a game that’s also available on places like Amazon, which is obviously a big selling potential place?
Jack Kountouris ** 48:47
Now it is known among nationally. What we’re doing is like E commerce. Because we’re still in that stage. We’re just getting a word of mouth from just getting the start. But yeah, we have looked at Amazon foam and Amazon FBA and so many hurdles to jump through. It’s it’s a plan, but it’s a plan for the future.
Michael Hingson ** 49:10
What did you do to stand out? Um, clearly there are a lot of board games, there are a lot of demands that are being put on people’s attentions and so on. What did you do to stand out to get people to pay attention to invasion?
Jack Kountouris ** 49:27
Mason? Yeah, that’s a very good question. So that was I talked about how we didn’t do a Kickstarter how we didn’t really have to word of mouth. So that was already like, we were starting with, we assign a 15 back 15 feet back from the sideline there. And it was it was really tough to get the word of mouth. But yeah, I think the main stuff for us is we’d have we’d have influences we have with us we got on board games cake. We have people that we ask for review of the game, obviously in the beginning and the word of mouth Ain’t from like friends and family. But yet it’s one of those things. And we have the conventions as well. But the form of those things that you need to slow and steady wins the race, right? You need to begin from like nothing and you need to slowly build it up like an Instagram posts a day in the in the very beginning and really wasn’t doing much. But now it’s really getting more traction as we have more photo followership. And now we have more views on both games tickets more reputable and more credible for for people in the board games community. And, yeah, so pretty much slow and steady, slow and steady wins the race.
Michael Hingson ** 50:42
You said something earlier than say you didn’t do anything with Kickstarter, and this and so on you self published, which I appreciate. But what comes to mind is that what you are doing, and what is being done is regarding your game, very much like what goes into typical publishing, especially if you’re doing self publishing, you got to do all the marketing, you’ve got to do all the demand creation, and so on. And so I’m hearing from you the same things that I hear from a lot of people we did with with my second book that we sell published, but even our first book, you have to be involved in the marketing habit. And you’re gonna always be the best salespeople for the for the game.
Jack Kountouris ** 51:29
Yeah, of course. And me, again, being being a recruiter, as my job my day job, it really brings out this this salesperson in me and I’m selling something I love. So I speak to the credibility of it. But yeah, Kickstarter, when you take power that way, it’s pretty much a marketing platform. So we just had to do that without the board game community behind us. So that was the that was a hurdle for us.
Michael Hingson ** 52:00
How large is the board game community? I mean, you, you’ve indicated the board games are still very popular. But how large? Is it compared to like electronic games and so on? Or is it just two completely different worlds? So it doesn’t really give you the ability to compare the two.
Jack Kountouris ** 52:18
So it is different? Well, you can’t really make a direct comparison between the two. But it’s a it’s a large community. I mean, if you go on board games gig gaming caravan, or the community does their communities out there on Discord and such, there’s so many board games, so many niche board games, and especially indie board games in the board, new creators. So many people just create board games, just like that. Get get board games out there. So often. It’s really like an enrich community. There’s so much out there so many niches of board games, resource boundary and combat cooperative, competitive. It’s really a huge fantasy. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 53:03
And so the more you can do to break in and come up with plots that are going to intrigue people, the better it is.
Jack Kountouris ** 53:10
Exactly, exactly. You just need to need to have game ideas and given to people.
Michael Hingson ** 53:17
We talked before this podcast last time we met about making it accessible. And I would love to explore how and if it would be doable to make the game accessible. So blind people could play it. And there are some people that, that do some things and making card games and other games successful. So it’s something to explore, not sure that it would be a huge market as such, but it would be great if, when in the future, you produce games, you can make them accessible right from the outset. So you have one game that everyone can play, whether they can see the board, or feel the board, and that you just have the same game that’s available for both. And I still think that that’s the best way to deal with accessibility rather than having a different product for, say people who are blind as opposed to people who are not it. It’s a unique sort of thing, but it would make for a very interesting discussion point and dialogue.
Jack Kountouris ** 54:17
Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, different different things we can do. Obviously, we have the rulebook. And if we can transfer it to braille, and I really becomes in our game, like I’m going to make the comparison to chess. Although there are some people who who know chess so much they can picture board in their heads, they can picture it and they can just make the move in their heads because they remember where everything is. Really becomes a lot like that. So maybe eventually, people can really feel the feel of Matt feel the Gameboy to know where everything is. And at that point, just just know what moves to make, based on the map pick As honestly, there is a very simple way with the resources to make the map able to make the map accessible, if you just feeling what what kind of resources I were
Michael Hingson ** 55:12
something to explore Well, if you’d like to explore that and examine it in the future, let me know. Because I think it would be fun to try to connect you with people who might be able to help with that. For you. What have you learned from this experience? So far? In terms of creating a business? What, what kind of mistakes have you made in doing the business? Or what kind of lessons have you learned that are going to help you as you go forward?
Jack Kountouris ** 55:38
Yeah, so Well, one lesson I have is to really have like a partner that you trust. And just in general, our partner, I spoke to this earlier, but they’ll speak to it again. There’s so much confidence when you know, there’s at least one other person who has the same vision and believes in the same thing you do. It just really helps so much. The Void is anxiety, saying, Oh, what if no one likes it? Oh, what have I can’t do this. But yeah, other than that, just? And yeah, you’ve probably heard this from the perspective of business people out there that many entrepreneurs, just the famous thing is they say, many people just fail at that first. And the first Ventures we have, we have made a few mistakes with which we will definitely learn from Wait, which costs, which actually costing us money. So we learned the hard way. But I think honestly, being an entrepreneur, having a business like this, learning the hard way is really goes with the function of it.
Michael Hingson ** 56:45
What has all of this taught you that you can use in your full time regular job of being a recruiter? Because I’m sure that this must give you some empathy or better understanding of some of the things and are some of the places where you might be sending people I would think.
Jack Kountouris ** 57:04
Yeah, so in recruitment, won’t. What I will say is, sometimes you see people with CVS, and it’s really black and white, sometimes the hiring manager, you see people with CVS, you see they’re doing this passion project on the side, you see what they’re doing on the side. And many of you will be like, Okay, what’s relevant in that, because obviously, if you’re doing something on the side, it’s not really a full time job. But yet, it’s given me a chance to have more patience and learn more about the the individual people not just about what they’ve been doing, how long they’ve been doing, and what they’ve accomplished, which, obviously, the name of the game in terms of equipment, but learn more about them on the people side of things, learn more about what drives them to learn more about their motivations.
Michael Hingson ** 57:52
Studying psychology is a wonderful thing. But there’s nothing like living it and seeing it in action to really be a great tool for you teaching yourself how to do it better.
Jack Kountouris ** 58:04
Yep, that’s exactly right, Michael.
Michael Hingson ** 58:07
It’s, it’s as good as it gets. It’s kind of fun. What’s the future for Dimension board games then? So you’re obviously working on games, anything you can talk about?
Jack Kountouris ** 58:17
Yeah, a few things I can talk about. I don’t want to talk talk too much, because it’s pretty much in development. But we do have a few expansions may be coming. Another edition possibly for like next two years, or 2324 25. And eventually, we’d want to be in a place where we can just come up with with different games and be able to reuse, create the games we love and see if they’re good enough.
Michael Hingson ** 58:50
Do you think your games will continue to be sort of battle and conquest type games? Or are there other kinds of plots you might explore?
Jack Kountouris ** 58:59
What I will say is ones, the ones we are thinking now and then backbend and the ones in development. They are combat. They are they are similar to the first game, but we do we are think about one that’s that sets more than in this space mindset, which is more of a 2025 thing. We haven’t really begun develop development on that so much, because we’ve just been focusing on invasion and the expansions and the other ones we have more immediately. But a yet a long, long term. Long term goal is to be thinking of games in another situation. So space and stuff
Michael Hingson ** 59:38
like that. Question. Strategy games, though, are pretty popular. And so I’m not surprised.
Jack Kountouris ** 59:43
Exactly, exactly. And if if we have a chance to create a classic game like Monopoly or Scrabble, that’s more mainstream, then that’d be fantastic as well.
Michael Hingson ** 59:54
Well, this is absolutely been fun. And as I said, I’ve never been able to have discussion like this, and I’ve learned a lot. And you’ve also given us some wonderful things to think about just good life lessons about entrepreneurship and the fact that when you work on something, you have to deal with setbacks. But at the same time, you need to look forward and move forward. And you’ve clearly done that you and your, your partner have done a lot of that, which is really exciting. And I appreciate the, the lessons and the thoughts that you’ve brought to us. If people want to learn more about invasion and learn more about you, and so on. How do they do that?
Jack Kountouris ** 1:00:35
So yeah, I’m obviously you can look me up on LinkedIn, Jack Kountouris or on Facebook or any of the socials. But for dimension, board games, our Instagram handles at dimension board games, our URL is dimensionboardgames.com. Very simple like that. And also, we have a link from them to voting Schaik on our website, so you can see the more in depth reviews of the game on the invasion, the Congress, the Kings on board game, board games kick. So if you’re looking for reviews of the game, just go to bogging games geek or even go to a Instagram page, because eventually, because sometimes we do post some reviews out there.
Michael Hingson ** 1:01:19
spell your name so people can find you easily if they want to go to LinkedIn, and so on
Jack Kountouris ** 1:01:24
J A C K K O U N T O U R I S
Michael Hingson ** 1:01:34
So hunt down Jack and learn about invasion, the conquest of kings and dimension board games. And that sounds like there’s a lot of exciting stuff coming up. And I’m going to try to keep up with it. And I’m hoping that we can maybe work together to make something accessible. I think that we don’t as blind people get to share a lot of that stuff. And sometimes a few games are made somewhat accessible, or sometimes they’re made fairly accessible, but it’s still a small population compared to what’s out there. So it would be fun to see some games come out right from the outset that worked for everyone.
Jack Kountouris ** 1:02:16
Thanks so much, Michael. Well, I
Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17
really appreciate it. And I appreciate you listening to us out there or watching us if you’re doing it on YouTube. We really would love your comments, please feel free to send me any comments and thoughts and emails you have, you can reach me at Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcasts. And Michael hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. Please give us a five star rating. We appreciate your ratings. We appreciate your reviews. And please not only rate but give us reviews. We love that. And I’m sure that Jack would love it if you say nice wonderful things about this when you hear it because that’ll help what he’s doing as well and we very much admire what you’re doing. So I want to thank you one more time for being here and taking your time to come and talk to us about the game and what you’re doing.
Jack Kountouris ** 1:03:20
Thanks so much, Michael And thanks, everyone for listening.
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:27
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.