Episode 163 – Unstoppable Marketer and Problem Solver with Eric Dates

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I am always fascinated to meet and talk with people on Unstoppable Mindset who thought they knew what they wanted to do in life only to discover that their path went in an alternative direction. Meet Eric Dates who is just such a person. Eric grew up in the Los Angeles area. He was active in sports and also he was a musician. He went to Ohio State where he played volleyball on the 2011 championship team.

After college Eric thought he wanted to go into the hospitality industry as he loved, as he put it “the diversity of people and the diversity of possibilities”. As he tells us, his idea of work lasted four months. After that, he realized his knowledge of marketing was better suited elsewhere.

Our conversation is far-ranging, but we do talk a lot about marketing and sales. Marketing discussions go far outside dealing with products, however. I think you will be intrigued by what Eric has to say especially about life and how we should progress going forward.

About the Guest:

Eric Dates, a proud resident in Spring Hill, TN, is a multifaceted professional with a storied history of achievement and leadership. A former Division I volleyball player at Ohio State, Eric was part of the national championship team in 2011, marking a significant milestone early in his life. His competitive spirit and teamwork were not confined to the volleyball court, though, and they have since become defining attributes in his professional career.

Eric’s journey took a melodious turn as he embarked on a successful yet short career as a touring musician. This unique experience endowed him with a new perspective, a creative mindset, and an appreciation for the harmonious blend of rhythm and discipline. As his career evolved, Eric discovered his true calling: fostering growth in early to mid-stage startups. With his inherent problem-solving skills and penchant for teamwork, he has contributed to the flourishing of several startups, paving their paths toward achieving their full growth potential.

Currently, Eric serves as the Sr. Director of Revenue Marketing at Justt, a forward-thinking fintech company dedicated to helping merchants recapture revenue lost to chargebacks. His love for problem-solving thrives in this challenging environment, and he relishes living in the trenches with his team, building, improving, and innovating. Startups resonate with Eric’s professional ethos as they offer him a space to think holistically and make a tangible impact. It’s here that his passion, intellect, and entrepreneurial spirit come to the fore.

Outside of his professional endeavors, Eric cherishes his role as a husband and father. Alongside his wife, Laura, he is raising two wonderful children, Bella (8) and Harlan (1), and navigates the beautiful labyrinth that is life.

Ways to connect with Eric:

Linkedin URL: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ecdates/

Company Website: Justt.ai

About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.


accessiBe Links
https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson ** 01:20
Well, hi, and here we are once again with unstoppable mindset. Glad you’re here. And hope you enjoy our presentation and discussions today. We get to speak with Eric Dates. And Eric has an interesting life. I think so he was a division one volleyball player on a championship team for Ohio State. I bet Michigan didn’t like that. But you know, that’s another that’s another story. But he’s been involved in leadership marketing and, and has a lot to talk about least, it seems so from the things I’ve read. So Eric, welcome to unstoppable mindset. And we’re really glad you’re here.
Eric Dates ** 01:57
Michael, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. It’s always an honor to chat with you. So looking forward to it.
Michael Hingson ** 02:03
Well, why don’t we start, as I love to do and tell us a little bit about kind of the early Eric growing up and all that stuff?
Eric Dates ** 02:11
Sure. So I stem from the left coast, the west coast in the Heart of LA, born and raised there. Yeah, had awesome, awesome family life. I was super blessed. I got to get to participate in a lot of sports and a lot of other fun things. I did music as well, out there growing up and we’re in LA. Right on the west side of LA, I guess the biggest subsidy of that massive place would be Culver City area for me. And yeah, it was great. You know, it’s, it was, I’m really glad I grew up where I grew up in in the way that I grew up. Because it gave me a great perspective of diversity, I think in a lot of ways that people want to experience it. Every school I went to was, you know, had people from all walks of life across the board. And to me, that was just the status quo. So I think it shaped me to become the person I am today, which is, you know, someone who expects that out of society in general. And it’s been really, I’ve been really fortunate to continue to experience tons of diversity, whether it’s people diversity or activity, diversity, you know, all the different types of diversity, you can experience. I’ve been lucky enough to be a part of a bunch of it. So it’s been it’s been a great road so far from that, you know, kind of looking back now. The way I grew up, I, I couldn’t imagine it happening any other way at this point. And I wouldn’t wish it to be so because I just feel like it. It taught me a lot of lessons both hard and easy to learn in a great way that I don’t think I would have got anywhere else.
Michael Hingson ** 03:51
So you went through high school out in LA
Eric Dates ** 03:54
that I did. I went to Alexander Hamilton High School, the birthplace of many random things, and actually stay in high school is a couple celebrity folks that you probably recognize. And it was great, super fun experience. It was a half of a Music Academy, half humanities Academy and it was a phenomenal school. Public school too in the Heart of LA. Wow.
Michael Hingson ** 04:17
What did you play for an instrument?
Eric Dates ** 04:20
So my main instrument was guitar growing up, like guitar, and I did everything from in high school. I was a mariachi, which was really fun. Great experience getting to around Los Angeles and playing for just the most incredible people I’ve ever met and eating the most incredible food I’ve ever eaten. And I toured as a musician here in Nashville as well with guitar for a little bit so it carried me on throughout my earlier life quite a bit.
Michael Hingson ** 04:48
Well, so you went through high school and then I gather you went to Ohio State that I did. What what prompted that because that’s a long way from Southern California.
Eric Dates ** 05:01
It definitely was. And I’d be lying to you if I said it was easy to do. But at the beginning, it was very much, you know, especially when you’re fortunate enough to be playing a sport like that, that does have a collegiate level. I got to fly and experience Ohio State, I experienced a couple other schools in Southern California. And I was just blown away by the the pride and culture that the entire campus had, I just wanted to go be a part of it. But that thought it was a two in my eyes, it was a huge risk, you know, coming from the epicenter of volleyball going into the Midwest, which turns out has a phenomenal volleyball program across the board. And yeah, it was the the good Ohio State Buckeyes that got me out of California.
Michael Hingson ** 05:46
Well, so, you’re right, it’s sort of the epicenter out here in a lot of ways, but volleyball has turned out to be a lot more universal than maybe we thought and the Olympics is certainly brought volleyball to the visibility of of a lot of people, which is, which is kind of cool. What did you major in in college,
Eric Dates ** 06:09
I was that person who didn’t figure out what I wanted to major. And until the last second, I had to pick and I picked English, which turned into marketing, which then turned into Hospitality Management, then Consumer Science is where I landed.
Michael Hingson ** 06:26
Wow. That’s a kind of, again, a diverse range of topics to to deal with. And you did all that and move from one of those fields to the other in college.
Eric Dates ** 06:40
Yeah, so I eventually found my place at the time in Hospitality Management, because of the phenomenal focus on customer experience. And I’m so thankful for that time I spent there as it applies in so much these days. So I was really fortunate to learn early on after graduating, that I did not want to work in hotels.
Michael Hingson ** 07:04
But you value the customer service and customer experience concept.
Eric Dates ** 07:09
More than anything, it’s why is that? You know, it’s, it’s been interesting, because the hospitality world, they’ve understood from the beginning, that you’re buying the experience, right, you’re you’re purchasing the brand, in a sense, when you go stay at a property, it’s the only tangible thing is, you know, the bed and the room itself, but that exists anywhere. So why pick them. And it all came down to the core differentiator, which was the way that they treated their guests. And now, you know, flash forward 12 ish years in the future. That’s how all these marketing departments and all these companies across the board are approaching their customers, you know, so it’s been, it’s been really beneficial for me to have that foundation, because I could start to apply what I already learned versus having to learn something like a new concept is customer first.
Michael Hingson ** 07:56
So how do you think customer experience and so on has changed or developed during the pandemic? Because certainly, it has a lot. And in hotels, for example, a lot of things have changed rooms aren’t necessarily cleaned every day. Sometimes there are other kinds of services that are more limited. Airlines are certainly not providing as much of what they used to provide. If I’m reading it, right, what do you think about all of that? And how does all that really blend into the whole customer experience concept?
Eric Dates ** 08:28
It’s definitely shifted significantly, you know, I think the start of it all was the iPhone coming out and these touchscreens and now half the experience was heavily digital in their hand. And with the pandemic kind of changing that in almost mandating that that’s the new experience for the most part, as well as customer behavior kind of changing. I think it’s, it’s opened up a lot of challenges, you know, in the hospitality space. And in general, in a service based industry, you have this whole concept of a service recovery plan, right? If something goes wrong with this, what are we supposed to do? And now it all transitioned from the humanistic element over into the digital elements. So all these properties, especially hotels, airlines, all these folks who weren’t necessarily digital first thinkers, they had to rapidly pivot and start accommodating, but also had to learn the hard way kind of building the ship as you’re sailing.
Michael Hingson ** 09:22
Yeah. Well, and I read a lot of complaints taking airlines, like, we want to push as many people into an airplane as possible. So now, the space in seats is six inches less than it used to be. And now we’re starting to hear people say, Has it gotten too confined and too crowded? And is all of the air rage that we hear about and read about, in part because of that and customer service? Is is it really as good as it used to be?
Eric Dates ** 09:56
I think that is a very phenomenal question because I don’t think there’s a clear answer, I think some have done better. And some have dropped the ball. And it’s gonna be an interesting time looking into the future, especially as this technology in general starts to compound at the rate that it is, who’s going to remain versus what new players are, we’re going to see and who’s gonna fall off. So it’s gonna be an interesting, you know, couple of years, in my opinion, as we look forward to see kind of who’s still going to be here versus Are there going to be new names? I’ve never heard of the forefront.
Michael Hingson ** 10:29
Yeah. And that’s going to be the exciting thing. Are we going to see new players who come in with new ideas that for whatever reason people haven’t thought of? And probably the naysayers will say, Well, that’ll never work. Well, that certainly was true with Southwest Airlines, because they rejected the whole idea of a hub model for slang. And they’re still around.
Eric Dates ** 10:53
That’s very true. That’s very true, they did get the good to get a little bit of a saving grace once the economy tanked a bit. But yeah, I agree, they did a good job at at pivoting accordingly. And kind of changing their brand, in a way that their expectation was very clear of when you engage with Southwest, here’s what your experience is going to be like, that’s what’s really saved them.
Michael Hingson ** 11:15
And while it’s true that you just get on an airplane, there are no assigned seats and, and other things like that. Mostly, I don’t hear nearly the level of complaints about them as I do some of the other airlines because you’ve also got the flight attendants, who have been encouraged to make the flying experience more pleasurable, and they’re not necessarily as stiff as and as formal, at least in my experience.
Eric Dates ** 11:46
I want to agree, you know, you hit on a really interesting point, that it used to be looking for elements of digital to drop into the human experience. And now it’s the opposite way of, if we drop human experience into a digital, you know, journey, it’s almost like it becomes significantly more noticed. And I love how Southwest has empowered those folks to have fun and enjoy what they’re doing. And, you know, the consumers always tell you, you know, whether they’re sharing stuff out social or hits the news, whatever, but they will let you know what they liked what they do. And it seems like people have really caught on to that one element of the brand.
Michael Hingson ** 12:23
Yeah. And it’s, it’s going to be interesting just to see how it all goes. As we go forward, and whether consumers will demand enough that they don’t like, perhaps the way some things are going well, we’ll see. And the other part of it is that I know different countries have different levels of airlines, passenger rights or other kinds of industry rights. Legislation. So it’ll be interesting to see how it all shakes out. It’s going to be an exciting time. No, no question about it.
Eric Dates ** 12:59
Absolutely, we’ll probably see things happen the fastest they’ve ever happened before. And it will continue to be as such.
Michael Hingson ** 13:06
Yeah. And, and that’s okay. That’s what makes it kind of fun. Well, so what did you do right out of college? So you were in hospitality? Where did you go to work? What did you do that got you off of hotels.
Eric Dates ** 13:21
I was working at two properties in Columbus, actually, Columbus, Ohio. And it was fun. And I just wanted in full transparency. I probably was way too ambitious for my own good. I was looking to learn to things in hotel so I could start my own and, you know, build the version of Atlantis that we all want to build in our minds and make it real. And I quickly realized that I probably needed to get some more experience and knowledge around what I thought I knew. So let me do the business world.
Michael Hingson ** 13:54
What did you So how long did you do hotel stuff?
Eric Dates ** 13:58
I had been working in hotels since probably five years like during college and then after college than after you know that that last portion kind of before I moved to Nashville? Yeah, I was in those two. So prob about five years of hotel work here and there. I would wouldn’t say his full time just because of the sports commitments and other things. But as much as I could. I was I was working on property and getting that experience in.
Michael Hingson ** 14:26
Was it full time after college?
Eric Dates ** 14:29
It was it was full time.
Michael Hingson ** 14:31
And how long do that? How long was that after college?
Eric Dates ** 14:36
Prep? Probably right when I went full time full time and I hated it to be fully transparent. It was a shock for me to go full time on on your feet all day. So is the short three or four months of full time before this really hit me of like this is not it’s not Eric,
Michael Hingson ** 14:52
you made a decision pretty quickly. So what did you what what did you then go and do
Eric Dates ** 15:00
So that’s kind of when I picked everything up and said, You know, I’m going to try to move to Nashville. I had some friends here had some had some connections here and wanted had always been doing music, like I said, so I was gonna go see if I could dive into some songwriting get into the performing aspect, while chasing a business career. And that’s when I found my first, I guess, real marketing job was with a co working space here in Nashville. And that was what jump started my career in marketing.
Michael Hingson ** 15:30
But you also worked as a musician for a while, right?
Eric Dates ** 15:33
I did. I was touring around and touring with the back that I was with is basically fancy weekends is the way that pitch it, you know, some Thursday nights, but mostly Fridays, and Saturdays, you’re out. I’d love to say a bus. But most of the times it was in a van. And we were, you know, putting in the grind and going out. So every other Thursday, just about, you know, we were an opening act. So we’d go chase down where the big open or the big maniac was, to our 45 minute set. And right back to Nashville.
Michael Hingson ** 16:07
Anybody who was a maniac that we would know.
Eric Dates ** 16:11
I absolutely, I think, you know, one of the one of the main acts that we were opening up for most when I was with this artists and artists was playing for a name was Tara Thompson, or still is, her name is Tara Thompson. And the main act that we opened for most was Drake. White was his name. So he had some really popular songs out. I think like 2017. And some other various artists, I had the fortunate opportunity of opening for, you know, everything from The Chainsmokers to mark chestnut, you know, the the country gentleman who had some pretty big songs, and quite a few other artists that were it was just really cool to go experience that. But there was also a reason why I did not stay.
Michael Hingson ** 16:51
That wasn’t what you really wanted to do full time.
Eric Dates ** 16:56
Correct. It was a it was that classic inflection point, the fork in the road of if I keep going this way. I have to go 100%. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 17:06
And you weren’t really ready to do that. Concerning music. And it doesn’t sound like you wanted to do that. But you still had a lot of fun with music. So it helped. Absolutely. But you But you went into marketing, and you started working for a company, what did you do?
Eric Dates ** 17:24
So it was right at the boom of we work kind of getting on the map. So I was a part of a younger company startup out of Nashville that had two locations, the company name is E spaces, they’re still here, they’re doing a great job. They’ve gotten I think, like nine or 10 locations now, some in Florida as well. So with that job, when I first got there, it was very much we need marketing help. We don’t have big budget because we’re young, but we’re leaning me and we’re ready to go. So we need someone to help build the front desk, the front desk experience because they loved my hospitality background. So I was able to apply those learnings pretty quickly and help encourage these folks who were renting the front desk, or what we coined as the concierge to heighten the experience. And then with that kind of put together some digital marketing the b2b side to try and attract customers. So it’s very much localized marketing. And it was great for me to learn because it was pretty hands off for my boss. He all he knew is what he wanted at the end. And oftentimes, for folks like myself, that’s really appealing because I get to go test my theories learn the hard way. And get us there by any means necessary.
Michael Hingson ** 18:42
Well, you, you got into marketing and tell me a little bit more about what you mean, when you say you you were in marketing and what marketing is.
Eric Dates ** 18:52
That’s a phenomenal question. I view marketing exclusively as conversation and mindshare, right? How can I rent space in the mind of the right person at the right time. And often that’s accomplished these days through digital conversation, but yet to meet to me marketing is all around fostering the right message to the right person at the right time.
Michael Hingson ** 19:20
How does that differ differ from sales? And I know you make a little bit of a distinction between the two. So what’s the difference?
Eric Dates ** 19:30
So the main difference to me and this is a topic that you don’t really see as much as you think. But with with sales, to me, it’s the goal is to get them to purchase. And in my opinion marketing is to encourage the right decision when the decision is to purchase. That’s one, whether the decision is to follow along and consume content. That’s a secondary, you know, there’s a bunch of different goals that I think marketing helps accomplish, but it’s more so sales. is really figuring out what do you individual? What do you need here? And how can what I offer meet that for you. So it’s kind of a little bit different than I’m anticipating that conversation and trying to stimulate it to when the person in the market shows up to that conversation and hits that conclusion of, hey, I want this. The conversation is easier from the sales side. So it’s kind of marketing, in my opinion, if done right, it handles all the objections that you would have in a normal sales process.
Michael Hingson ** 20:33
So I, I know from my experience, I’ve been in sales most of my adult life. And I, my view of sales is somewhat similar to yours. I think that good salespeople are teachers. And the reality is that the best salespeople also are capable of recognizing when what we’re offering won’t necessarily do what the customer needs, or it would be more of a disservice to try to push them into something than to say to them, This is what really works. My best employee that I ever hired, was a guy who, when he came for his interview, and we sat down, and I said, Tell me what you’re going to be selling for us. He said, Actually, all I can really sell is my word, and my trust, and people need to decide to trust me, and I need you to back me up. Because the products and so on is all stuff. And a number of people have products and really the only thing I can really sell this myself and my word. And that was the answer I always look for and rarely ever got. Because the reality is that good salespeople, first of all, do understand marketing. Oh, yeah, but they but they also understand that their job is to do their best to help a customer make the right decision. And the reality is if the decision is my product won’t do what they need, then the other aspect of it is what will work for them. And if I help a customer decide that and it isn’t the product that I have, what does that get me? Well, the reality is I’ve seen on more than one occasion, when it gets me is so much trust that the customer understands what we have, and when an opportunity comes along to purchase a product. And in fact, we have I’ve seen on more than one occasion where the the customer says, I’m not putting it out for bid, you just tell us what the cost is. And we’re gonna buy it from you because we trust you. That’s great. And you just don’t see much of that.
Eric Dates ** 22:49
That’s true. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. I just think you hit on a really great point that a lot of folks almost lose these days. And I’m thinking kind of from a biased perspective of b2b exclusively software, as a service. And right now, the volume game, in my opinion, has become a tunnel or blinders for people because they’re so focused on activity, right, everything now becomes a I have to hit this amount of activity today, I have to, you know, send as many emails as candidates, people call as many people, etc, etc. And they lose almost that forward thinking. So I think, when I hear you say that, it’s that that’s experienced, that’s knowledge being shared, versus when you see sales folks out these days, and I’m just speaking the masses, I think there’s a core group of very experienced sales folks who know exactly what they’re doing. But from what I experienced in my inbox, and especially when my phone rings, it’s, it’s, it’s almost a victim of process because they’re like, I have to call you, I have to push this on you. Because I need to sell you this so I can have a job that fit. There’s so much pressure put on these folks these days from a process side versus that longer term thinking of trust building and credibility boosting like you’re mentioning.
Michael Hingson ** 24:06
Yeah. And the reality is that the people who really understand what selling is all about can take a step back and try to stave off more of that pressure because they know what they’re doing and they know what they can do. I remember after September 11, people would call me and say you got to start selling again. We need to make goal this quarter. And this is now late in September of 2001. And it didn’t matter to them that our customers were attending five, six and seven funerals a day and we’re not buying the people who were calling we’re so far removed, that they just could not understand why people weren’t right back in and buying and they interpreted is that really we weren’t off and selling, which was totally Not true at all. In reality, we ended up making gold that quarter. But still, the bottom line is that people have just such interesting ideas sometimes about how to sell rather than really allowing people to build the level of trust that we need to have.
Eric Dates ** 25:20
That’s a great, great definition. It’s, you know, it’s it’s rather than learning selling, it’s understanding buying. I think those are really interesting perspective to look at it from.
Michael Hingson ** 25:31
It is, well, so clearly, we’re talking philosophy here, we’re talking about selling the philosophy of marketing, how do you feel that that marketing and you know, your overall philosophy intertwined with each other, or sales for that matter?
Eric Dates ** 25:47
Right, and it’s, I, I am, of the mindset of simplification, it, simplify everything in its in its most simple form, get down to the essence, right, so I can really understand what it is. So as I approach a lot of my marketing, and teams that you know, who’ve worked with me, even my current team, they know this happens all the time is that, you know, I asked him well, what’s like, like, in one sentence, like what just tell me like, if I’m your 10 year old cousin, tell me exactly what you’re trying to accomplish? Like, we’re at a family dinner. And I’m asking you, hey, what do you do at work, like, tell me what you’re trying to accomplish? And then they say it, and it’s okay. That’s how you need to write to the market, because you just told me the clearest and simplest way for me to understand something. So often, what I end up doing in my moments of thinking are just simplifying and breaking things down as much as I can to get a better understanding of how I can leverage these, you know, tactics and tools that we all have, and probably take for granted on a daily basis.
Michael Hingson ** 26:49
Yeah, we often do really take it for granted way too much. And we don’t think about it. And, like with so many things, we tend to react more than thinking about it, and then reacting and becoming better at thinking about it and drawing good sound conclusions before we do something or say something.
Eric Dates ** 27:09
Completely agree the the scheduling an hour for yourself, I think, is something often understated, in terms of importance, because it can do so much for people who have a very busy plate, just getting that hour of unplug everything, put the phone away and just think, you know, shut the computer down and just just think about something, you know, challenge yourself a little bit, it’s still a muscle,
Michael Hingson ** 27:35
it is still a muscle Do you tend to do much of that? Do you do sort of introspective thinking at the end of the day, or at some point every day to step back from everything that’s going on?
Eric Dates ** 27:48
Absolutely, I try to do it twice a day, you know, kind of a lunchtime work right after I finished lunch. Rather than diving right back in, it’s kind of the you know, don’t swim for 20 minutes after you eat. I tried to not work for 20 minutes after I just think and use that time. The other time is, of course, at the end of the day where I reflect on everything that went on. And oftentimes I’ll chew on a specific aspect of the day for for quite a bit and just see what I can do with it. Zero goals other than just think
Michael Hingson ** 28:17
you beat yourself up when you’re thinking that you screwed up in something or something didn’t go the way you wanted? Or how do you handle those kinds of adverse situations?
Eric Dates ** 28:28
Absolutely. And yeah, the younger Eric, the fresh out of college, Eric would have. Absolutely and definitely did beat himself up and, and learning from what happens when you do that. So it’s been very helpful for me, like I said, I do like to learn the hard way, unfortunately. But it helps me out with where I’m at now. Because I’m very purposeful about not reacting to my own emotions. And those you know, scenarios where you’re frustrated because something was missed. I need to focus on getting back to the right mentality. So I can make a sound decision versus reacting from a state of anger or frustration. So it’s been that’s probably the strongest thing I’ve learned in my life has been that right there of when to react based on emotion versus not to any scenario, and I’m definitely not perfect, but I’m more cognizant of it.
Michael Hingson ** 29:20
Yeah, the issue is that we are, as I love to say, our own best teachers. I don’t like any more to use the term. I’m my own worst critic. I used to do that. When I would listen to speeches that I’ve given and listen to the recordings of them. I would tell people I’m doing it because I’m my own worst critic. And if I can learn from it, that’s great. And I realized that that was the wrong thing to say that in reality, I’m my own best teacher because no matter what is going on, the only person who can really teach me is me. Teachers and others can provide information and they can give me things to think about, but I’m still the one that has to deal with them. So I’ve learned that I’m actually my own best teacher. And I’m with you, I try not to react in adverse or negative ways, and beat myself up even when something just really doesn’t go. Well. The real issue at that point isn’t, what a scroungy lousy guy you are, but what do I learn from that? How can I improve it? Or can I improve it, it may very well be that there was absolutely nothing that can be done to improve the situation, because it was something that was totally out of my control
Eric Dates ** 30:34
completely. But that’s, it’s, it’s funny how, in practice, it becomes so simple. But, you know, looking at it from the outside, in, it’s very much one of the most difficult things you can do.
Michael Hingson ** 30:49
Again, it gets back down to a philosophy of life, and we’re still the only people who can excite ourselves, or adopt philosophy that we think about. And we if we do it, right, we do it because we, in some ways, feel sympathetic or attracted to a particular attitude or philosophy. And that’s kind of the way it really ought to be. But it is about developing a life philosophy 100%. So, clearly, you do philosophical thinking, who’s your favorite philosopher?
Eric Dates ** 31:31
I’ve got a few. I’d say probably Peter Drucker is at the forefront of what I love to read. I just love the way his mind works. Phenomenal stuff. And another gentleman who actually is the person who introduced me to Peter Drucker, his name is Flint McLaughlin. He, in my opinion, is just one of the most intelligent and intellectual marketing philosophers ever exist, and should go down in history as such, because he has, he brings such an interesting perspective on every concept of what we do and, you know, associated with the cognitive aspect of how the human beings make decisions. And just I just love the way that guy talks. So I can’t listen to him enough. So those are probably my two.
Michael Hingson ** 32:16
Yeah, I I’ve not met either. Course Now, Peter Drucker, not anyway. But what was it like meeting Peter Drucker? What kind of a person was he?
Eric Dates ** 32:27
Well, I didn’t get to meet him. Unfortunately. I wish i You
Michael Hingson ** 32:29
were you were just introduced to him? Yeah. I was wondering, yeah, introduced sorry, to his to his works to his words. One of my favorite people is a guy named Patrick Lencioni. Are you familiar with him? Absolutely. And I like him, because I like the way he approaches teams. And one of the things that I say on a regular basis to people is that having now used eight guide dogs, I’ve learned so much more about team building and teamwork, from working with a guide dogs, and I’ve ever learned from Patrick Lencioni, Ken Blanchard, and all of the major experts on management, consulting and so on, because first of all, it is it is real, you you have to go right down into the weeds, if you will, you really have to put everything into practice. And when you’re working with a dog, what you see is what you get, and that’s the the thing that we lose with humans, because we’re always just wondering, well, what’s this person’s real agenda, and can I trust them. And so we have taught ourselves to not be open to trust nearly as much as we can be. And dogs while they love unconditionally, as I’ve learned, I think over the years, just in observing them and thought about it, a lot, dogs do not trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is that dogs unless there is some real traumatic experience they’ve had to undergo, dogs, at least are open to trust. And that ought to be a great lesson, we all could learn
Eric Dates ** 34:06
100% It’s almost like with the amount of just from a macro level, the amount of untruthfulness that exists out there, and the amount of you know, false information tossed our way all the time from any which way we we’re so cynical anymore, and I feel like consumers and just people in general have become so cynical and closed off as a as a reaction to that. So I to your point, I think having the humility there you because when you when you were saying that around the dogs, I just hear, you know, humility and humbleness to do so. And yeah, it’s to get to that level would be it changed the world.
Michael Hingson ** 34:48
The other thing about dogs is that they all do have just like people, different personalities. I had one guide dog that only worked 18 months and as I described her to people, she had sort of a type A personality and could not leave work at the office. So at home, she followed me around, she wouldn’t play with the other dogs, she would actually curl her lip at the other dogs in our house if they wanted to play. And it got to the point where she was so much on all the time, that she became fearful and became actually afraid to guide, she just couldn’t take the stress that she really imposed on herself. And there’s a great lesson there for so many of us who are people that we ought to learn that we can control stress and fear a lot more than we do.
Eric Dates ** 35:35
Absolutely. It’s very interesting that, to see that I imagined in person, especially with with with an animal like that, you know, that’s, that’s going to be incredible. And with human beings. I think the the ability to clearly decipher between perception, and reality is what is at the root of that, because so many folks create this perception that they start to live it. And it compounds quickly, as you know, you know, talking about things like stress or whatnot, it’s, it’s almost addicted to itself. So yeah, having that ability to be humble, and inwardly reflect, but also know, I shouldn’t react this way. Or I should actually be open to trusting this person, or whatever it may be. The simple decisions. Help starts with acknowledging the reality of the matter.
Michael Hingson ** 36:28
Yeah, being a marketing guy, why do you think we’re sort of progressing that way, as opposed to learning more humility and being a little bit more humble about what we do?
Eric Dates ** 36:39
I think it’s this subliminal mentality that stems from the screens, and in our hands every day that people are, everyone has a voice, and everyone is almost forced to listen to it. At this point, I feel like just based on habits, so as everyone welcomes all this information it wants into their mind. So unnatural, you know, in general, so it’s, it creates a stressful environment on the human mind. And I think that aside, in the market, as a consumer, it’s even more crazy, you know, people are giving you 85 different versions of a product to solve your problem. And they’re all fantastic. What are you supposed to choose? Who are you supposed to believe? cetera, et cetera. And you know, that that stressful atmosphere that that atmosphere of cynicism and disbelief, of so many people are saying this, therefore, it must be wrong. It is now the status quo. And it’s created just a very, very, very interesting shift in human behavior and consumer behavior across the board. And it’s a little look a little nervous, to be honest, I think there’s, there’s that example of just because you can doesn’t mean you should with certain aspects, tech and things like that to really engulf the human and almost make the reality irrelevant, and everything becomes digital. So I’m a little nervous about that. But we’d love to know your thoughts on where you think we’re headed. Well,
Michael Hingson ** 38:09
I think you’re, you’re right. And I think that, unfortunately, people who ought to know better and who can help, perhaps deal with some of it won’t. One of my favorite examples lately has been observing, news reporting, and I’m going to deal with specifically whether prognostication hearing California. Yeah. Okay, I can tell you, it’s probably see where I’m going. We, we hear all the time now, because we’ve had marine layers and a lot of clouds, the May gray in the June gloom. And one of these days, we’ll get sun again. But it’s horrible because we don’t get the sunshine. And then when we do get the sun for any period of time, then they talk about how hot it is, and the fire potential goes up and so on. There’s no pleasing them. And because there’s no pleasing them, we aren’t pleased and the reality is, the so called may gray and the June Gloom are, in part what has thus far although it’s early in the season, of course, but thus far, kept us from having more wildfires. They’ve kept it cooler, there’s been some rice stir, and there’s there’s no perspective we’ve lost our ability to, to have any kind of perspective. And now we’ve got, you know, with our politicians and talking about all the things that are going on in the political arena, everything has become so political, that there’s no room to step back or we don’t get the opportunity or we won’t take I should say the opportunity to step back and go wait a minute. What are these people really saying what of this really makes a lot of sense, as opposed to what what is actually coming out? On the news, you know, we’ve been hearing about politicians being indicted and so on. But all that’s political. And it doesn’t matter what the evidence shows. And of course, we don’t know all the evidence in some of the cases. And like, in everything that we do, we have just created such incredible shifts. One of the things I think about is Bill Cosby. So now he’s got nine women who have accused him of rape and other things like that. And maybe it’s all true. But you know, what the other side of Bill Cosby is, he was a very funny guy for many years. And now a lot of people would say, well, we just can’t have anything of his around anymore, because look at the guy he’s become, or Woodrow Wilson was a racist. And I participated in a program for a few years called the Woodrow Wilson Fellowship Program, which was something that was created by an organization dealing with independent colleges. And they decided they had to drop the name Woodrow Wilson fellowship, because people started saying, Well, he was a racist. And maybe he was, but what about the rest of what he did? Or I collect old radio shows as a hobby. And I’ve seen a number of instances now where people are saying, well, Amos, and Andy should be completely thrown out because they’re black. And they and the people who portrayed them were white and are totally misrepresenting black people. Really. We, we want to rewrite history, and not recognize the value that history brings. The The fact is with Amos and Andy, for example, in the 30s, and into the 40s. People would go on Saturday afternoons to the movie theaters for matinees. And when Amos and Andy came on, the show stopped, and everyone listened to Amos and Andy, the show was well loved. And the fact is that, was it really intentionally racist? Or was it entertainment that everyone laughed at and loved? It changed, of course, when Amos and he went to TV, and I didn’t know that for a while, I didn’t even know they were black. I didn’t even think about it, you know, when the characters were, but it went to TV. And of course, then it was to people who who were black. And so that that caused a route. But the reality is that we don’t put anything in perspective anymore, and look at all sides of things that we don’t get to learn to do that. Because a lot of marketing, whether it’s from the politicians or elsewhere, is all based on fear. And all they want to do is create fear reactions within us.
Eric Dates ** 42:38
Yep. No, I completely agree. And, you know, it’s funny, that you’re mentioning that you feel like, if anyone tries hard enough, you can find frustration in anything, you can find the bad in anything. I mean, I’m wearing a baseball hat right now. So you look at a hat of all the history of a hat and the original purpose of hats, you know, you could probably associate some sort of negative historical context with a hat. Therefore, if you wear a hat these days, you’re misrepresenting someone who used to exist. So I think it almost goes back to this accepted level of ignorance, in my opinion, in this in society, because it’s, it’s, I only know what I know. But what I think you should think, whether we know the same amount of information or whatever, I’ve learned the full spectrum, or whatever it is, they’ve convinced themselves that what they think is fact. And we all know what, you know, people say about opinions. I think that’s where people should let things lay, you know, is is the opinion is just that and you are 100% allowed to have it. But the second you start finding, I’m not sure if I’ve mentioned this in the past, but I’m a huge student of it a psychologist out there right now who has concepts around herd mentality in the herd. So these days with digital communities, and you basically have entire access to the world in your hands. You can go find a herd just about anywhere for just about anything. Which is that a false perspective of what I think is correct. It has to be because here’s this finite group of people, whether it’s 100, or even 100,000, you know, in global terms, that’s a miniscule number, but it’s enough for them to validate their own idea to themselves. So then they start standing on this hill that they apparently want to die on saying, You must hear me from my position I have X amount of people behind me that also believe this therefore, everyone else must think the way that we think and when you when you apply this to marketing, you know, I love the Bill Cosby reference because you know, how many people did he make laugh? Right? How many times did he make people laugh? And then how quickly are people to once they learn about behind the curtain? Completely, just count everything that they’ve ever enjoyed. But I see so much of a hypocritical nature there. Because if you were someone who laughed, and then later or someone who’s upset, I don’t, to me, the logic doesn’t add up. So in marketing, to me, this is a masterclass on branding is the second that the expectation that this person set is not actually met, your brand starts to take. So with the Bill Cosby thing, he was making people laugh, he was doing things he had his own persona, his own brand. But the second he deviated from that, and they found something negative, that differ from the expectation in their brain. They hate the guy can’t stand him and everything he’s ever touched is terrible.
Michael Hingson ** 45:42
Rather than recognizing that what we really have are two things, what he was, and now what he is, which are two different things.
Eric Dates ** 45:52
Correct. And people need to realize that they are two completely separate things.
Michael Hingson ** 45:58
But you know, we’ve had people and over the last six years with with politics and so on during the Trump era, when reporters would say, but this is a fact. And then we hear, but there are alternative facts. They’re there. They’re challenging the definition of a fact. And that doesn’t work that way. But unfortunately, once again, as you said, with the herd mentality, they’ve got enough of a herd that buys into it, that suddenly Well, there really are facts and alternative facts, rather than something that is factual. And what is an opinion.
Eric Dates ** 46:37
It all goes back. And I completely agree, it goes back to the search for confirmation, versus the search for truth. And I feel like people constantly become a victim, especially in a world of the internet, where you can honestly go find the answer to anything you want to hear in the way that you want to hear it. Right. So it’s like people are constantly in search of confirmation of please tell me that what I’m thinking is correct versus what is correct. And that is the that’s the mentality shift that I’m a little cynical on is this where the broader group of consumers are headed, just based on behavior, which as you look at digital marketing, and SEO, and all these other things, it’s a dangerous road, because you could start to preach something that’s not necessarily true. But you could convince people that it is and boom, you’re left with a fire festival in the marketing realm where everyone’s super excited to come see these artists that no one’s actually playing. Yeah, thanks for your money.
Michael Hingson ** 47:34
Isn’t it amazing? Well, and you know, last year, with all the stuff with Ticketmaster, and Taylor Swift and all that, a great performer. And still, it’s a performance, it’s entertainment. Yet people took it so personally, and of course, Ticketmaster, may very well have done some things that they shouldn’t have done. But my gosh, the Dubrow over it was was incredible. There’s, again, no, no medium, no midway, or no way to just try to put it in perspective and say, Okay, let’s hold Ticketmaster responsible, but don’t take it personally. Yes.
Eric Dates ** 48:15
I feel like that’s the, the the unfortunate reality that we all live in now, because of all types of media, whether it’s social, whether it’s on television, whether its political, whether it’s not, it’s PayPal, and finally understood, it’s so much easier to get people riled up about something than it is to get them to come together and fix something right. They’d love to point fingers, they’d love to throw stones. But when it comes to kind of building what they need to build, in order to never have to throw a stone again. That’s, that’s someone else’s job. It’s not someone
Michael Hingson ** 48:49
else’s job. Whatever happened to Gandhi and be the change you want to see in the world?
Eric Dates ** 48:54
That’s true. I feel like some folks have been taking that a little differently these days.
Michael Hingson ** 48:58
Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s amazing. Well, how are we going to change that? Do you have any thoughts or notions?
Eric Dates ** 49:07
I really think it’s, it’s by doing what you just mentioned, you know, you know, studying God is truth there is once you become what you need. You don’t need it anymore. Right? You’ve you’ve become it and you now are the solution. So if you want to be the change that you want to see, leading by example, is the only way to do that. And I think it’s often scary because back to the herd mentality, if you deviate from the herd enough, you know, fight or flight instinct kicks in and all sudden you’re out in the open. Everyone’s looking at you and you’re terrified to make decisions. And that’s where courage and I think that’s something that’s really lacking in a lot of individuals these days, whether it’s from fear, whether it’s from uncertainty, whatever it might stem from, it’s who has the courage to step up and just start doing the right thing, not not tweeting about it, not putting it under Social mean idea, you’re actually doing it right not playing the game, throw the game away and change the game and say this is my domain. Now here’s how I’m going to approach this, people will eventually follow suit, I just think we need it on a larger scale with the right people to do so in a way that it’s not captured by me to say that this is cheesy, or this is something you poke fun at, because now you have a lot of a lot of enemies who have a lot of real estate in the mind, that you’re going to have to kind of overcome. But I think those who stay true, you know, through your courage to the sticking place, if you will, you won’t, you won’t fail, and we won’t fail, and everything will get to a much better spot, I just think we need to unlock and empower those leaders who are all out there that are trying to do this, I think we’ll just be stronger as a group, versus kind of the single twig that can snap, you know, you bunch them all together, and boom, it’s it’s a log.
Michael Hingson ** 50:58
Yeah. What kind of mindset do marketers need to establish within themselves to truly become successful and, and help bring that change about? And how do we make that happen?
Eric Dates ** 51:13
That’s it that is a tough one it but it’s a fantastic question. Because it’s something that a lot of people should ask themselves quite often. And it’s always a fine line between you’re hired to do a job, right? You’re You’re tasked with a business goal, if you have to grow us from X to Y, or from Y to Z, whatever may be in you know, ABC amount of time. Knowing that that’s a task. I think it’s just having the humility and courage to not cross into the gray area, where it becomes manipulation of, hey, I can, I can almost persuade you to go do something because you understand these powerful tools that you can unlock in the in the brain. So I think it’s, it’s really just be a amplifier of truth. Constantly, whether it whether the product is good or not. tell the true story. And set the right expectation of something that you can deliver on don’t sell the vision. Right, that that’s not your job. As a marketer, your job is to sell reality to that person, so they can make the right decision going back to your point in sales. And I think more people need to stay true to the craft of over deliver information, provide context, establish an expectation for what you can do, and what you will do. And let the people choose accordingly. Because that That, to me is the beauty of a free market. It’s the beauty of when people can make decisions based on supply and demand because they put the demand in there, you know, in a world full of supply.
Michael Hingson ** 52:54
Yeah, interesting concept of over deliver information. But it is relevant and true. And of course, it’s also delivering the right information, which goes back to truth. And I don’t personally think that there are really different kinds of truth. I think that it goes back to facts and alternative facts, there is truth. And what it really comes down to is we need to ask the right questions. And consumers need to learn to ask the right questions and maybe marketing and other people who are involved in setting the trends need to teach us how to ask and what to ask for the right questions.
Eric Dates ** 53:38
Absolutely, it goes back to, to ethics and leading with that for if you truly want the customer to be first, I think to simplify it. do just that.
Michael Hingson ** 53:55
Do you distinguish between? and I’m I’m thinking about this? Because I thought about the whole discussion that we had about sales and selling products and being truthful about that. How do you define or what do you think about the differences between personal success and professional success? Because that’s an interesting thing. You’re professionally successful if you’re for your sales guy, for example, if you’re selling lots of stuff and people are buying from you, but that doesn’t necessarily lead to personal success and what’s the difference? And what are they
Eric Dates ** 54:27
another phenomenal question I think with with today’s social atmosphere, and how we’re constantly you know, being influenced if you will, which I think is a really really funny term. But these influencers out there who are you know, these people trust for a variety of reasons are created by created by the consumer themselves because again, it goes back to that search for confirmation of like, I think I want this but I need someone to tell me that this is the right thing to get So that’s a really good, good question.
Michael Hingson ** 55:05
Yeah, because in reality, rather than saying, I need somebody to tell me, it’s the right thing, it would seem to me that what we should do is to say, I need to get the information from sources to decide whether it’s the right thing or not. And if I’m not confident, then maybe there’s something else I need to learn. And there’s something there’s nothing wrong with experts. There’s nothing wrong with people who really no one has ever said. But by the same token, it still comes down to you should check all sides of it, whatever it happens to be, and then decide what the right thing is. Because the fact is that the right thing for you may not be the right thing for me. And that doesn’t make the decision for either of us wrong.
Eric Dates ** 55:52
Absolutely. And I think as we look at defining the personal side of success, I think becoming more aware of these things that exist in marketing, and in business alone, I mean, just just being a smarter consumer, in my opinion, today will help people gain that success, whatever that looks like. Because if you can’t fall victim to marketing, manipulation, or you know, persuasion out in the market to go make decisions that you didn’t necessarily want to make or wasn’t the right one, because you were tricked, whatever it may be. I think that that realization of being cognizant of what’s going on what those triggers are, so you don’t fall victim to it, start to open up the right way to more clearly define what success looks like for that individual. Because now your mind is free. And to me, that’s the precursor to personal success is how do you unlock your own mind, from a place of being controlled professionally, I think it’s it to me, it’s no different than sports in the way I believe this, it’s, it’s professionally is whatever your goals are for yourself in this role, whether you want to achieve the CEO or whatever you want to achieve. And you go get it like celebrate that win, because it’s something you want it to go do for you to understand why totally different discussion. But if you if you, you know wholeheartedly believe that that’s what you want to go do as a professional, you want to, you know, win a championship, win a Super Bowl, you want to have an exit with a, an acquisition, or m&a activity, whatever it may be. That’s okay. That’s a great goal professionally, but I think separating the two is where people start to win. Because they know that there are two difference. Because you know, professions only exist because of money. Right? If you really look at it, it’s you’re getting paid to do something, therefore you are professional. That’s it. But as your personal stuff should be a little bit separate, in my opinion. But that’s that’s just my my thought on that matter.
Michael Hingson ** 57:50
Well, I would agree and goals, by the way can evolve. So you may start out wanting to be a champion or acquire a company or become a CEO. And it may very well be that as you work towards something, you’ll decide that well maybe that’s really not what was best for me and you should be open to looking doesn’t mean you have doubt, but you should be open to evaluating what you do regularly. You did. And you you migrated. And that seemed to work pretty well. You know, we call this unstoppable mindset what? What would you suggest to people in terms of how they can develop an unstoppable mindset, mindset.
Eric Dates ** 58:31
Love that, to me is the word that stares me in the face is mind, right? Just the root of all of that comes to understanding your own mind. Not everyone else is just focused on your own right understand what makes you tick, understand what makes you frustrated, you know, put in the time of thinking every day and just challenge yourself understand things seek truth in yourself. Don’t think validation or seek validation and other people’s thoughts and opinions? Or or god forbid the internet. You know, really just be cognizant of who you actually are. And I think once you understand that there’s your starting point, to start figuring out, how do I stay this person? Is it first of all, is this the person you want to stay? As? That’s a great question to ask. But once you figure out that this is me, and this is who I want to be. That to me is is the unstoppable mindset part because now you’re concrete in your conclusion that this is me, and I accepted and proud of who I am. And now everything else out there is just how do I go? Get it done? Because you already done the hard part of figuring out yourself
Michael Hingson ** 59:47
and it is all about you understanding you and I totally agree with you. And that’s a great way to bring this conversation to a close because I think it will give all of us a lot to think about out. And I do want to thank you for being here with us. How do people reach out to you maybe learn more about you and learn what you do and how they can maybe interact with you?
Absolutely. The one social platform that I am on is LinkedIn. And I’m completely accessible, happy to chat with anyone, anytime. How do they find it and just search for Eric Dates, I believe I’m one of the few. And I’m happy to share out the LinkedIn URL that we can toss in the bottom of this at some point. But yeah, never hesitate to reach out if there’s something you’d like to talk about any subject, not just marketing, or philosophy or, or consumers or anything like that. Anything. I just welcomed the community.
Michael Hingson ** 1:00:41
We’ll make sure it’s in the in the notes, by all means. Well, I want to thank you again for being here with us. I do have one last question. What do you do when you’re not working?
Eric Dates ** 1:00:53
I’ve got two beautiful kids who I love playing with all the time. I love putting on my kid hat because for me, that is who I am. I’m just a grown up kid. And I love playing with them. You know, I love the family life. And they got an incredible mom who we play with all the time. And yeah, I love playing with my family. So that’s, that’s what I tried to do the most. Because for me, as we looked at, in really in the mind, that’s, that’s what’s very important to me. So I want to make sure I get a part of that, or as much of that as I can on a daily basis.
Michael Hingson ** 1:01:24
And that is cool. And that’s the way it really should be. Well, thanks again for being here. And I want to thank you for listening. If you would please give us a five star review at read five star review. If I could talk I’d be in lovely shape. Give us a five star review. Wherever you’re listening to us, we would appreciate it. Always love your comments. I always love your thoughts. So please feel free to pass them on. You can reach me Michaelhi I M i c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to Michael hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. Love to hear from you. And Eric, for you and all of you listening if you have any thoughts of people who we ought to have as a guest, please let me know. We are always looking to meet more people and have more great conversations and really, hopefully help make the world a little bit better place by everything that we do. So please don’t hesitate to reach out and Eric once more. Thank you very much for being here with us and spending the last hour with us today.
Eric Dates ** 1:02:27
Absolutely. Michael, thank you so much. It was an absolute pleasure. I hope it gets to do it again.
**Michael Hingson ** 1:02:36
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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