Episode 157 – Unstoppable Bullying Expert with Suzanne Jean
Wow is all I can say about our guest in this episode, Suzanne Jean. Suzanne has spent more than 50 years in the social services arena. Much of that time has been creating and promoting a program called PowerED. She is the Director of Fit4Defense Consulting Ltd which is her springboard for bringing PowerED into schools and classrooms.
As Suzanne will tell us, bullying, especially of children, is significantly on the rise. She has reasons for this increase and will illustrate what is happening in our society that permits this to happen.
I believe this episode of Unstoppable Mindset is one of the most powerful ones I have had the privilege to conduct. Enough from me. I hope you will listen to Suzanne and take her observations and lessons to heart.
About the Guest:
Bullying Stops Here
Bullying hurts! It is not merely physical aggression but includes persistent
disparaging condescending, demeaning comments and behaviors that cause
physical and mental anguish to others. The harm and costs are well documented, examples are illness, addiction, suicide, anxiety, depression, unemployment, and
Under the umbrella of Fit4Defense, PowerEd classes work to help children, youth, adults, and seniors build a sense of confidence and self-worth through a variety of discussions,
exercises, and self-defense techniques.
The 4 in Fit4Defense’s name represents "the four As," and this forms the pillars of
the program. This training examines how attention, awareness, avoidance, and
action can help people to break through self-imposed limitations and habits.
Attention: It’s about tuning in to the here and now. Observing others and the
environment around you. Expanding perception and mindfulness.
Awareness: Self-study-discovering what do you believe, feel, need, and want? Gaining skills to effectively communicate this. Feeling seen, heard, valued, and safe. Loving yourself and caring for others.
Avoidance: Taking steps to stay safe, not only physically but emotionally.
Action: The last resort, is to defend yourself if you are bullied or threatened.
How do you stop bullying? You become 100% responsible for your feelings, thoughts, and behaviors and learn how to communicate them assertively
Ways to connect with Milam:
Website and Programs Offered:
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson ** 01:21
Well, hello once again, and welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet. And as I always love to say the unexpected is the fun part about it. And I just learned how unexpected this is. I told her I was going to do this. Our guest today is Suzanne Jean who was on vacation in Maui. Can you believe it? Geez. And we didn’t get invited along. And neither did any of you. I think that this is something that we need to discuss in some way. But Suzanne, seriously, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We’re really glad you’re here and that you took the time to do this on a vacation.
Suzanne Jean ** 01:56
Oh, thank you my call and only for you when I get off the beach.
Michael Hingson ** 02:02
You couldn’t have to be here. You couldn’t have taken the laptop down and done it from the beach. Now there’d be too much surf. Well, well, yeah. Yeah. gotta you gotta do. Got to do what you got to do, right? I think you’re the first person that I least recall, who has talked to us from Hawaii. If there’s been someone else, I don’t recall it. But Well, I’m glad you’re having a good vacation over there. And you’re in a wonderful place for it. So that’s cool. Yeah. Well, tell us a little bit about you kind of as, as I described, I would ask sort of the early Suzanne growing up, what it was like being a kid or what anything like that, that you want to tell us so that we get to know you a little better.
Suzanne Jean ** 02:48
Well, the earliest is and growing up, it was pretty hyperactive, pretty busy girl, always moving. And it was quite interesting. Because I was living in Montreal, I am from Canada, and that’s on the east coast of Canada. And I wasn’t getting a lot of sleep. And my doctor said you have two choices, you have something called ADHD. And I’m gonna give you two choices. You either go on medication, or you take Tai Chi. And I went no, not Tai Chi, because I had seen people doing this very slow exercise. And I was very hyper. So not wanting to go on medication, I agreed to go down and check it out. And so I went to a Tai Chi class and I hated it. It’s the very slow movement. But this woman said to me, Hey, after class, we all go to Chinatown and have a big feast. And it’s only like 250 a person don’t want to come and I said Now we’re talking. So I had some motivation to go back to Tai Chi. And I I found it really did help me and helped me relaxed my metabolism. And it was the first beginnings of being mindful. And fast forward. I came to Vancouver and I went to find a Tai Chi teacher because now this is my, this is my prescription. I and I met this Tai Chi teacher and he said, Why are you doing tai chi? And they said, Because I you know, it’s good for me. I’m, it’s good for for my well being. And he said, No, you need to come to karate. And I said karate, I don’t want to do karate and he said absolutely. You’re born to do karate. He said, Come on over. So I said, I’ll come to one class. He was also a tai chi. He was a Tai Chi teacher and he was just teaching Tai Chi to to make money to do while he was doing his PhD. So I went to his karate class and I never I walked out the door and bought my GI and I have never stopped. And I am now I just had my 70th birthday. So I’ve been doing martial arts since I was about 17. When did you move? Oh, go ahead. I continue to do Tai Chi.
Michael Hingson ** 05:18
Good for you, you know, stay loyal? Yes. When did you move to Vancouver,
Suzanne Jean ** 05:25
early 70s. So I moved to Vancouver, and I’m in social services. So I have about 5060 years of community based social service background. And I was working with at risk youth. And I was noticing that we were criminalizing their behavior that the caregivers, people working with these kids couldn’t deal with the aggression and the anger and some of those behaviors. And rather than learn how to deal with that conflict, they were just, you know, putting them in jail, they were ending up. And then it’s a vicious circle. So I began to become interested in how perhaps I could use martial arts and Self Defense in a way to give those workers more a feeling of security around those kinds of behaviors. And so I began to work doing that kind of de escalation training, and it was quite successful. And I, I began to see how I could build confidence quite quickly, through self defense. So that was the first seeds of realizing that there is some real power here. Because with with the dynamics of bullying, and aggression, and any kind of aggression, it’s fundamentally a study of power. And when you can teach self defense and the pillars of the program as they evolved, you can see real substantial change in terms of, you know, giving youth and children insights into their strengths, and their unique qualities and their abilities to be safe. And so it kind of grew from there. I have written a book and and the first chapter of the book, there’s a very interesting story, because I was teaching self defense to women, as well as and studying martial arts quite seriously. And I got a call one day, and it was from a woman and she said, your name Suzanne. I said, Yes. She said, I heard on the street that you’re okay. And I said, really? No. Yeah, I said, and she says, I’m a sixth grade worker, and we’re in trouble. There’s a serial killer. And two of my friends have been murdered. And we need self defense. And I, and this took really took me aback, right. I was like, what? And she said, Will you teach us and I said, Well, I’ll agree to meet with you, and see if that would be viable. I have no idea at this point. And so she set up a meeting and the meeting was at two in the morning at a restaurant, and I arrived, and there were 50 women showed up for the meeting, in the middle of the night. And we chatted and I had no idea if I you know, I’ve never done anything like this before. They had no idea. But I wanted to help them. Because they were so sincere. And I said, Look, there’s we’ll give it a go. I said there’s three conditions you show up and you’re not wasted on drugs and alcohol, you know, you’re in good, fairly good shape, you show up, and that you just give it 100% You give it everything you have. So the woman, Rhonda, the the woman who was organizing the whole thing said, I know the minister at the church, and I’m sure he’ll let us practice there. And I think the classes should be 730 in the morning before we go to bed after work. So I was like, again, just like okay, so mostly they could meet the condition of giving it everything but you know, they would come off their shifts, or they were and it was amazing. And to see the sentence of To see the change in them to see them grow, to start to recognize the community and support each other. And realize, you know, if a car if if Sunland felt the car was unsafe to get into, they would they wouldn’t do it. They started learning the moves. And it was a remarkable learning experience for me, I was just so impressed with that. It’s at least
Michael Hingson ** 10:32
good that they, they did it at a fairly decent hour in the morning, but before they went to bed, that’s pretty cool. But 730 In the morning, better than 2am Every day, I’ll say. But by the same token, I can see what you’re saying that you are teaching them self defense. And probably a lot of them, maybe most of them felt somewhat defenseless right from the outset. And so you are instilling a lot of confidence in these women where they didn’t have it before.
Suzanne Jean ** 11:07
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And so as my program, my program is called power, and as I said, you know, it is it is a study of power. And there’s four pillars to the program. And the first pillar is attention. And that’s around tuning into the here and now and really observing yourself observing others observing the environment around you. And the you know, as they say, where your attention goes, your energy flows, so much of, for young people, so much of the world is in this little box, right? It’s in social media, it’s on telephones, it’s gaming, it’s on computers. And they’re not looking at words, they’re not looking at each other. In, in a way, that’s when I saw when I do these classes, and we have discussions, they think it’s rocket science, Oh, can we do that, again, that was really great. No, we’re just we’re having a conversation. But if you think about their world, that kind of attention is not something that’s, that’s common. It’s not common. And part of that also, what I teach is being able to recognize LOA allies and people that can support you in your life. The second pillar is really the heart and soul. And that’s awareness. And that is building self study, bringing people to recognize what they truly believe and feel and what they want. And then having the skills gaining the skills to be able to communicate it. So in order to force somebody to say no to getting into a car, right, that could be a threat to them to their lives, they have to care about themselves, they have to take that step where I do care about myself, and I’m not going to take that chance. So having that awareness and that self love loving yourself loving others, that piece is all about the self awareness pillar. So this is not, you know, you think of self defense, you just think of the physical, and I take it to a whole different level, I take self defense to a whole different level, a psychological level. The fourth, the third pillar is avoidance. And that’s all the things you do to stay safe. And again, it ties into attention, recognizing what those things are, but and not not safety just from a physical but from a most emotional. So kids do learn street smarts, and they learn that sort of thing. But then they learn a little bit more about how to set boundaries for themselves, how to be emotionally safe. And in the way the awareness piece helps them to communicate that to others and set those boundaries with other people. And then the final one is the action piece. So that’s where they have the skills to defend themselves physically and emotionally. If they’re bullied or they’re threatened. And the action piece is doesn’t stop again, with just the physical, it moves into being able to make good choices and good decisions for yourself. So all those four pillars kind of are they’re interrelated. But they support they support it pretty good mindset. So the program the classes themselves, involve physical self defense. discussions, self awareness exercises, perception exercises mindfulness, and physical, you know, games, they’re pretty well rounded, because it has to be fun, I’m not going to get children and youth doing this unless it’s really fun.
Michael Hingson ** 15:18
You mentioned before about the fact that a lot of their behaviors, over the years have become more criminalized and so on. Do you think that the behavior of children and younger people has actually grown worse? Or a relatively speaking or that people perceive that it has? Or is that really something that’s happening, much less the fact that now we don’t want to deal with it, we just send them off to jail?
Suzanne Jean ** 15:50
Yeah, I think there’s elements that really, that make it a little more extreme, like get the gang thing. I mean, we all want a sense of belonging. And if kids can, in a really nurturing community and a healthy community, they’re going to find a sense of belonging somewhere else, and the gang is a is a perfect place for it. And so, you know, my job is to really try to prevent, to teach them how to how to have that sense of community without needing to go to those places. And we have to talk to kids, we have to talk to her children. And, you know, sometimes I’m criticize, or you’re opening these cans of worms, you’re talking about these subjects, you know, sexual abuse and these subjects that we shouldn’t be talking about suicide, and I said, No, we need to talk about these things. And we need to talk about how we can feel different, like how we can feel better about ourselves. And so those, that’s where they really do appreciate those discussions, you know, because they’ll say, Oh, I didn’t know, anybody else felt like that. Because they’re not texting and you feel like, oh, that’s how I feel, right? This is important to know that, you know, or if I do this, it hurts. And what does that feel like? And why do you want to hurt somebody? Right?
Michael Hingson ** 17:20
That’s so much of we’re losing in the whole art of conversation, I’ve read articles about how we’re, even as adults, forgetting the art of conversation, and we go way out on power trips, and other things like that we don’t talk, we don’t discuss feelings at all. That doesn’t mean that every other sentence has to be about how we feel. But we really should do a lot more conversing and interacting and true engaging than we tend to do these days.
Suzanne Jean ** 17:55
And I’ll just do simple lead ins to that, like, I have a sheet of all these feelings, and I’ll do what I call a parent shear, where I say, Pick somebody you don’t know, and, and choose a feeling of fear that you felt recently and tell another person about when you felt it and why. And that’s the exercise. And they love it. Because they’re talking about themselves. Right. And it’s the lead in for me, obviously, to go into anger and teaching them about anger. Which, you know, again, leads into aggression and violence. And understanding that, and so you’re right, it’s a wonderful opportunity to bring get to and, you know, I think, for sure, Zoom has brought us all together and certainly through the terrible time of COVID. But having face to face having kids face to face, is where it needs to happen. And the physical self defense obviously has to be
Michael Hingson ** 19:00
tastefully physical, right? But even with Zoom, there are a lot of opportunities to augment the process, although it’s not quite the same as physically being there, but you can do a lot with Zoom. You certainly can’t do with texting.
Suzanne Jean ** 19:18
Yeah, for sure. For sure. But it is, yeah, it’s those groups that I can really build the awareness in.
Michael Hingson ** 19:29
Well, age wise, you and I are pretty similar. I’m three years ahead of you. So not much, but we came up in went to school in the same general era. So one of the things that it seems to me we are facing a lot more now is this whole issue of bullying. I don’t remember even being a blind kid in school. Ever been a real victim of bullying? I think there was was one time when one kid did but I never really found that was an issue and I never heard about it growing up. And although I wasn’t in the big city, but still, I think I hear about it a lot more. Was your experience the same? And if so, why is it that it is so much more an issue? Or why are we seeing so much more bullying today?
Suzanne Jean ** 20:19
I think it’s because we don’t have healthy, self confident, confident kids who really know who they are. And, you know, they don’t, they don’t can’t describe their values, they they’re uncertain about their strengths are so much I, I pick up so much fear, and so much uncertainty and kids today, they don’t, they don’t believe the world is gonna, you know, they, the climate change, and all of these different things are a major factor for them in terms of their security. And I think that, out of that comes this this easy place to just put down others to feel better, you know, in any kinds of differences.
Michael Hingson ** 21:07
Yeah, because we, we don’t have support systems like we used to, I remember growing up talking with, with other kids. And even more important, talking with my parents, and we talked about feelings, we talked about any issues that we felt sometimes we were a little reluctant, as kids are with parents, but still, our parents knew how to bring things out of us and really have those discussions. And there’s so many reasons why it doesn’t happen today. How do you get parents to deal with that with kids? Because as you said, the problem is all too often now we criminalize things. And parents haven’t really learned that they need to deal with creating more self confident kids. How do we deal with that?
Suzanne Jean ** 22:01
Well, we’ve got to give them more time. I think that one of the things that, you know, if you look at families, and you look at all the commitments, and two working parents and all the pressures, there’s a lot of latchkey kids, that are just coming home, and there’s nobody there. And they need to be listened to. And often they don’t even want you to solve anything, they just want you to listen, right? But if there’s nobody there to listen, I’m very adamant that we have to address conflict and bullying in the schools in the communities. And we have to say, Well, why don’t you just say, No, we have to take a stance. I mean, it is a World Health Organization, major issue, now they’ve declared it, it is so prevalent compared to when you and I were were young. And I think if you don’t take a stand and you don’t deal with it, then it’s just gonna continue. And I believe that it has to be everybody on the same page coming together. Because it’s so it’s so often people don’t want to deal with conflict. And if you can teach people how to steps to deal with conflict in a way that’s really positive and has an amazing positive outcome, then they’re more apt to try to do it the next time. Right? Right. But if everybody just turns their head, I mean, as there’s another story in my book, this was in Canada, um, this boy was being seriously bullied at school and the teachers knew the principal’s knew. The parents knew, and they did nothing. And he, his mum arrived at school in time to see him being murdered. And everybody went, right. But there was no intervention. And all of those people, including those boys had, that were bullying needed to be part of something to make that difference. Because a life was taken. And yeah, it’s pretty that’s an extreme case, but it happens in so many ways. One of the things with the kids, I do this exercise, Michael, and it is the most amazing, I do it in the first session. And I divide the group into three, and they have a big piece of paper and they answer the question, what is bullying? Why do kids bully and what can be done about bullying? And they and the papers moved from person to person, right? So all three groups get to answer all the questions and then they choose somebody to report that. Well, this is the first time that the bully and the bullied are sitting side by side and it’s all are often the first time that the bully gets to see what other kids think of them. And they’re described as weak as having problems. Problems at home, as like, you know, how. And you I, as an instructor, I can just tell which, which kids or which, right that looks on their faces. Because they don’t, they’ve never seen them that other kids saw them that way. So I, my daughter is an instructor in in a middle elementary school. And she said, Mom, I really want you to come and do this program with me because there’s a kid in the program, and he’s, he’s a real bully. And he’s a problem. And they’re say, he’s going to ruin the class. I’m not, and I don’t have the skills to deal with his behavior. So I’d love it if you did it with me. And I said, Absolutely, I’ll do. So yeah, the principal and all the teachers had nothing but terrible things to say about this kid. I call them Johnny in the book. And we were doing this exercise. What is it really? Why do people believe what can you do bubbling? And little, this other kid, I was in the group with Johnny. And this other kid looked at me, and he said, you know, you’re a bully, don’t Johnny. And I thought, oh, here we go. He’s gonna escalate. You know, we’re gonna have a big scene now. And Johnny looked at me said, I know, but I don’t want to be. And my heart just broke. And it was like, after this exercise, he made a 360 change. And he was, because he just saw it. He saw how I love
Michael Hingson ** 26:45
me. But why did he bully in the first place? Oh, he had?
Suzanne Jean ** 26:49
Yeah. The usual has, he was beaten? At home. Right? Yeah, that’s, that’s how you solve problems. You just hit somebody. But he had never, he had never had positive attention. So he happened to be he was a little Irish boy. And he happened to be so good at the techniques. So suddenly, other kids present, Oh, Johnny, you’re really good at that. And I always do this, this demo thing like demo, and everybody shows their stuff. And, and he chose stuff. And, and at the end, the principal came in to see a demonstration at the end of the program, and you shouldn’t have seen that kid shine. And and the principal is just like, I don’t believe this, you know, and I said, Well, that’s, that’s the power of awareness. That’s the power of awareness. That’s holding an app and saying this, I don’t, I don’t want to be this, I want to be something else helped me be that. And for a lot of kids, it’s shining the light, it’s shining the light for them. Right?
Michael Hingson ** 27:48
It literally is true that poor Johnny didn’t know anything else until you had this, this class in this program.
Suzanne Jean ** 27:57
That’s what he knew. That’s what he knew. So he was a bully, and he happy and, and, which is another thing they say about, you know, the kids say about bullies as well, they’re very unhappy. They’re very angry, they’re very unhappy. You know, they just want to let they just want to act tough. They just want to, yeah, they’re just really weak. It’s like, wait a minute, I’m the tough guy. Yeah, so it’s, it’s, it’s the power, it’s the power of awareness. So it’s changing. It’s really, you know, moving those topics through and, and, and then more and more, I’ve been experimenting with mindfulness, giving them some tools to calm their calm their mind self regulation tools, because there’s a lot of anxiety. And I think that also feeds into bullying. And it’s, it’s that kind of nonspecific, general anxiety. Like, you know, you’d need to be a psychologist, I guess, to get to the bottom of it, but it, it’s messy. And it has a lot of weird sorts of characteristics in terms of behavior. But yeah, so I’m doing more of that, like, you know, breathing and slowing it down looking and they really liked those exercises. They liked the body scans and and the little guys will say, Oh, could you do that thing? Suzanne, where you put us to sleep? Yeah, I can do that again. So this program is really eclectic. I mean, it’s got all these elements but it as I said, it breaks very nicely into those four pillars of attention, awareness. Avoid Then Senate action and taking a real direct route to trying to put some strategies in place to avoid bullying. So, in the book, in one of the chapters, I talk about how any organization can set up an anti bullying program in school, and the steps to doing that, I have done this. And they can, they can change the culture of their organization, if they put the steps into place. And those steps involve the parents. They involve the teachers, they involve the students, the peers, they involve the bullies. And the administration. So it’s, it’s a real program.
Michael Hingson ** 30:49
Do the kids oftentimes as they become more aware, how do I put this almost take charge and really deal with the bullies in a in a positive way? And, and become part of the solution? Yeah,
Suzanne Jean ** 31:04
you got it, it changes the culture, they decide what’s not okay. And in a really positive way, they they, they start to make that happen? What kind of world do you want to live in? You know, how do you want to feel? Well, and as you
Michael Hingson ** 31:21
said, it’s all about belonging, it’s about belonging. And certainly, if the, a lot of the kids say this is not good behavior, this is not acceptable. And convey that to the bullies or to the people who continue to behave that way, at some point, they’re going to recognize we’re being left out.
Suzanne Jean ** 31:45
Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s not difficult, it’s not difficult to, to put this kind of thing in place. And having fit for defense, having the power ed program in there really takes care of the peer part. Because you can do peer training, you can train those kids to be leaders very easily. I sometimes train them to be navigators to take you know, if kids after they’ve done the program, they often what happens is, they’ll start moving again. And they’ll say, ah, you know, I used to play soccer, or I used to dance or I used to, or I want to study a martial art. And it’s really hard for them to walk through those doors without somebody helping them. So I will sometimes pay kids on our areas to be navigators and to go with those kids. And go to the first martial arts class, you know, figure out where, what a good place would be sometimes with low income kids, we find funding, and just open those doors and get them moving again. And again, as you say, That’s connection back to the community. So that’s priceless. In terms of, you know, we’re, then then we’re at a whole other level in terms of good citizens.
Michael Hingson ** 33:03
Have you can you give us a you know, I love stories, can you give us a couple of stories about bullies who completely turned around and became very successful? And I, you, you gave one, but I’d love to hear, you know, more real success stories and why they’re so important, and maybe how that helped other
Suzanne Jean ** 33:25
people? Well, I, I see change often with the, you know, with the really at risk kids, the angry kids who, who kind of, kind of put that down, they they in the course of of this training, they’ll they’ll put that aside, and they become the ones there’s the they’re the ones who are in foster care, you know, 13 placements, they’re the ones that have have those kind of histories that we would just go, how did they even get here out of the Union survive, right? Yeah. And I have one such girl who I’ve worked with, who went through the program, and I trained her to be an instructor, and she was very out of control in her youth, and hurt a lot of people and hurt herself and was involved in, you know, addiction and the whole nine yards, and came through it. And she just passed past. She just graduated with her degree in social work. Wow. And about a month ago, I got a call to provide a reference for her for a job. And I was so proud to do that. And it was like that the whole continuum, the whole thrown full circle, right? Because all she wanted to do at that point was to give back to other kids and help help other kids who might have had a life like her. So, at some level,
Michael Hingson ** 35:06
she must have wanted to succeed right from the outset, except just didn’t know how to deal with that. And you showed the solution or you showed her away.
Suzanne Jean ** 35:16
And it’s not a straight line, obviously. Right? There’s, you think it’s, you think you’re through the woods, and then the next thing, you know, there’s something else but but the out the final outcome, and I know that she’s, she will just be so wonderful, working with kids, and that’s who she’s going to work with. So, that’s a great story. And then there’s, you know, there’s, there’s the little stories. For, for some kids, it’s so normalized to be bullied, they don’t realize that they’re being bullied. And that’s one of the things in terms of the awareness, they realize what it is, you know, they and what their rights are, what they should, should, how they should be treated. And there was this one, I was doing an elementary school, and this little girl came to me and she says, I’m being bullied. And I said, Oh, and she said, It’s my, my brother, he’s always hitting me, he pulls the chair out from underneath, and I fall, and he hits me, and he slaps me, and he punches me. And he knocks my books out of my hands. And I’m walking to school. And she said, and I’m always scared. And I use bullying me. But she, she had gone to her parents, and they just laughed, and they normalized it oh, oh, he’s just a boy. Right? It’s just being a brother, right? And it’s through the course of of power. He goes, he’s I’m being bullied in and I said, Yeah, you are, and what do you want to do about it? And she said, Well, you talk about having a difficult conversation. She said, I want to have a difficult conversation. And I want to tell him what he’s doing. And I want to tell him how I feel, and that he has to stop. And so I worked with her. We did, we wrote a script, we went through the steps. She practiced it several times. But I was a little worried that he would get really angry and hurt her. So it would they were in the cafeteria for the difficult conversation. And I was kind of just outside. You know, he couldn’t see me, but I could hear it. And she went in there. And she told him and I thought, you know, he’s gonna get super angry, he did get angry. But she continued, and she continued to give him as met the message, I love you, you’re my brother, but you can’t hurt me anymore. This is not okay. And I thought for sure that he was gonna lose it. But he started to cry. And he, he started to cry. And he said, I am so sorry. And then she cried. And they both cried, and they hugged and changed the game. changed the game. Yeah. And that was that would have gone on probably into adulthood. That pain that she was carrying, not only physically but mentally, right.
Michael Hingson ** 38:33
It’s still all about having a conversation.
Suzanne Jean ** 38:37
It’s about having a conversation. And having the skills and having the support behind you. Like she knew I was behind her to like, so she gave her that little bit of extra. She got to practice, you know, she got to know be clear on what she wanted to say. So that’s what are saying, knowing what what it is you believe what it is you want. You have to know that before you can express it to somebody else. Before you can have that conversation in the power elite. These are all really, really I think, Barry’s important tools.
Michael Hingson ** 39:17
You sort of talked about a little bit, but why self defense as part of the whole process? And is that a regular part of all the power ed programs?
Suzanne Jean ** 39:28
Absolutely. Because you can learn something in your body much faster than you can learn it in your head. So I can teach a boundary, a physical boundary and then move that to a psychological emotional boundary and have the kids get it faster. From having that feeling. I can teach defense position and build more confidence in kids being able to step back and protect their vital points than I could for in a month a Sunday. is talking about it. Because they can feel what defense is. They can feel their strength, when they hit a focus pad, they can feel how strong they are. They can let that out that energy out. That pent up anxiety. And I can move them into the parasympathetic nervous system. So they start to let go of all that. And, and get rid of the crazy the crazy head stuff, right? Yeah. So it is, yeah. It’s a direct route. And if when we’re talking adolescents cognitive is not, it’s not the best starting point. I mean, their brains aren’t even developed for the, you know, by the time until they’re 2627. So yeah, I kind of short circuit it, I go into the body into the strength into the temple. And, yeah, that’s where it’s, it’s fast. I can teach lessons fast. And I’ve just kind of, I’m just kind of put this together as I go along, right? I mean, I didn’t have a manual, I wrote the manual. But trying stuff, seeing how it works, evolving it. And I’m still I’m still evolving. As I told you, I’m now I’m adding much more around self regulation and mindfulness and into the program.
Michael Hingson ** 41:32
Have you ever had a situation where you’ve gone through and done a lot of the teaching that you’ve done, and someone feels now that I’ve learned to defend myself and so on that my only way to deal with the bully is through strengthen, go off and deck them or something like that? Or do you find that people really get it and don’t need to go that way?
Suzanne Jean ** 41:55
No, it’s, it’s, it’s not
Michael Hingson ** 41:59
acceptable. But I’m just curious, we have found that that happened throughout
Suzanne Jean ** 42:02
now. It’s mastery over yourself is true power. Right? If you can master yourself, you don’t need to duck the person. You know, there’s no need, you can handle it so much. It just takes care of itself when you have that confidence and that strength and that strength. Over You know, your own emotion. Yeah, it just, it takes that response out of out of the mix. And I’ve never had it happen. And it’s also I teach, you know, lots of schools, and it’s something that teachers worry about, and I have never had any buddy use the physical techniques outside of the classroom. Even bullies? Yeah, never. And I my deal to is, the instructors say this is, you know, this is really, this is special stuff, and you, you use it wrong, no more, you know, you want to learn this, you gotta, you gotta follow the discipline. So there is a, there is a lot of that martial arts discipline that I bring in their, that they respect each other, they show that respect, they understand what hurting is, pain is. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 43:30
And they, and they learn to feel why all this is important. And I’m thinking especially of the bullies who catch on, and realize what they’ve done or should do. And they, of course, as everyone does, but they especially it seems to me, become all the better for it.
Suzanne Jean ** 43:52
That’s right. And it’s always a new day, they can leave it behind, like it’s a new day, they’re gonna learn new things, this is it, you know, this is how we are we become powerful and how we become happy, and how we make good choices for ourselves and good decisions in our lives and how we get the things that we want. And so, yeah, I have not had I have not had an incident of that.
Michael Hingson ** 44:18
And that is that is wonderful in such testimony are testament to the success of the program by any standard, which is which is really great. And it is so unfortunate that we have to encounter so many bullies, and we live in a world where it’s it’s so hard because we’ve got I mean all of our politicians who clearly demonstrate absolutely no respect for each other and are not acting as role models at all. It really makes it hard to view them as leaders because they’re certainly not leading by example other than being jerks a lot of the time.
Suzanne Jean ** 44:58
Yeah, And the thing about the the thing about power as well is, and that power of awareness isn’t so many of our behaviors and our patterns and our habits, like they’re, they’re really unconscious, right? They’re, they’re learned, we learn to be a bully. But they’re not, it’s not their habits. And when you kind of shine the light with like, with Johnny, that’s the beginning of making a positive change. That’s the beginning of change. And I think the main success of this program is that I’m super non judgmental in that, like, we’re not judging, we’re not judging it, we’re together, and we’re where we’re at. And there’s not this, you need to be like this, or that, you know, it’s just, you know, let’s just look at ourselves. Let’s look at why we do things and how we do things. And, and let’s be curious. And so when the light is shone, it’s in that nonjudgmental and the the positive change can happen. Yeah, it just frees it up. It’s I don’t know, it’s it’s the magic to me.
Michael Hingson ** 46:18
I think one of the biggest blessings that I got growing up was that my parents, really in cure encouraged a curious mind and encouraged me to be curious, of course, for me, it was more of a challenge, I guess, in one sense, or more of a necessity, maybe as a better way to put it because being blind, I didn’t necessarily see things the way other kids did. But my parents really encouraged me to explore, and, and ask questions. And as a blind person growing up much before GPS, and a lot of the technologies we had today, asking questions, was the chief way that I would get information. And I wish more people would do that today. And one of the things I say about blindness, people are always thinking they are experts on blindness. And what I tell people all the time is the biggest problem with blind people or people who say they’re experts about blindness is I’ve never tried it. You know, the reality is, it’s, there’s, there’s a lot to learn, it’s not something you’re going to learn overnight, but know, or understand or understand. But the reality is that you can learn to be a very curious person you can learn to explore, and good teachers understand the value of, of exploring and talking and, and truly mentally growing to understand as you go along.
Suzanne Jean ** 47:51
Yeah, I think that’s really critical. And I think it’s, it’s where that kind of development can happen. That personal development and growth is through that is through that curiosity and that willingness to kind of, you know, suspend judgment. And kids are so critical of themselves. I mean, you know, it’s just everything is like, Oh, this is no good. That’s no good. I can’t I can’t, I can’t, I can’t. Yeah, you can. You can, you can. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 48:31
You may not be able to do it yet, or you may not know the right way to do it. But you can and yeah, that’s the biggest issue. When I was born, my parents were told to send me off to a home for handicapped children, because no blind person could ever grow up to do anything in society. And my parents playing out now disagreed with that. And that started the, the pathway that they they and I went on, and I think yes, yeah, absolutely.
Suzanne Jean ** 49:06
Yeah. It’s very special parents, because at that time, you know, there wasn’t, there wasn’t an open mindedness around any disabilities.
Michael Hingson ** 49:20
It goes back to the basic though philosophy of whether it’s disability or not, it still goes back to the basic philosophy of dealing with with kids from a parent’s standpoint. It’s harder today because there are so many things that can get a kid in jeopardy. And I don’t mean that in a negative way, or like bullying, but just in general, and it is so hard to I think it’s really hard to be a kid today because there’s so many dangerous things that you have to deal with. And it’s hard for your parents to deal with, but at the same time, we’ve got to let our kids explore and grow and We have to figure out or learn ways to help them with doing that. And allow them to grow and ask questions and maybe make mistakes and help them, but be part of their lives all the way around. And I know it’s hard, especially with families where you have both parents earning incomes to support the family. But at some point, you got to do some of that.
Suzanne Jean ** 50:25
Yes, you do. And that’s what I’m trying to do. With my program, and the program is for all ages, children and mainstream youth, my particular niche is the more at risk kids and those kids don’t have families. So I tried to work with teaching them how to create a family of choice. Right. Right. And, but yes, for sure. It’s so important. And so that that’s being available. I mean, I was talking about these busy lives, right, being just being around just being available for your kids to talk to you. I mean, if you’re not there, you’re not there. Yeah, yeah. And
Michael Hingson ** 51:17
bottom line is you chose to be parents, mostly. There are some who probably didn’t expect it, but it did happen. And if you keep the child, there are all the responsibilities that go with it. And so at some point, you’ve got to be able to make the time available to, to talk with them and to interact with them and make them feel wanted. And I know that’s a lot of what happens to so many kids, they just really feel they’re not wanted because the parents aren’t around. And maybe they don’t know how to express that to the parents to get the parents to understand why they have to do things a little differently, either.
Suzanne Jean ** 51:55
Yeah, they don’t show important. They’re not a priority.
Michael Hingson ** 52:00
And don’t know how to say that.
Suzanne Jean ** 52:02
Yeah. Don’t know how they don’t know how to express it. But the thing when, when you when I was talking about the anti bullying strategy, when you get kind of everybody in the conversation, it’s a great, it’s, it’s amazing how much people can bring to the table in terms of ideas, right, and commitment. And then nobody’s nobody’s feeling alone, right? Because they’re actually doing something about it. And they’re establishing some guidelines, and they’re there. They’re building an intervention, you have to I said that before you have to intervene, you have to be can’t be afraid of conflict.
Michael Hingson ** 52:52
And you have to be very important. Yeah.
Suzanne Jean ** 52:55
Yeah. But having said talked about all of these things, as I said, this program is super fun. Like, it’s, there’s a lot of play in it, I add a lot of games, and a lot of play. We do. You know, they do slow motion fights, they’re 10 feet away from each other, and they do the slow motion fights, and they do, you know, all kinds of tank games and all kinds of building agility and, and strength, then there’s, they work with focus pads and full noodles. And there’s all kinds of all kinds of things going on. So it’s really it is really fun.
Michael Hingson ** 53:39
What is the focus pad?
Suzanne Jean ** 53:42
A focus pad is a hard, well, it’s not that hard. It’s a target that you use that you hit. Okay, so you learn punches, and but you actually get to snack something. So you get to feel your strength, you get to feel your strength, right, you get to follow through, and you get to exhale and focus your technique on focus, Pat, Better that than on a person. And it’s a great feeling.
Michael Hingson ** 54:09
There you go. Yeah, we’ve, we’ve talked about parents a lot and so on. What do you say to parents who say, Well, I just don’t have any time because we’re both working all the time. You know, we’ve talked about those double income parents, but what what do you say to them?
Suzanne Jean ** 54:24
Create, Create some opportunities, create some special special time? Right? If you’re both working like take make Saturday. Family time? Yeah. Where everybody you know, every week you get different person gets to choose what you do, but you do something together every week, right? You have to set you have to make it happen. You have
Michael Hingson ** 54:49
to make it happen. And that’s the real issue, isn’t it?
Suzanne Jean ** 54:52
Michael Hingson ** 54:55
It’s it’s got to be a priority. To keep the family together, and I think that’s also partly something that a lot of parents haven’t learned. And, you know, you said there’s no manual for a lot of this, there isn’t necessarily a great manual for, for being parents, or at least parents don’t seem to want to read the manuals that might help them a lot or, or haven’t found them.
Suzanne Jean ** 55:23
Yeah, so one of the manuals for parenting that I got being a parent is that the best form of discipline is natural consequences. Yeah, that if there is a punishment of some kind, it has to be a consequence of that particular behavior. And it has to be within a short timeframe. And it has to be, it has to make sense. And it has to be consistent. Yeah. And so that’s with what I teach in terms of setting up interventions with bullying, that there’s a natural consequence to things. And that the person that’s been harmed and the person that’s harming figure that out together, yeah, there you go. And it’s a natural consequence. So if you, you know, if you ripped up my scribblers or they still called scrollers.
Michael Hingson ** 56:25
If you punched a hole in my, my mat,
Suzanne Jean ** 56:29
you broke if you broke my earbuds,
Michael Hingson ** 56:36
there has to be a consequence. And
Suzanne Jean ** 56:38
yeah, you’re gonna, you know, you’re gonna save up your money and buy new some new ear buds. And say, sorry,
Michael Hingson ** 56:46
right, and that saying, Sorry, is a significant part of it, it isn’t just replacing the ear buds. It’s very being sorry, 21. and a half years ago, I worked in the World Trade Center and an escaped, and for for all the time, since then, I have talked a lot about not being really afraid. And there were reasons I wasn’t afraid. But the the biggest reason was that I had created a mindset by learning a lot of things like what to do in an emergency in the World Trade Center. Also, having at that time worked with five guide dogs, I learned a lot of the same kinds of concepts that we’re talking about here. There’s a consequence for bad behavior. And it’s not just when the dog behaves badly. But if I don’t handle things in the right way, then I have to make amends and deal with the two because we as a team have to respect each other and make no mistake about it. It is a two creature team, both of whom have feelings. And both of whom might sense when the other does something that isn’t supposed to be done. And you do you do have to fix it. But during the during the pandemic, I’ve realized that we don’t talk about how to control fear or anything like that. So we’re actually writing a new book called A Guide Dogs Guide to Being brave. And the idea is to teach people also about the fact that fear is not something that as I put it needs to blind you, you can use it as a very positive powerful thing. There’s a lot of physical, physiological natural reactions, but you can learn to use fear in a very positive way. And that’s, in part the kinds of things you’re saying as well.
Suzanne Jean ** 58:30
Absolutely, it is very much the same. And when, when you’re doing physical techniques together, and you’re practicing those things, you come face to face with, you know, your own protection. And it’s an interesting thing, to believe in yourself, you have to trust yourself, you have to trust yourself, and you had to trust your dog as well, right. And it definitely, the fight or flight response is in that limbic brain it’s in and it has to, in order to come out of that and be able to think, move breve function. These are the skills that you’re building.
Michael Hingson ** 59:31
But it is a two way, but it is a two way street. So the dog has to trust me as well. You know, the purpose of the dog is to make sure that we walk safely, not to know where to go and how to get there and there are a lot of reasons for that. But the dog has to trust me as well. And one of the things that I have said many times is while dogs love unconditionally, they don’t trust unconditionally but the difference between dogs or most dogs unless they’re really abused But the difference basically between dogs and people is, dogs are at least open to trust and they’re at least open to trying to develop a trusting relationship. And we’ve been taught in so many ways, not to trust, to be fearful to be fearful.
Suzanne Jean ** 1:00:17
And and when you were coming out of the Trade Center were you confident that you were going to make it I was confident
Michael Hingson ** 1:00:27
I was going to make it. But at the same time, I kept an ear open like listening for the first sounds of the building groaning or something like that. So I, I stayed observant. But what happened for us was that the airplane struck 18 floors above us on the other side of the building, so neither I nor anyone else in my office or around me, or as we were going down the stairs, any of the people near me on the stairs, knew what had happened, we figured out an aeroplane must have hit the building, because we smelled in the stairwell, the fumes from burning jet fuel. But we didn’t really think, well, most of us didn’t really think that we would perish. There were a couple of times that some people started to panic. And we we worked on that all of us knew we had to keep everyone focused and going down the stairs. And we did that. And one of the people who at one point, Panic was my colleague, David Frank, who was in our office that day from our corporate office in California, because he was going to be talking about pricing. We were doing sales seminars for 50 people. They hadn’t arrived yet. But David was there because he was responsible for a lot of the distribution and reseller pricing. And David on the 50th floor, said, Mike, we’re gonna die. We’re not going to make it out of here. And I just snapped at him very deliberately, David, stop at a for sale, and I can go down the stairs, so can you. And what David then did was, he said, I want to walk a floor below you, and shout up to you what I see on the stairs, because I gotta take my mind off of thinking about what might happen. And he and he did that all the way down the stairs. Did I need him to do it? I didn’t need him to do it. But when Gates did it, he needed to do it. But you know, what was even better about it was that he became a beacon for anyone within the sound of his voice. Mike, I’m on the 44th floor. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is going on down, not stopping. And so anyone who heard him knew there was someone on the stairs, who was okay. Now to David, think about that going down the stairs. I’ve never heard him say that he did. But still, he had to keep 1000s of people focused just by his shouting, as we went down the stairs, which I think is incredibly cool. Because he needed to do it for himself. And it turns out helped so many other people along the way as well.
Suzanne Jean ** 1:02:54
Amazing. Yeah, wonderful story.
Michael Hingson ** 1:02:58
It is it is one of those things that, you know, doesn’t get talked about much. But it but it did happen. But for me, I didn’t worry about it. And as I would tell people now one of our biggest problems in the world is we worry about so many things, rather than just worrying about what we can control, we stop worrying about all the things we can control and just worry about what we can, we would be much less stressed, and much better off.
Suzanne Jean ** 1:03:22
And that’s why I’m working hard to build confident, healthy kids. So we can control that we can give them those skills, we can give them the ability to make choices and to feel strong, and to be an entity and deal with their fears. And they have a lot of fears. Like I was saying, you know they’re, they’re pretty discouraged. Yeah.
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:52
And, and advice aren’t helping.
Suzanne Jean ** 1:03:55
And when I first when I first started working in the field, kids, this kind of kids at risk kids, they were much more scrappy, they had more energy, they were you know, they had more resilience, I guess, is what I’m trying to say. And now there’s this sense of defeat, depress there. I was I had a recent class and we were talking about anger and triggers what like what, what makes you what pisses you off? What makes you angry? You know, what makes you go from zero to 10 in terms of a trigger, and all all 10 of them, there’s 10 of them in the group and they want to Oh, nothing nothing bothers me. Nothing makes me mad and, and oh, no, I don’t have any triggers. And we went around the group and there was this one guy was an athlete. He was a rugby player and he says, Come on, man. Like, you know, you’re on the field and someone just says you you don’t get pissed off, like in the sport. No, I expect that that’s just part of the game. So we went all around the group, and in this program, staff bring their dogs to work. And the kids love the dogs. And the dogs come in the classroom all the time. And they love the dogs. So they got that we got back to the to me. And I said, Okay, that’s amazing. None of you have any triggers. So it’s like, perfectly okay for someone to kick a dog. And they just went ballistic. They were like, No, you can’t kick a dog. What did the dog ever do to you? And oh, wow. And I, you know, and they were all 10 of them were chirping away. They were like, Yeah, bla bla bla bla. And I said, I think I, I think you have a trigger. And then some of them were took that and they said, and it’s the same with people. Like it’s not okay to diss people. It’s not okay to just like, you know, just put them down for no reason. And suddenly, this whole discussion was happening with this, but prior to me provoking them, it was like, No, everything’s cool now. Everything’s cool. Everything’s cool. Yeah, no, it’s not. No, it’s
Michael Hingson ** 1:06:13
not. You just aren’t ready to admit it yet. You’re just not ready to acknowledge it. But and it’s to use the same terminology, sometimes a challenge, but you found the trigger?
Suzanne Jean ** 1:06:27
Yes, I certainly did. Which is, which is great. Which is really kind of funny is when we’re, yeah. Anyway, that’s a cute story that happened very recently.
Michael Hingson ** 1:06:38
What do you do when you’re not doing Power ed, and teaching and so on?
Suzanne Jean ** 1:06:43
I worked in social services. For many years, I ran a couple of agencies and mental health agency and an addiction agency. I built them from scratch and ran them. I then went on to work in quality assurance, which is kind of seeing that organizations maintain a really high level of standards around service delivery, and business standards in social services.
Michael Hingson ** 1:07:11
But what do you do today to relax to get away from all of this, other than making a trip to Hawaii?
Suzanne Jean ** 1:07:16
Can I continue to do martial arts? I’m working on my third degree black belt. And I’d like to achieve this year I still do Tai Chi, I do yoga. I said before, I’m very hyper, I have a lot of energy. I wrote my book. And so I’ve been promoting the book I’ve been teaching developing instructors. So my program is that it’s a train the trainer, so I trained instructors to run the program. So I’ve been doing lots of that. I have some grandbabies. I have three grandkids, here you go. And they are joy, a total joy. I’m loving that. And yeah, I think life is good. Life is great.
Michael Hingson ** 1:08:03
I mean, that’s that’s the way it should be, you know, you can always find negative things, but you can always find positive things. And there’s, you know, there’s no reason to consider life in a negative way of their lives. It’s too much of an adventure, not to want to be part of it.
Suzanne Jean ** 1:08:18
And like you said, Michael, so much to be curious about, even ourselves learning about ourselves still. There’s so much it’s just I No two days are ever the same. Which is great. Yeah. So Well,
Michael Hingson ** 1:08:36
this has been fun. And we need to let you go back to your vacation. And remember, I told you, we might go more than an hour, we have now gone 67 minutes. So we’re doing well. We could probably keep going and you’re very generous and kind of your with your time.
Suzanne Jean ** 1:08:53
Well, it’s wonderful talking to you. You’re amazing. If people want to
Michael Hingson ** 1:08:57
reach out to you learn more about the program or whatever. How do they do that?
Suzanne Jean ** 1:09:00
They can go to my website, it’s fit4defense.com, and it’s fit with a 4 pillars and defenses spelt with an S. So it’s fit for defense.com and they can go on the website and learn all about it. Reach out to me. And if anybody is interested in starting an anti bullying program, I’d be happy to to guide them in that process.
Michael Hingson ** 1:09:29
I need to have you have a conversation with my cat. Oh, she’s a wonderful kitty. She likes to get petted while she eats. Literally, she won’t eat unless I’m in there petting her and she yells at me until I come in there and then pet her while she eats and she’ll wake me up during the night. I’ve mostly got a little bit of a detente whether she can only do that once during the night and occasionally she tries to do it more than once and I’ll wake up enough to say Ah, we didn’t once but can’t She’s acuity and wouldn’t have it any other way. It’s great to have a cat that’s engaged in Alamo who is my ace guide dog. And she get along. So that works out well.
Suzanne Jean ** 1:10:12
Michael Hingson ** 1:10:13
But I want to thank Oh, go ahead.
Suzanne Jean ** 1:10:15
It’s been a pleasure talking to you. Well, I
Michael Hingson ** 1:10:17
want to thank you again. And I’d like to thank you for listening. Please give us a five star rating wherever you’re listening to us. We really appreciate those ratings. And also, feel free to give us comments, you can reach out to me via email by going out emailing Michaelhi at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. And AccessiBe is a company that makes products that help make websites more usable for a lot of different kinds of persons with disabilities. You can also go to our podcast page, which is www dot Michaelhingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. But wherever you are, please give us a rating of five star rating. We always love those. And also your comments. And Suzanne, for you or anyone listening if you know of anyone else who we ought to have as a guest, I would sure appreciate you letting us know and giving us an introduction. We’re always looking for people who want to come on and tell their stories like like you Suzanne did today. So hopefully, you might think of other folks. But one last time again, thank you very much for being with us and giving us all your time today. Back to the beach. Back to the beach.
**Michael Hingson ** 1:11:35
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.