Episode 128 – Unstoppable Award-Winning Career Transition Expert with Catherine Altman Morgan
On August 19th of last year in Episode 50 of Unstoppable Mindset we all got to hear an Interview with a brand expert, Ben Baker who was introduced to me by a colleague. The circle now continues as this time I get to talk to Catherine Altman Morgan who was suggested as a podcast by, you guessed it, Ben Baker. Catherine is an author; coach and we all get to hear what else. She grew up in New York City. She lived two years in North Carolina and then moved back North to New Jersey. She attended Vassar College and graduated with a B.A. degree in Psychology.
As a young person just out of college she took the suggestion of her father in Chicago and moved there to work at the Chicago Stock Exchange which she did for five years. She then moved back to New York because she realized that as a phone clerk at the stock exchange, and since she wasn’t great at math, she wasn’t going to make much money. Her next job was as a market analyst at a Technical Analysis software company in New York. She sold and supported trading systems since she knew how to talk to and work with stock traders. She did that for a bit then moved to a company back in Chicago doing the same kind of work. Through work with several firms she continued to do similar work as well as risk and flow analysis.
In 2010 she quit working for other companies and formed her own coaching firm, Point A to Point B Transitions Inc. During our interview Catherine provides many insights about job searches, how to seek a job in today’s technological world and how to interact with prospective employers. Lots of good information to hear whether or not you are looking for a job. Catherine shows us that we can choose to be unstoppable and move forward. Her advice is sound, but even more important, she is not just talk. Her coaching firm has helped many, job seekers or not. I hope you will check it out. Finally, just wait until you hear the news about her newly published book “This Isn’t Working”. Not going to give the news away.
About the Guest:
Catherine Altman Morgan is an award-winning career transition expert who has been coaching clients and colleagues through job and life transitions for more than 20 years. Catherine is the author of the recently released book, This Isn’t Working! Evolving the Way We Work to Decrease Stress, Anxiety, and Depression. She also speaks on topics related to career transition, workplace mental health, and small business/entrepreneurship.
Catherine graduated from Vassar College with a B.A. in Psychology. Before starting her consulting business in 2010, Point A to Point B Transitions Inc., she was employed by KPMG, Arthur Andersen, and Deloitte. She also has been a contractor for Protiviti, Navigant Consulting, and RGP.
With a background in job search, career transition tactics, and business strategy development, Catherine works with clients who have been laid off, believe their situation is unsustainable, or find that whatever they’ve been doing isn’t working for them anymore.
Catherine’s clients have frequently experienced a perfect storm of challenges in their life, including a layoff, health diagnosis, death in the family, divorce, extended time in transition, or financial collapse – often several at the same time. Catherine and her team work with the whole person to get them relaunched.
Links for Catherine:
Facebook business https://www.facebook.com/PointA.PointB
Facebook personal https://www.facebook.com/tapcat
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson 01:16
Well, hello, once again, I’m really glad you’re here to attend and listen to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to interview Catherine Morgan and I met Catherine through another guest that we had on the podcast some time ago, Ben Baker. And Ben said you ought to talk to Catherine and we chatted and it just seemed like it made good sense to bring Catherine on and she’s got some new news to share with us in the course of the day. But Catherine is an author. She’s a speaker, she does a lot of different kinds of things in terms of coaching and teaching. And we’ll get to all that. So Catherine, really, I really appreciate you being here and welcome to unstoppable mindset.
Catherine Morgan 02:06
Thank you so much for having me, Michael.
Michael Hingson 02:10
It’s a pleasure to have you here. Well, let’s start. Like I always like to. I got it from an Alice in Wonderland TV show once at the beginning. So tell us about you growing up and a little bit just about your life and, and all that and how you got to where you are, or at least got to somewhere?
Catherine Morgan 02:29
Sure. Well, I started my early childhood in New York City. Very, very happy city girl. I was there till I was about 10. And then we had a little detour to Blowing Rock North Carolina, which couldn’t have been further from New York City for this girl, who was a little shock to the system. After that, I spent Middle School in high school in the middle of New Jersey near Morris town, which was your very typical suburban existence. We walked everywhere. We rode bikes, the everybody had to come home when the ackermans rang their bell for dinner like we were free range children back then. So it was, you know, sort of the normal American upbringing in the 70s.
Michael Hingson 03:23
Okay, so how long were you in Carolina?
Catherine Morgan 03:28
We were just in Blowing Rock for a year and a half, two years. I don’t remember. It’s kind of a blur. It was. It was lovely. I mean, this so stunningly beautiful there. But yeah, the school system from going from a private, very, very small private school with 24 kids per grade to four classes per grade of 24 kids. Each was a little bit of an adjustment for me.
Michael Hingson 03:57
You survived though.
Catherine Morgan 03:59
Yeah, I came out and I did. I was a good student. I did well in middle school in high school and I went to Vassar College, which when I was looking at colleges, I applied to a bunch of them but faster was the only school I wanted to go to and conveniently they agreed that they wanted to have me
Michael Hingson 04:19
well that worked out well. So but when you left Blowing Rock Where did you guys go
Catherine Morgan 04:26
to Mendham New Jersey outside of Morris town in the middle of the state.
Michael Hingson 04:31
Right. So what took you to North Carolina in the first place that job for your one of your parents or what?
Catherine Morgan 04:38
Yeah, my my mother remarried and my stepfather was running a factory in just over the Tennessee border making one who’s in what was he making, making men’s pants
Michael Hingson 04:54
and then why New Jersey?
Catherine Morgan 04:58
Once again, we we follow To my stepfather’s jobs he got a job in New York. And that was a very commutable city because of where how the trains worked. So a lot of people commuted into the city for their work,
Michael Hingson 05:14
I must say, from a transportation standpoint, and having lived in New Jersey for six years, taking the trains into the city, most every day, I very much got used to the trains and love the New Jersey Transit and train systems of New York City. My biggest challenges were getting, oftentimes, from the Westfield train station to home, we used what’s called paratransit under the ADEA. And it was run by New Jersey Transit, but in separate sort of organization, and they were a times they were a little bit of a challenge. But mostly it worked out pretty well. And I was able to get to and from the train station without too much grief or difficulty. But getting on the trains and going into the city was always a wonderful thing, because you could go without needing to worry about driving or any of those kinds of things. And I know people who took Amtrak, even from Bucks County in Pennsylvania, and they would just be on the train for a couple of hours. And they form groups and they worked on the trains or they just had conversation groups and did other things on the train going to and from the city. So trains are wonderful things.
Catherine Morgan 06:30
I agree. I find them very relaxing my system sort of down levels and gets very relaxed on trains.
Michael Hingson 06:39
So what did you get your degree in from Vassar?
Catherine Morgan 06:43
Michael Hingson 06:44
Right? Okay. Did you go beyond a bachelor’s degree?
Catherine Morgan 06:49
No, I didn’t, I had always intended to go back and get a masters or something, you know, in my 40s. And that just isn’t how my life ended up. So I do something that’s sort of related. And certainly my interest is very sight, the psychological side of business, but I did not pursue further education.
Michael Hingson 07:16
So what did you do once you left faster?
Catherine Morgan 07:21
Well, like most people just out of college, if you’re not going directly into law school, or med school or something, you have no idea what you’re doing. And my father was out here in Chicago, and he was working on the Options Exchange. And he said, Well, why don’t you come out here and try that since you don’t know what else you want to do. And it was 1984 before the crash of 1987. And those three years, everybody was getting rich, and it was fast moving and fun and young, and just with open outcry was really a great place to work and in your 20s Let’s just put it that way. And I had way too much fun that I’m not willing to share about.
Michael Hingson 08:11
And besides that, you went to a place that had great hotdogs and great pizza. Oh, yeah, gotta have your priorities, right?
Catherine Morgan 08:20
Michael Hingson 08:22
I always love when I go to Chicago going to UNO’s among other places and getting their deep dish pizza, my relatives who live there, always insist that we should go to UNO’s and I have to agree it’s pretty good. It’s pretty good. So what did you do in Chicago then?
Catherine Morgan 08:40
So I was a phone clerk on the Options Exchange, which meant I was down there with 1000s of people screaming in the pits, executing orders I was on the side actually taking the orders and making sure that the runners got the orders out to the brokers in the crowd. It was it was it was crazy times back then I can’t really describe the noise level and the close proximity because I had about a foot and a half of personal space where I was I had a foot and a half of desk standing right next to somebody else who had the other foot and a half and I had my order pad and my phone and that’s it there was me a foot and a half of space ordered pad phone on the phone all day long taking orders recording orders it was it’s kind of hard to explain. But it was it was fast paced and and like I said in your 20s Young and fun.
Michael Hingson 09:41
Yeah, it’s it’s probably fair to say you haven’t lived until you’ve observed a stock trading for close up there. They are crazy places.
Catherine Morgan 09:54
Yes. Back in the day with open outcry the noise level we is just something you can’t have Yeah, I guess if your staff, you’ve been to an arena show and somebody makes a shot and the crowd goes nuts, that was not an unusual noise level on the floor.
Michael Hingson 10:09
Yeah, constantly as opposed to just when somebody makes a shot. And there’s just so much going on and so much activity and as you said, you’re taking orders. And then people have to run them out to the traders, to the brokers and the people actually on the floor who do the things that they do. And the constant byplay, it’s, it’s an amazing place to be. It’s a pretty incredible and last,
Catherine Morgan 10:34
yeah, it’s really fast. So that was made an indelible impression on me.
Michael Hingson 10:41
Also, you didn’t dare make a mistake, because one mistake could cost people incredible sums of money. I know I was in the business of selling the products that people used, and attached to their networks to backup data. So we sold the hardware. We were actually at a while we were out at Salomon Brothers at that time, they existed still in New Jersey, and Rutherford, and one of the people was talking to us about backups and the fact that if anything happened, at the trading floor in New York, they actually had two additional backup sites in Florida, somewhat underground, so hurricanes couldn’t get to them. But they said, We don’t dare even be down for a second, we would lose millions of dollars a second if we weren’t able to stay up all the time. So the pressure had to be even for you incredible.
Catherine Morgan 11:41
Yes, it was. And obviously, we’re humans and mistakes were made. But they were rectified quickly. And you made as few of them as possible.
Michael Hingson 11:53
Yeah. And the people who could deal with it and fix whatever needed to be fixed, could stay around, and the people who made too many mistakes would be gone. Quickly. But you still have your hearing. So you survived. Did you have any way to protect your hearing? Did you have a headset or anything?
Catherine Morgan 12:12
No, we didn’t really think that back then there were some people who are on headsets? I did not. And my my hearing is a little wonky. It might have been the rock concerts, though. I can’t necessarily blame the trading floor.
Michael Hingson 12:30
Okay. Well, so how long did you do that?
Catherine Morgan 12:35
Almost five years. Wow,
Michael Hingson 12:36
you did it for quite a while. What caused you to switch?
Catherine Morgan 12:41
Well, oddly enough, I’m not good at math. I have a really good memory. And I’m a really good parent. So I was an excellent phone clerk. But I was never going to make that jump to the next level because I’m terrible with math. So I left that. And I went to work for a technical analysis software firm in New York, selling or supporting trading systems and traders because I understood how to talk to these people. And they, they do need somebody who understands their personality types and their language. So I did quite well with that spent the next phase of my career in market data and trading systems and that sort of thing.
Michael Hingson 13:25
So did you do that from Chicago? Or did you move back to New York?
Catherine Morgan 13:29
I moved to New York, and stayed there for four years, and then came screaming back to Chicago and I left.
Michael Hingson 13:38
All right. So which place has better pizza Chicago or New York?
Catherine Morgan 13:43
They’re utterly different. I almost think they should have different names. Yeah. They’re utterly different. A New York just flat white pizza, is God’s gift to pizza, in my opinion. And then, you know, there’s the deep dish or the stuffed or the, I don’t know, there’s so many different kinds of Yeah.
Michael Hingson 14:04
Yeah. And they are different and it is unfair to compare the two. I agree. So we should just have both of them around. It’s okay. So you went screaming back to Chicago, and did what
Catherine Morgan 14:21
I was still in the market data. I went to work for a company selling trading systems and market data. And I was selling down on this the CBOE floor and the Chicago Stock Exchange and the Merc so I was very comfortable going down and talking to traders on trading floors or going into trading rooms, which, you know, as a woman in especially in the ad, well, that was nowhere in the 90s. You know, I was the only woman in the room almost always throughout my career, because it was a back then quite a male dominated industry. Yeah.
Michael Hingson 15:02
So, you How did that work out for you, though? Did were there challenges? So you worked out pretty well. And it worked
Catherine Morgan 15:10
out really well, because I could often get in the appointment. And I, you know, they would try and do the rough and tumble thing with me. And I was just right there with them. So I was not once you worked on a trading floor, nobody can intimidate you. So you would they would, they would come at me. And, you know, because I looked really young and I was young. But they couldn’t intimidate me. What kinds of
Michael Hingson 15:37
things that they tried to do.
Catherine Morgan 15:39
Um, I don’t know, you know, just the coughing of a very successful trader, there’s a little proving and posturing. And, you know, I, I made a million dollars yesterday and type of swagger II things like, you know, good to be you. Like, I hope your wife is happy, did you buy a boat, like I just wasn’t faced with that sort of thing?
Michael Hingson 16:07
Yeah, it’s all about intimidation. And, and they do have that kind of an ego. As I’ve mentioned, Salomon Brothers before, of course, the traders were even at Salomon considered the Cowboys. And I don’t know whether there were any women or not, but and cow girls of Wall Street. And they did a lot of things that were risky, not in an illegal or wrong sense. But for example, they were one of the first to adopt Sun Microsystems products as workstations. And people really didn’t know much about Unix, or whatever. And they’re going, these are faster computers. And they, they were the, the innovators. So there’s something not to be said, for having that ego, but for having the courage to explore, taking risks, and trying to improve a process, which also meant what they were trying to do is to get an edge up on their competitors from other companies, but they did it for a while.
Catherine Morgan 17:08
Exactly. Sun was the workstation of choice for all the risk management systems, it was the only one that really had the computing power needed for those types of systems that touched every aspect of the organization.
Michael Hingson 17:21
Right, because they were so fast and so versatile. And doing it in Unix gave them an operating system that had a lot of flexibility that that they needed. And I remember after September 11, we were involved with getting Wall Street back up and running. Because quantum made the backup products default standard, the ATL libraries and the super digital Linear Tape products and so on. So we, we saw a lot of things that people did, including IBM and sun cannibalizing employees, workstations, just to get them over two firms on Wall Street, so that within six days, they got Wall Street back up and running completely.
Catherine Morgan 18:06
Oh my gosh, that was a hot mess. We could spend the entire episode on that. But
Michael Hingson 18:11
yeah, yeah, I remember helping Morgan Stanley and they actually found a place over in Jersey City. They said they found a floor of the size of a football field. And they made that their new trading floor and they got workstations and everything. And within 36 hours, they had a complete replica of their original trading floor up and running, because we were able to give them the product so that they could restore all of their files, which is of course, one of the wisdoms of the Security Exchange Commission, you have to keep data for seven years. So all they had to do was to go to their site off site, get their tapes, bring them in and get everything set up. And when in fact they were all ready to go when Wall Street opened on the 17th of September, and all went pretty seamlessly. That’s incredible. Yeah, it was an amazing feat to see all of that get done. But it’s what they needed to do. And then that’s, that’s part of their skill sets. So well. So you you worked at all of that for a while and you continue to market and then what did you do? So you’re in the 90s and partway through the 90s.
Catherine Morgan 19:25
Then I flipped so I spent about 15 years and in financial services doing what we just talked about. And then I went to work for the professional services firms. The consulting firms servicing the Financial Services vertical. So I worked for KPMG Arthur Andersen, Deloitte and working primarily with financial services but some other industries.
Michael Hingson 19:50
So when you say working with financial services, what does that mean?
Catherine Morgan 19:54
So I would go into one of the major exchanges and help with an opera ational risk assessment I would go to, you know, a large bank and look at the order flow process I would go to we did a bunch of random projects, our group was like a little SWAT team that mostly was focused on the capital markets, because that was our, where our senior manager had connections. So he was, that’s where he was selling business.
Michael Hingson 20:27
And so what you were doing was to try to improve processes and make their their systems work more efficiently and more effectively.
Catherine Morgan 20:37
Some of that, and some litigation support work. So, you know, one company was suing their insurance company, or the insurance company was suing their client for whatever, and we would go in and dig through documents, but it was related to trading and to have pricing, you know, how they price the portfolio? So they needed people with expertise in the financial markets. No, I’m not a commodities person that was always on the equity side. But the people I worked with on my team were commodities experts say
Michael Hingson 21:15
it. Again, it’s the kind of thing that has to be within the infrastructure of the system to help things work. Yes, but so you did that. And then what?
Catherine Morgan 21:32
Well, and then I decided that it was time to start my own business. And I was working with a coach. And my coach said, you know, that resume interview question coaching job search to help that you do to with friends and family and colleagues, you can get paid for that. And I saw,
Michael Hingson 21:56
what, what a concept,
Catherine Morgan 21:59
it hadn’t occurred to me that that was a legit way to make a living and people would actually pay me for that service.
Michael Hingson 22:06
And so when did you start that?
Catherine Morgan 22:10
So in 2010, I left Deloitte in May. And I started point A to point B transitions, Inc, which is my company. And we have been helping professionals and financial services, professional services and technology, find new opportunities, great jobs, they love and not stop gap positions.
Michael Hingson 22:37
So as our technological infrastructure and environment grows, and so on, how is that really changed the whole process of job searches, looking for jobs, applying for jobs, and so on.
Catherine Morgan 22:54
And to some extent, it’s everything old is new again, because the technology has made it so easy for people to apply for basically anybody to apply for anything, I jokingly call it spray and pray. But to spray and pray is there which means that employers are receiving, you know, tremendous amounts of applications, and may or may not, depending on the size of the organization, may or may not have the people in house to wade through this. So they may outsource it, which is the long way of saying that spray and pray mostly doesn’t work. So it might work. If you’re looking for a similar type of job in a similar industry, that’s when the online application process is efficient. But you need to reach out to organizations, you need to reach out to people you need to get recommended in, you need to set up your profile. So you look magnetic for the type of role that you want. There’s a lot of additional ways that you can source opportunities or be the one that’s chosen. Because you have to keep in mind that depending on the size of the organization, someone is targeting, they may or may not have the responsibility of posting it publicly. So they may if they’re a small organization who could not deal with the quantity of resumes they’ve received by posting a job publicly, they may just reach out to their network and say, Hey, we’re hiring a sales manager, hey, we’re hiring a marketing director, hey, we’re hiring an intern and good people, no good people, and they’ll they’ll fill it that way. So you have to make sure that your top of mind for people so that if opportunities are uncovered, somebody thinks of you and sends it your way.
Michael Hingson 24:56
So in a sense, the process overall really hasn’t changed.
Catherine Morgan 25:03
That’s where I was going with SES, the technology has helped. And but the people who are going who are looking to make bigger changes, who are not just round peg, round hole candidates need to make the extra effort to reach out and find people touch people follow companies interact with companies cold, do cold outreach, those are the people who get good results.
Michael Hingson 25:31
And the advantage of technology is, it makes it easier to reach out, you don’t have to put a stamp on an envelope and send it somewhere. Now you can do an email, but you also have to put the appropriate efforts into it to make sure that what you send will be seen.
Catherine Morgan 25:55
Yes, exactly. You have to make sure that you’re relevant to the person that you’re reaching out to. So it’s not, hey, I have all this experience data. Why should they care? Yes, you’re a leader. Like all of us, we’re overwhelmed. We have a bunch of people reaching out for things. Why should someone care? Why are you the right candidate? Why are you interested? Why is are you a great fit for this position. So you always have to make sure you’re positioning it for why the other person should care, because they’re also busy, and they don’t know you. So you have to, you have to make it seem like you’re worth their time.
Michael Hingson 26:40
Yeah, it’s, again, it’s no different job interviews are sales presentations, by any standard by any definition. And so you have to learn to be the best at selling yourself. Otherwise, you’re going to be left behind. And that’s not a bad thing, because it’s all about you looking at yourself and realizing what you can do. But it also means you have to research who you’re applying to, to make sure that that you are a good fit. And again, that’s not different than it used to be. It’s just that now, there’s so many ways to perhaps make that easier to do if you do it, right.
Catherine Morgan 27:19
Yes, I completely agree with that. But there’s a bunch of people who just heard that and when act sales. So let me let me give you a door in so it sounds a little more doable and a little less scary. The way someone who comes to me and says, I don’t feel comfortable talking about myself, I’m not positioning myself well. And I’ll say, Well, if you don’t do it, nobody’s going to do it. So it’s your job to present yourself as the best candidate, you’re giving them the information, they need to see that you are highly qualified, and a strong candidate. If you do not present them with that information, you are doing them and subsequently you a disservice. Yeah. So if I just say you’re presenting the information about your skills, why you’re excited about the opportunity, why you’re going to hit the ground running, why you’ve done something similar or you can come up to speed quickly. You need to do that so that they have the information they need to make the right decision that you are the right candidate or not.
Michael Hingson 28:39
Right. And I appreciate that. A lot of people Miko IQ sales. The problem is that the sales industry oftentimes hasn’t done the right thing to teach people what sales is all about. Because real salespeople, good salespeople, and I come from a sales background. Real people do all the kinds of preparations that you’re talking about. But also, the better salespeople know that, ultimately, their teachers and advisors and counselors and they look for what the customer if you will, or in this case, the person looking at job applications need and then have to make the decision about how and if they can make a presentation that will work. And it’s also important and I’ve done it on a number of occasions and selling products, you have to look at will my product work? Will my product do what the customer needs because if it won’t, I’ll be doing everyone more of a disservice by trying to convince them to buy something that won’t work. So again, I take a different view of sales and probably a lot of people do but it still is the real right way to do it.
Catherine Morgan 29:56
I completely agree and an unhappy cause Sturmer is burdensome to the organization and a reputation risk.
Michael Hingson 30:04
Yeah. And and people will hear about it if you do that kind of thing no matter who you are. Because even though there’s a lot of technology, and there are a lot of people out there looking for applicants, ultimately, in any given industry, the network is relatively small, and people will hear about it if you don’t do it, right.
Catherine Morgan 30:28
That was my experience, the Chicago trading community is very small. Miss rep, presenting our data on AI, you would have big problems.
Michael Hingson 30:40
I know as a person who happens to be blind, the other factor that we oftentimes see is though, the prejudice that exists on the part of people looking for employees or people to fill jobs, oh, you’re blind, you can’t possibly do that. How are you going to get to work. And today, we still see that kind of thing. But it used to be that it was probably even worse. And I know that oftentimes, I would debate do I say I’m even blind in a cover letter to go with a resume. Because if I didn’t say I was blind, I might get a call back, the odds would be about the same as for anyone else. But if I did say it, I could probably be pretty much guaranteed I wouldn’t even get a response. And there are so many ways to still do that today. And it still happens to a great degree, because the unemployment rate for persons who are employable with disabilities is still in the 65 to 70% range. So we tend not to really be too excited when we hear an unemployment rate of 3.5%. Because we know how hard it is for us, and how few of us actually get hired to, to do a job. And, and so the prejudices are still there. And so then, for me, what i i Come back to as a default is something I learned in a Dale Carnegie sales course, you have to turn that perceived liability into an asset, which if you do it, right also gains you a lot more attraction and a lot more likelihood of visibility with excuse me with the the potential people who are looking to to fill a position. And so for me, in a sales position, what I would say is, hey, look, I sell 24 hours a day to convince people to let me buy a house or fly on an airplane with my guide dog or even go grocery shopping. So do you want to hire somebody who just comes in for a few hours every day and sells? Or do you want to hire somebody who truly understands sales for the science and art that it is, and who sells 24 hours a day as a way of life? And that that actually got me a job interview and hired. And it because it worked? And it’s true. It also separates you from virtually everyone else?
Catherine Morgan 33:11
Yeah, it gets you it makes you memorable, which in some cases is half the battle. How do you distinguish yourself as a piece of paper? Yeah, you know, I’ve had, I’ve had a similar situation with some clients who had Ms. And had summers obvious tremors and walked with a cane. So my suggestion to them was to just answer the question upfront, because what the employer really cared about is can you do your job? Is your your physical, you know, I can see the tremors? Is that going to affect your ability to do your work? And to just answer it flat out? Because that’s what they’re thinking? Like, it’s the elephant in the room. Just talk to it?
Michael Hingson 33:58
Absolutely. And, and for me, the prejudice runs very deep, because the presumption is you’re blind, you just can’t do it. In fact, I went on an interview, and went by bus up to Los Angeles from where I lived at the time, and deliberately went on my own to the interview, because I didn’t want someone driving me there. And the first question, even after all, that was, well, how are you going to get to work? So well, and I got that, right. So the answer is, hey, if I need to move closer, that’s my responsibility. If you hire me, I need to be able to be here. And I recognize that I will make that happen. And I’ve proved or should have been able to prove to you today that I can do it. The problem is that the prejudice does run deep and it’s a big challenge that we we all do face and even now today as a speaker. A lot of times I’ve got I’ve got a story about being in The World Trade Center on September 11, it helps but still, how do I distinguish myself from so many other speakers who are out there that are always looking for probably the same job of why should they hire me? I was very fortunate, about a month ago to read about someone who heard me speak in 2014. At an event in Nevada, the event on safety, preparedness and emergency preparedness and management. And just this January, he wrote an article specifically about that event, talking about how much he remembered and how much he valued. What he heard that day from my presentation. What, what an amazing kind of thing, how often are you going to hear from somebody who heard a speech nine years before and remembers it?
Catherine Morgan 35:54
Oh, my goodness, isn’t that a speaker’s dream, though, to inspire their audience and to, you know, be memorable and make a change like that? That’s amazing.
Michael Hingson 36:06
Absolutely is true. And it was, it was a wonderful article. So I, I now tell people about that when we talk about the possibility of speaking, which is pretty cool.
Catherine Morgan 36:15
Course, it should be part of your packet. Yeah.
Michael Hingson 36:19
So you, you talk about the whole idea today of work and hiring, and, and so on. So the industry in some senses has changed a lot because of technology. But in some senses, the process is still ultimately the same. How do we get people to learn the process when they think that technology is just going to solve all their problems?
Catherine Morgan 36:49
Isn’t that the question you should see the look of horror on my on people’s faces, when I tell them, they should only be spending 20% of their time doing online applications? Because they think that they can sit behind, you know, in the relative piece of their house behind their laptop and get this job search done. And, and maybe, but it’s unlikely. So when I tell them my time allocation on how you should be spending your efforts, the responses is generally Ack.
Michael Hingson 37:23
Yeah. But still, it’s what they have to do.
Catherine Morgan 37:29
If they want to good results, if they want to, you know, have the equivalent of scratch off tickets, maybe they get lucky.
Michael Hingson 37:37
Right? Oh, about different age groups are you are you seeing as we have an aging population and more seniors or more people approaching seniors who want to continue to be in the workforce? How is all of this working for them, as opposed to younger people and in the next generation or later? And their more comfortable with technology? But still, how does it work between different generations?
Catherine Morgan 38:07
That is a juicy question. I joke that, you know, old dogs can learn new tricks and new technology, which sort of breaks the ice a little bit. A lot of my people I work with generally 45 to 62. So we are on the more experienced side of the spectrum. And mostly I have not found a technology barrier for them. You know, pretty much everybody says they should be better with Excel. But other than that, they’re comfortable with with computers, they’re there on them, they they get it. That may not be the perception of younger workers, they may need to go in and prove that or specifically talk to it, because to your point, it is a bias. But it the types of clients who are drawn to my work because of the industries I serve, don’t tend to have that issue. But I recommend that people talk to it if they’re really good with data analysis or if they know any types of coding or you know, whatever software CRM systems anything that they’re mentioned it to just poke poke that balloon right there. Like that’s not in the room anymore. I get that it ageism mostly isn’t. And a lot of times it’s self inflicted, which generally galvanizes a room when I say that.
Michael Hingson 39:43
Tell me more about that though, if you would, please.
Catherine Morgan 39:47
I will. Well, most of the people I work with are white collar professionals, who have a lot of jobs function expertise or industry experience. And I try to tell them that having more experience doesn’t make you less valuable. So, is there ageism in the workplace? Some? If you want to get into Google or Facebook or one of the young sexy tech companies, yeah, maybe it’s a problem. Other companies? No, it’s not. The the real issue when you sort of pull it part is, is it an age issue or a wage issue? Meaning is your 1015 20 years of experience worth 2050 100 grand more to the employer? Now, if a more junior person could adequately perform that job function? It is not. ageism is a money question. And if you were the hiring manager, you would make the same decision. So the trick is to apply for jobs for which your experience is important. Your negotiation skills, your judgment, your years of industry expertise, you’re having watched multiple market cycles there apply for the jobs where you’re not competing against very junior resources, because that’s usually what’s going on and everybody’s it’s ageism, they didn’t pick me. It’s ageism. No, it wasn’t it was a money question. And it’s a junior role. Don’t call it what it is.
Michael Hingson 41:38
Or you have to work to find a way to Well, one of two things justify a higher salary because of your experience, or recognize that you may not get as much money as you would like. But as you said, that’s the the amount of money that the job will pay.
Catherine Morgan 42:02
Yes, and people who switch industries, for example, financial services, and technology tends to be paid better than other industries. So we have a very honest conversation, that should they want to switch industries, they are likely going to have to take a pay cut, once again, not ageism. It’s just what the market value in that industry is.
Michael Hingson 42:28
But do you find that there are though age biases in anywhere in the workforce, I’m not going to hire older people, I want younger people who are more energetic, who are going to stay longer, or whatever the case happens to be?
Catherine Morgan 42:44
Sure there are, then you don’t work for that company. It’s, you know, how the pendulum swings from one side to the other. That was certainly the case, you know, several years ago, but we have an aging population, just the demographics of the population, the younger generations are not going to be able to fill in all the jobs, they’re going to need to keep the workers in there longer. And the value that a more experienced worker can bring some times as the ability to participate in multiple job functions, is, you know, add value to this team, this team and this team and be good with it can be a very smart decision for employers. And I think that savvy employers are really starting to get that.
Michael Hingson 43:40
And savvy employees are starting to get that they need to make that point.
Catherine Morgan 43:47
Exactly. I joke because that’s who I am, that you need to be applying for positions where the gray hair of experience is valuable.
Michael Hingson 43:58
Right. And that’s really, ultimately it. The fact of the matter is that there’s a lot of value in experience. But you have to make the case, just like with anything else, like as I talked about the issue of turning perceived liabilities into assets. And when you’re dealing like with disabilities, one of the facts that can be very relevant. And again, you have to understand whatever environment you’re applying for, but the one of the facts that could be very relevant is I know that the unemployment rate among employable blind people is in the 65 to 70% range. The fact of the matter is, if you are willing to give me a job, and you hire me, I’m going to be much more apt to not want to leave and jump ship like younger people often do because they just think they’re getting a better opportunity. I’m going to stay somewhere that well. comes me and demonstrates that they value me for who I am, even though I happen to be someone who is blind, and there are actually a number of studies and a lot of statistics that show that to be true.
Catherine Morgan 45:13
Well, turnover is extremely expensive for companies. So making that point that I will be your dedicated, committed employee, if you are committed and dedicated to me, I think that’s a great point to make.
Michael Hingson 45:28
It is, again, one of those things where it takes savviness on both sides. And some employers, as you say, do get it. And I think more and more people will perceive that over time. But I think also, for example, employees with disabilities need to be the ones to make that point. And to create that conversation.
Catherine Morgan 45:53
Yes, you need to have your talking points, practiced. Because, yeah, we were not used to having those conversations. Like I honestly think, Michael, that you are the first blind person that I’ve that I know, I know, people who have, you know, lost major portions of their eyesight. And I’m actually working with a client who’s sort of navigating through that now. But I don’t know anybody who was born, born blind.
Michael Hingson 46:23
So for you, well, well, in the the issue is that even if you have some eyesight, if you’re low vision, then I use that as opposed to what most people use visually impaired, because I don’t regard myself as impaired and I don’t want to be equated to eyesight. And visually, I’m not different, because I just happened to be blind. So low vision or blind, it’s like deaf or hard of hearing, as opposed to deaf and hearing impaired, Hard of Hearing is a much more appropriate term that’s become accepted. And we haven’t done that yet, with eyesight, but low vision, people will oftentimes find if they look at it, that if they learn some of the techniques that totally blind people use, and if they accept their low vision, nature, and use that as an advantage, they can be very valuable employees wherever they go.
Catherine Morgan 47:18
I totally agree. And I’m working with a woman in this situation right now. And she’s fully functional, nobody would know anything different, as long as she’s home with her setup. You know, the right kind of monitors the right kind of kind of things, her anxiety is if she has to go back into an office environment, she’s not going to have the equipment that she needs to succeed. And that’s, you know, a valid question. But remote working is happening available more and more. And companies, you know, may be willing to make, you know, accommodations, more and more, I keep trying to tell her that it’s possibly less of an issue than she thinks, but we’ll work on our talking points, and we’ll make sure that she’s comfortable and presenting herself and I just don’t think it’s gonna end up being a problem for her.
Michael Hingson 48:08
Well, it doesn’t need to be if even if she wants to go or if she’s willing to go back into an office environment and needs certain kinds of equipment. The reality is, there are a lot of ways to get that in one state rehabilitation agencies are tasked with making people employable, and can help purchase equipment to, and I think philosophically even more important, whether it always can be used is why should the cost of business be any different conceptually for bringing a person with low vision into the employment environment? Why should that cost of business be any less or any different than what you do for sighted people by giving them computer monitors, computers, coffee machines, electric lights, so they can see how to walk around? The fact of the matter is that you know, in reality, so a person needs a magnifier or closed circuit, television type device.
Catherine Morgan 49:10
It’s too new for her. It’s still very raw. But should she’ll be fine?
Michael Hingson 49:15
Yeah, but all of that is true, but there are places and ways to get the funding. The fact is that under the Americans with Disabilities Act, it is appropriate to explore with companies providing alternatives to what most workers use, and it should be part of the cost of doing business. We never view it that way, though. But that’s a growth area for employers to work on to.
Catherine Morgan 49:42
I’m hoping that that’s changing. I’m hoping that we’re going to augment what is quote unquote normal and you know, with neuro diversity and people with disabilities, you know, I It’s my hope.
Michael Hingson 50:01
Yeah, it’s, it is a process. And it’s new for her because she’s not used to operating in a different environment or with different tools and with a different mindset. But that is still now part of her life. And here’s the other part. And I don’t know anything about what causes her eye condition. But she may lose the rest of that eyesight. And then she’s going to have to learn all over again, which is another reason that I talk about the fact that this is the time, people should learn the techniques of what blind people use, because the odds are, if she started to lose eyesight, she’s gonna lose the rest of it. And then you go through another psychological crisis again, unless you deal with it sooner rather than later.
Catherine Morgan 50:46
Maybe it maybe at some point, I can ask you to give some of your hard won knowledge to her. She’s a very nice woman.
Michael Hingson 50:53
Sure, we can we can talk about that without doing it on the podcast. So nobody else needs to hear. But we could, we could certainly do that. But the reality is that, that eyesight or lack of eyesight isn’t the problem. On either side, its attitude. It’s philosophy, it’s our perceptions, and misconceptions that create most of the problems. I agree, which is always a different issue. So you know, we talk about working and so on. And this reminds me of a situation just recently, I did another podcast interview with someone. And we were talking about work. And specifically, we were talking about work in the United States, as opposed to work in other countries, where in other countries, this person said, it would appear that people aren’t so focused on just working, that they, they appreciate relaxation, they appreciate time away from work. And in the United States, it’s all about just working and earning money. And that has to be an extremely stressful thing.
Catherine Morgan 52:10
It is an extremely stressful thing. And perhaps you’re referring to Europe, when you’re talking about well, among
Michael Hingson 52:17
other places. Yeah, it was she happened to be referring to Europe, she actually originally lived in the Soviet Union. And another observation she make made is that when the Soviet Union fell, people were presented with a crisis that now they had to make choices for themselves, whereas within the Soviet Union, they didn’t have the opportunity to choose anything for themselves, which created another crisis. But she was observing with Europe and other been a number of other places, but primarily, I think she was referring to Europe.
Catherine Morgan 52:48
Yeah, well, this American hard work ethic, I think, has come back to bite us. Hard work is good. I am pro hard work I. But the badge of busyness or overworking added as a status symbol is a big problem right now, in the United States, as witnessed the rise of just stress, anxiety, depression, autoimmune disease is just, it’s not working for us anymore. We need to respect the fact that we are humans, and we need to recharge. We’re not just people who work we have a personal lives and family and hobbies and other things that we should do. I just this, we have a big problem here and we need to reorient how we think about the place work has in our lives. One survey I saw said 65% of people felt that the pandemic meaning 2020 and 2021 made them stop and rethink the place that work has in their lives. And going forward. A lot of people are recreating something different. They’re willing to work, they want to work, but they also want to see their kids. They also want to spend time with their partner. They also want to be able to cook dinner and workout.
Michael Hingson 54:24
So you think we’ll see that pendulum kind of switch a little bit?
Catherine Morgan 54:29
I think we have I think that’s a big part of what caused the Great resignation and the great reshuffling in 2022.
Michael Hingson 54:35
How about employers? Are they recognizing the value of doing that? I mean, like as I understand it, in France, for example, in August, people basically are supposed to take the month off and in other countries over there, do these these kinds of things. Are we going to get to the point where we’ll more value the idea of as employers having people be able to take more time off, or I think this is something that we’re starting to see a little bit, being able to work more remotely, which gives us some of that opportunity.
Catherine Morgan 55:13
Yes, smart remote working as opposed to never fully disconnecting, we need to make a distinction between the two of those, because I’m, I’m all about remote work. But what that can mean is that you feel like you’re on 24/7. So if you’re replying to emails at 2am, this remote word thing isn’t working in your favor. But your point was around taking time off. And I think employers who want people to stay and to not have to replace and retrain workers will need to adopt that to keep their highest performers, because the highest performers can go anywhere. And they’re going to stay at organizations that support, you know, a more robust work life balance.
Michael Hingson 56:08
Do you think in our environment, there is room for both sides, employers and employees to recognize that, although one needs to earn a living money, isn’t everything and there are other qualities such as working remotely or having more time off? Or having ways for people to relax? Do you think that that there is room for us to recognize that that kind of thing is relevant to and it isn’t all just about money?
Catherine Morgan 56:43
Well, how about if I was able to try, unplugging, rejuvenating, resting, recreating to money, meaning if we don’t have time and white space, to clear our brain? Great ideas don’t come creative innovation doesn’t come. Now, what makes companies money these days is innovative ideas. Well, if people are just on the hamster, wheel, Hamster, Hamster, Hamster, treadmill, treadmill, treadmill, they are not getting their best ideas. They’re not thinking about different ways to change processes to leverage technology to scale to come up with the next iPhone or whatever. So I think if we can somehow slip the idea into C, C, the C suite, that if you let your employees rest in play, they’re going to be more productive and come up with more innovative and creative ideas. Maybe we make it work.
Michael Hingson 57:52
Do you think we’re seeing some of that or that we will see some or more of that.
Catherine Morgan 57:58
We’re seeing it and lip service for sure. You’re starting to see website copy that talks about wanting employees to have work life balance. I have a former client who’s working at an at an ad agency, which is that’s an industry that’s notorious for beating up their people. And she says that her agency is insists that employees keep to a 40 Max 45 hour week. And if they report too much time, they ask the employee what kind of help they need to get the workload back to something manageable that can be completed in a reasonable work, then she almost fell off her chair.
Michael Hingson 58:42
Wow. That’s that is pretty unusual. But refreshing, isn’t it?
Catherine Morgan 58:47
Oh, that made that lighter future forward. Wouldn’t that be great,
Michael Hingson 58:52
wouldn’t it though? How about retirement? We’ve got a lot of places a mandatory retirement age at 65. And I don’t know whether it’s as mandatory as it used to be but should should everybody, everyone retire? Or how about that to go?
Catherine Morgan 59:14
Well, I think like everything one size doesn’t fit all. So the people who are excited about their retirement and are planning to do whatever they’re planning to do should go do that. But retirement for a lot of people is not a great idea. Example, somebody whose identity is very much tied to their work and their position or their title or their you know, if you’re a doctor, if you’re a lawyer, you’re known as Dr. So and so you’re known as so and so the lawyer. If you no longer have that in your life, you can feel untethered and lose your identity and Don’t be bored out of your mind, or sink into clinical depression fairly quickly. So if you love your work, and you are energized by it, and it’s a big chunk of your identity, a traditional retirement can, can be adverse for you like, I don’t recommend it. But you know, there may be a balance to be struck once again, maybe you don’t want to be working full time. My cousin was a doctor, a pediatrician, her whole career. And now she’s working two, two and a half days a week. And that’s the nice balance that she wanted to strike. But she’s got to be in her mid 60s. So you know, that’s what she wanted to do. My grandmother sold real estate until she was 87. She said it kept her young and out of doctors offices, all her friends were rich and didn’t have to work. And she said, they spent all their time going to doctors. So there’s something to be said, you know, if you’re that type of person, and you like what you’re doing, you might want to keep doing it.
Michael Hingson 1:01:05
Of course, there is the other side of it, which is maybe some people should retire for one reason or another.
Catherine Morgan 1:01:11
Absolutely. Like I am not. I don’t think there’s one prescription that’s going to work for everybody. I have a couple friends who are like I’m never retiring and another couple of friends who are really looking forward to it. And they have, you know, specific plans for travel or grandchildren or mentoring or teaching or, you know, whatever. It’s great, but I don’t I don’t think we can prescribe. Okay, you’re 65 your value in the marketplace just ran out? No, you’re likely it didn’t. Now someone who has a physical job if they’re lifting heavy cabinets and stuff, yeah, you might have to adjust and maybe be the project manager or the foreman or something. Those aren’t generally people I work with. But you know, if there’s physical constraints, that’s a little different conversation, but as a sprain renters, I have had a lot of people who stayed at their company for 20 years, were eligible for their pension rolled out and call me six weeks later saying, Oh, my God, I’m so bored helped me get a job.
Michael Hingson 1:02:17
I have a nephew who worked for Kaiser Permanente for oh my gosh, oh, well, more than 30 years and retired in 2021, or 2020. stayed away for most of the year and decided that he was bored and went back to work. We didn’t think it would last and it didn’t he really he just retired again at the end of 2022. But he his situation is that he had to drive like 4550 miles to work every day, up over Cajon Pass and come down and the driving is horrible. And now especially after a pandemic, it’s even worse, because he’ll take two hours sometimes to get to work each day. So he’s decided that now it’s pretty good. And he went back to work because they asked him to come back. And they’d like him to come back again. And he said Not unless I can do it here. Yeah, well, not only remote, but there is a facility. There isn’t a Kaiser hospital and he was administrator of portable hospital. But he could do most all of his work from the the Kaiser clinic here in Victorville. Or he could do it remotely. You’re right.
Catherine Morgan 1:03:32
Okay, so that’s just, let’s be smart about this. Would you rather have somebody who’s really good at their job that you trust? Who can you know, do it? I don’t know, companies are going to have to get a little smarter about who really needs to be in the office who wants to be in the office, because some people are natural extroverts, and they’re dying to go back to work. And then there’s, there’s some people like me, who are super happy to be working remotely, and always have been.
Michael Hingson 1:04:03
I’m used to remote to a large degree. So it doesn’t, it doesn’t bother me and getting to do the podcast is great to be able to do remotely. So I’m, I’m comfy with that. Well, we have to talk about the fact that you have a book and it is now out. And tell us about that, please.
Catherine Morgan 1:04:21
Well, my book is called this isn’t working, evolving the way we work to decrease stress, anxiety and depression. So the question is, how do you make a book that has the words stress, anxiety and depression and the subtitle not make people run for the door going ACC? So how do you make where’s the door and how do you make it, you know, friendly, helpful, engaging, and I got very lucky because my designer did a tremendous job. And it’s, it’s funny, people look at the title and just burst out like Laughing. So that was that’s one way in. The other way in is my signature, empathy, snark and storytelling, which is what people people say that the book is just like having a conversation with me. So if you liked this conversation, you’ll probably like the jokes.
Michael Hingson 1:05:20
Nothing wrong with snark. Little snark doesn’t doesn’t hurt a bit? Well, you got some news about your book today.
Catherine Morgan 1:05:31
I did it. My little book was released. It’s a small book with a big mission is my my goal for this book. And it is the number one new release on Amazon in the work related health category. So I’m very pleased to share that.
Michael Hingson 1:05:51
Well, congratulations. That is definitely exciting. And if people want to reach out to you, or get your book or just talk to you and learn more about what you do, and maybe seek assistance, or whatever, how do they do that? The best
Catherine Morgan 1:06:09
way to find me and interact with me is on LinkedIn. So I’ve actively posting there and reach out connect, follow me. And I’d love to talk about what’s going on with your work situation and how we can make it better because with the great resignation, quiet quitting, the great reshuffling and the tech layoffs of 2023, clearly what we’re doing is not working. And we have some ways to go to improve this,
Michael Hingson 1:06:38
you could write a book and that’ll help to Hmm. Do you have a website that people can go to?
Catherine Morgan 1:06:46
Sure, it’s a little long though. PointAtoPointBTransitions.com.
Michael Hingson 1:06:48
Point A to Point B, the number two or to
Catherine Morgan 1:06:56
point point A to point B
Michael Hingson 1:06:59
transitions.com.com. That’s easy to remember.
Catherine Morgan 1:07:05
It is I tried it out in grocery lines and stuff before I registered for the URL. It’s long, but people are like, Oh, point A to point B, people always talk about getting from point A to point B and
Michael Hingson 1:07:15
it’s to transition
Catherine Morgan 1:07:18
transitions, and they’re like, Okay, so it’s long to type it out because I’m dyslexic. But everybody remembers said,
Michael Hingson 1:07:26
yeah, it’s easy to remember. And of course.com. We do have some clue about that. So that works out well. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for being here and talking with us. And hopefully giving people some great ideas. If you’re looking for jobs or looking to hire or just giving you something to think about. We’re really grateful that you were listening to us today. I’d love to hear your thoughts about what we talked about and get your opinion. So please feel free to email me email addresses real easy. It’s Michaelhi at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. And for those who don’t know, accessibe is a company in Israel that makes products to help make websites much more inclusive for persons with disability. So Catherine, we’ll have to check out your website, see how accessible it is?
Catherine Morgan 1:08:23
You’re gonna tell me it needs to rework I’m guessing, but I’d love to hear about it.
Michael Hingson 1:08:28
Well, we could talk about that it’s really not expensive with accessibe to do anyway. But you can also reach out to me through our podcast page, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And hingson is spelled H i n g s o n, we would really appreciate and I know Catherine would appreciate you giving us a five star rating and talking about this and talking about her book. So I hope that you will all go out and buy it and read it and that it will inspire you. But again, Catherine, I really appreciate you being here today and hope that you will come back and tell us more as time goes on because I’m sure that the world is going to change and we need to continue to hear from you about new trends and new ideas and this whole process.
Catherine Morgan 1:09:15
Thank you so much, Michael. It’s been a joy talking to you today.
Michael Hingson 1:09:24
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.