Episode 122 – Unstoppable Reverent and Adaptive Sports Innovator with Ross W. Lilley
Ross W. Lilley grew up in New Jersey. He graduated from New York University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics. Later he received his Masteries in Divinity from Andover Newton Theological School. He moved to Massachusetts to accept the Senior minister role at South Acton Congregational Church for nearly 20 years.
However, he was always feeling a different call. Ross grew up with an interest in persons with disabilities and always felt and saw around him the lack of understand and discrimination these people experienced. When he graduated high school in New Jersey he took up the sport of windsurfing. While serving in his ministerial role, Ross began think about and eventually forming AdccesSport America, a company to help teach windsurfing and other sports to persons with disability. When his son was born with a disability Ross felt that he was destoned to help his son and others through his dream.
In 2001 Ross left the church and officially took on the full-time position of leading his company. Now, he works with thousands of persons with disability teaching them a number of sports and showing them that no matter their disability they can do more than they thought. He and his staff teaches soccer, tennis, baseball, basketball and, of course, windsurfing as well as other sports.
Ross’ story is much more than an inspirational one. You will see how he is even developing new technologies that he hopes will greatly assist even more persons whose mobility skills are seemingly limited. You will, I think, love what Ross is doing. I hope what you hear on this episode will show you that all of us are more unstoppable than we think especially when we have a team to help.
About the Guest:
Rev. Ross W. Lilley grew up in Tenafly, New Jersey, graduating from high school in 1975. That same year, he began windsurfing on the Jersey shore. He graduated from New York University with a Bachelor of Arts in Economics in 1978 and Masters in Divinity from Andover Newton Theological School in 1983.
He was the Senior Minister of South Acton Congregational Church for close to 20 years. In that time the seeds for founding AccesSportAmerica began to grow. In 1983, Ross began developing windsurf adaptations to make that sport more accessible. The endeavor to adapt the sport was part of a greater interest in creating places and activities to overcome disparity and discrimination in the disabled community.
Since that time Ross has been adapting and teaching sports and training for people with disabilities. In 1986 the Lilley’s son Joshua was born with cerebral palsy and resulting spastic quadriplegia. Although Joshua uses an electric wheelchair and can walk with assistance, Josh and Ross began windsurfing together when Josh was four years old. Eventually the two sailed in their own windsurf marathons. Because of their efforts, the Lilleys have appeared in over twenty publications and televised programs including Good Morning America, Inside Edition, The Boston Globe, The Boston Herald and American Windsurfer
Ross and his family have received several awards including being a two time recipient of the Heroes Among Us Award from the Boston Celtics, honoring “people who have made an overwhelming impact on the lives of others…” and presented to individuals who, “…through their unique commitment and humanitarian spirit, have made exceptional and lasting contributions to our community”.
Ross is known for creating adaptations and game systems to truly include all people in sport and training. Most recently the TheraTrek, gait training system was patented after more than a decade of research and development.
Rev. Ross Lilley lives in Acton, MA with his wife Jean and their son Joshua. Their daughter, Hanna, lives in Maui but still works camps and runs clinics with Ross and AccesSportAmerica.
Social Media Links:
Our website is www.goaccess.org
Instagram is AccesSport
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson 01:16
Hi there once again, it is time for another episode of unstoppable mindset today, we get to meet Ross Lilley, we’re actually Reverend Ross, Lilley Ross has got a story to tell. He is not a person directly as I recall with a disability, but he has a son who is and he has had a long time interest in that. And there’s a lot more to his story than that. And I’m not going to give it away. So Ross, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you?
Ross Lilley 01:49
Thank you, Mike. Oh, great. Thank you. We are in our mid we got here just in time.
Michael Hingson 01:56
Right. And I was just gonna say, if people haven’t figured it out by now we record these podcasts. And sometimes there’s a little bit of a delay before they get up just because we do have some backlogs. And in Ross’s case, we are taping or taping my gosh, you can tell how old I am. We are recording this episode on January 23 2023. And for us the temperature got down to 26 degrees here in Victorville and you have a snowstorm.
Ross Lilley 02:25
Oh my, wow. Yeah. I work with people that are all younger than me, pretty much. So I say tape all the time. We put out a lot of videos for our training sessions. And they’re all wondering what to tape is.
Michael Hingson 02:41
I remember when we lived in New Jersey and I worked in New York at the World Trade Center. We often and saw among other things, one or wolf on I think it was channel two in New York. And he always said let’s go to the videotape. Well, they weren’t videotaping back by that time. Well, let’s let’s learn a little bit about you tell me about you kind of growing up and just sort of how things got started and all that.
Ross Lilley 03:07
Sure. I I grew up in New Jersey, and I remember Warner well. Yeah, I’m, I’m old too now. But like, let me see I was a if we’re going back that far. I I always had an interest in in inclusion, I guess I would say and I used to coach and and create things where people could get involved a lot more a lot of sports stuff. I remember even growing up and always was kind of the one who was like, let’s get a game going and getting people going and and so one of the sports I really loved was windsurfing. I got to do that when I was high school and I you know it’s first paycheck I ever got actually was to buy a wind surfer and anyways fast forward a little bit I went to for for no good reason I went to seminary to become a minister
Michael Hingson 04:06
and there must have been a reason yeah there is you
Ross Lilley 04:09
when you when you go to seminary they all everybody you sit with your classmates in a circle and they all talk about their call the so called call and and in some of these stories go on and on and on and people tugging and God pulling and all that kind of stuff. And my was just, it just sort of hit me that I probably should go to everybody told me I’d be a good minister and I should go and I just somehow said okay, I gave into this process, but there was no no hit on the head kind of experience like a lot of these other folks. But anyways, my mentors all taught me that good, good religion, like good life was inclusive, and that if everybody couldn’t come it wasn’t maybe worth taking the ride.
Michael Hingson 04:54
Since you started down that road of the whole concept of inclusion. Well
Ross Lilley 05:00
I think it was just something in me and then I, in a resonated when when I had these mentors who were similarly minded, like minded and especially, you know when I could make it so some of the whole market ministry it seemed like I was in the right place. And when so ministry was going that way in at the same time, I was windsurfing, and that was kind of at odds with what I believe because it’s a pretty exclusive sport. And so I, I devoted all my spare time to try and make the sport of windsurfing accessible to people of all abilities. You look like have something to say, no, no. Okay. So so I started just going up to people on the beach and saying, You look like I have a disability, you want to go windsurfing, which is really nice. No, no, no under a slapped me, but there you go, they should have. So I used to take people with kind of just will say light ambulation issues out windsurfing and figure out ways to make it more accessible. And even, I made some adaptations, which it turned out I was pretty good at and then I was my son was born in 1986 with cerebral palsy, and spastic quadriplegia tetraplegia. And he became kind of a you know, that’s where the rubber would hit the road, I guess is if, if I really believe this about inclusion, I would make a choice there i My wife and I made a choice that everything that we would do, we were going to believe that he could do as well. All the things that we thought were good in our lives, we’re going to make a choice that we’re going to ram it down his throat that these things were going to be good for him too. So So for good or for bad. He was born into the right or wrong fam family and he became this test pilot for a lot of the things we do. And anyways, we started to to do wind surf marathons. And I found that based on the fact that I found that this sport really excited him to stand where he couldn’t stand in a standard for more than 10 minutes, he could stand leaning against me. And we could go for really long distances. And some of these wind surf marathons we did he was seven, eight years old. And we’re going a mile out into Cape Cod Bay and back. You know, we did one which was memorable over three hours was 10 Miles net that caught the attention of like the globe and Good Morning America and things like this. And that’s how we started our program and proper.
Michael Hingson 07:39
So you, you talk about inclusion. And my note here, are you using the word diversity? How come?
Ross Lilley 07:49
How come I go again?
Michael Hingson 07:52
You call it inclusion? And I don’t hear you using the word diversity. Why inclusion and not diversity?
Ross Lilley 08:00
Oh, gosh. I guess they’re pretty similar to me. Is there? I don’t know if there’s a huge difference in my mind.
Michael Hingson 08:09
Well, there shouldn’t be. Yeah, but typically, diversity doesn’t include disabilities in the discussion, which is why I react well to inclusion because some of us who talk about it, don’t let people ever get by with saying, Well, we’re in. We’re inclusive, but we don’t deal with disabilities yet. Well, then you’re not inclusive. You can’t the word just diversity has been warped, it seems to me and I’ve said that a number of times on the podcast. So I love it when you are using the word inclusion and inclusive because that’s really what it should be about and diversity should be as well, but it’s not very rarely do you ever hear disabilities is included in that?
Ross Lilley 08:55
I strongly agree. Yeah, in our program, we have a lot of the when we’re going for grants, a lot of people are talking about diversity and how diverse we are. And it and when they when they want that to go along racial lines or whatever I’m I’m always surprised that like we’re you know, we’re sort of inclusive all it just doesn’t occur to me that that that would be our main criteria compared to how we’re including so many people have so many abilities. So yeah, I yeah, I always think about inclusion. It’s funny.
Michael Hingson 09:33
So how did you end up in Massachusetts from New Jersey although it’s not that far of a ride it is still another state and it’s a little ways away?
Ross Lilley 09:45
Wow, it’s funny I figured my story so boring. I’m I was like I got I got out of college. And I I wanted to be a musician. Although my degree was in economics in mind. or music. And my brother was selling stereos up in Boston. And I came up here just to get a job. And that’s how I got up here. And I thought I’d also find it and I thought there was a pretty good musical community up in Boston, I thought I’d get into that. I was a I studied for 10 years with the principal percussionist in the New York Philharmonic, and I thought I could make a go of it as a drummer as a jazz drummer, but I was wrong. Work out on now.
Michael Hingson 10:33
Well, then you ended up in the ministry along the way. Yeah. I guess, actually going into the ministry.
Ross Lilley 10:39
Yeah, we I was, I guess that back to that story there. The when I was selling stereos, and when dreaming about music people, the people who said, everybody knows you should be a minister, but you Ross were people who were also in ministry. And that was they were great to steer me into it. It was it was good idea.
Michael Hingson 11:02
So are you at a church now?
Ross Lilley 11:05
No, I, I left in 2001. To do this full time. Before the pandemic, we had 2000 People coming to the program, each year to do adaptive sport and training. And even before that, when we were you know, 400 is, it was pretty much a full time job while I’m trying to, you know, be at a church as well. So I had to make a choice, that church, church life is a good one, but it’s tough. And when I was at a great church, but it’s, it’s tough. And you know, if you do it, some people do it. So they’re, they taken a professional approach more professional than I would take in the strict sense of the world. So they could, they could put it aside at night and, and, you know, kind of decompress and be away from the church. I couldn’t I took everything in and and felt it for like everybody, and it just kind of wears on you after a while.
Michael Hingson 11:59
Yeah. Well, and you’ve kind of gone in a different direction and do sort of the same thing. But you’re applying all of it to sports, adaptive sports and disabilities, and so on. So how do you do take your son windsurfing? How does all that work?
Ross Lilley 12:16
Well, now he’s is, is 36, and is a pretty big guy. So what I used to do, where I could just pick up with one hand doesn’t necessarily work. So when we go in serve now, I’ll use a standard or a railing standard, and things like that on the board. And I might have someone on a board with me, we have lots of different rigs that we’ve created. And, you know, well, my focus won’t be necessarily on on the distances we did before, but more of him being able to hold a sail on his own, with me just holding the mass to the sail and things like that. So it’s
Michael Hingson 12:52
once again, the same you’re on the same board. Yeah.
Ross Lilley 12:55
Right. If, if you and I were to go I windsurfing I would put you on a similar board with to sales, you could be standard or seated to get comfortable with the sale, and I could be in front of you on a second sale. And I could help control your sale. And then as you as you got better, I would go to less stable boards, and you would focus on you know, you could then focus on balance as you had mastered your sales technique. Right?
Michael Hingson 13:25
The whole idea is that you have boards, they have sales, and that’s how you move, right?
Ross Lilley 13:31
Faster. In all of our sports, anything we do. The general rule is the faster you move, the more stable you are, when you get going. When you’re stable, then you can do a lot more if you’re just sitting there getting ready to go. It’s pretty wobbly.
Michael Hingson 13:45
You know, I bet sort of like the whole well, a little different sort of like the whole concept of a gyroscope when you spin it fast. It keeps you stable.
Ross Lilley 13:54
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I like that.
Michael Hingson 13:58
Well, that’s that’s pretty cool. So you are you’re able to do it well. And so do you do you still do a lot of wind surfing with him?
Ross Lilley 14:09
I do more wind surfing with our it’s funny you would think I would do a lot but I do more teaching have other folks in our program. Is he doing? So again? What does he do? Josh? On those days, he might come to beach and help us out or might go to a program. But Josh does a lot in your sports in the summer. The way we operate as a sports in the summer are designed for you or your family member to see themselves as athletes as viable athletes, and then to use that as an incentive to train for higher function. And the sports in the summer we have or or windsurfing and Hawaiian Hawaiian outrigger canoeing, stand up paddling, kayaking, and we also have traditional sports like tennis and and soccer and In football that we also apply these inclusive game systems to. And Josh, more times than not, if Josh is at our site and working, Josh will be a part of a crew in an outrigger canoe. He has a fairly functional right hand. So we have all sorts of adaptations where we might, you know, use a Ace wrap to keep his left hand on his bent paddle or something like that. You get a sense of two hands going. But he’ll, if he comes down, he’s usually paddling more than anything now.
Michael Hingson 15:34
Does he work? Does he have a job? Or is the program kind of what he does? It’s kind of a day
Ross Lilley 15:39
program. But they have program. He lives with us though. And yeah, and well, no.
Michael Hingson 15:46
Does your wife wins? Does your wife win serve?
Ross Lilley 15:50
She did. And she doesn’t really now. She, we do a sports camp in Florida every year and she comes out and and comes out and help and she’s actually pretty skilled at it. Yeah.
Michael Hingson 16:04
That’s pretty cool. Maybe she, what does she What does she do? Oh, go ahead.
Ross Lilley 16:08
Where does she she’s, she actually works with us right now. She’s, she’s an interior designer. And, but she left that to work for us. And we also it takes, it takes a lot to you know, raise a kid with a disability and yeah, and to keep me going. I know which side my bread is buttered on.
Michael Hingson 16:34
Good move on your part. Yeah,
Ross Lilley 16:37
she does a lot that she helps teach with us. And she helps train with us as well whenever she can.
Michael Hingson 16:42
We were a two disabilities family. My wife was a chair and a chair her whole life was a T three para, but she passed away in November. So now it is me and a dog and a cat. And, you know, it’s it’s fun. I miss her and and so on. But at the same time, we we do have a lot of fun. And the dog and the cat keep me honest.
Ross Lilley 17:10
Wow, it’s still fresh. That is every day and I’m sure for the rest of your life. Right?
Michael Hingson 17:15
Oh, we’ll be we were 15 days shy of being married for two years. Oh, my. Yeah. So it is. It is one of those things, it will be with us. But as I tell people, the Spirit just goes faster than the body sometimes. And that’s what happened here.
Ross Lilley 17:30
The spirit goes faster than the body. Yeah, the
Michael Hingson 17:33
spirit moves faster.
Ross Lilley 17:35
Oh, I wish I wish I was preaching now I would use this. Well, there’s some good explication of it for me. Wow.
Michael Hingson 17:43
There you go. That’s terrific. Well, we we, we function we continue. But tell me, do you do sports in the winter as well? Or what do you do in the winter.
Ross Lilley 17:53
So today we have a special. So we’re good at adaptations and inventions. And we’ve discovered a lot of our athletes who are training more than anything wanted to could walk on a treadmill with assistance. And so we’ve invented a device, it’s a it’s a gait training device that will probably sell for like $5,000. And we have a gym when which we specialize in doing gait training with people. So we do a lot of that. And we also go to schools and we train people in Boston public schools and some other schools. And we do a it’s a sport based program. And it’s also one that we can do online. So and we do tennis, we do tennis and cycling when the weather it’s good for cycling, but tennis all year as well.
Michael Hingson 18:43
Yep, cycling, probably not right now.
Ross Lilley 18:46
Well, if it’s above 45 degrees, we go out. Well, yeah, but not today.
Michael Hingson 18:52
Not today. That’s what I mean. The snow, the snow falling off. And so as a result, not a good time, but yeah, I hear you. So do you have any distinctions or differences regarding kinds of disabilities? Or do you care and or as a disability as a disability as far as it goes?
Ross Lilley 19:15
It certainly is we would take we’ll take anyone of any ability disability from ages like five up to 100. And if we can accommodate them, we’ll create something so we can so we build arm braces, airplane braces, sort of for people with limb differences. We’ve created a lot of seating particular for particular people to do any of our sports, a lot of stuff. And our you know our intent is to is to include anybody, especially people who have no other place where they can, where they can participate in these kinds of sports.
Michael Hingson 19:52
So that probably gets to be I won’t say a challenge, because it is but but it does get to be a An issue that you get to be able to deal with people with neurodivergent issues as well. So you can deal with autistic or, or people who have Down Syndrome and so on. And you’re just as welcoming to do that as, as you do people with physical disabilities, like you’re talking about.
Ross Lilley 20:15
Exactly, yeah. Well, and the variety really makes it interesting. And that we love that challenge, especially if, if you know, everybody’s different in their own way. And so no rule, no generalizations apply. And if we don’t expect something miraculous to happen, a session, we’re, we’re missing the point. You know, every every session, we find something that’s different in every session, we find something where people surprise us.
Michael Hingson 20:44
So I assume things sort of dropped off a little bit when the pandemic hit.
Ross Lilley 20:48
Big time. Yeah, well, we, we never stopped, we created an online program for our year round program, year round athletes and for school program. And that was, that was kind of cool. Because we made this unique system, where we have six variations of high intensity interval training exercises. And it was like in the can ready to go. And and we put it right in within a week of the pandemic and the onset of that and people being in shutdown. We had that online and going with people.
Michael Hingson 21:22
It’s really cool. how that worked out quite well. We’re
Ross Lilley 21:25
using it now. It’s still we have over close to 80 exercises with these progressions, and then we we put together combinations, the exercises and put it live for a lot of our classes. And I
Michael Hingson 21:37
for for adults as well. Do you find that people who participate in the summer, continue to stay with the program and will work in the winter or? Yes, same same clients and so on? Right, which is cool. How many people are part of the program now?
Ross Lilley 21:57
Well, last summer, I think we had, again, our high point was about 2000. Now we’re about 1200, I think. And so we you know, in the summer, we have a camp for we’re including kids into a camp of, of junior high aged kids. And then we have a program with the Flutie foundation for kids on the autism spectrum. And then we have our own site, where we have anybody in any any one who wants to come out. So there’s a bunch of teams on several sites in the summer. And then from those, they participate in our year round programs. Let me see, probably about half participate in year round programs. We have a soccer and conditioning program as wellness in in a winter.
Michael Hingson 22:39
Boys, girls, men, women, everyone. Yeah, which is so cool. Oh, how do you do soccer? How does that work?
Ross Lilley 22:48
Let me see when we have when, let me see for we let me we created these these game systems where everybody is vital to the system. And you have anybody have any ability has to meet certain requirements of in the game for people to go on. So if you know lice would say if you score and then you can’t score again until the rest of our team scores or for our team to fray our points to count everybody on a team has to at least have an assist or a block. So there’s all these and then there’s certain goals that they shoot at, there’s some that are easier to get than others. So there’s there’s all these accommodations we make depending on who’s playing so that everybody can be vital to their team and everybody’s working towards that. And it’s designed so everybody have every ability is challenged to their utmost as well.
Michael Hingson 23:48
May not be using the right word. But soccer is sort of a ferocious or certainly a hard hitting fast sport. And in general, how does that work when you’re dealing with people with disabilities and a lot of different skill sets and so on? Do they do the people still tend to play as ferociously as they can?
Ross Lilley 24:11
They do and they don’t. So there’s, there’s things we have an inappropriate challenge rule where we try to put like abilities against each other. And, you know, the people that the best so called Able bodied players are working really hard to get balls to people to make assist or to involve them. And then people maybe who have ambulation issues are doing their their best to get into a position even if it makes them going you know for five minutes getting down the length of the field to get there. That’s their goal to get in a position where they might have a chance at a goal or to get back to defense. So there’s there’s things we invent for everybody that make them slow this game down for them without without Making anybody really slow down that much?
Michael Hingson 25:02
So, do you find challenges of getting totally ambulatory people, for example, to play and play well with people who may not be as ambulatory or work as well? Moving around?
Ross Lilley 25:17
Yeah, it’s a that’s a challenge, you know. And so when we call is trying to find the perfect game, and it is a challenge, but you know, it’s a skill to play to is a skill to learn how to play with varying abilities at once. And, you know, we do when we do this camp in Florida, that’s our, our proving ground for this, and you live with this for a week, and people get very good at the game by about the second day.
Michael Hingson 25:42
So people grow accustomed to it and grow into it. And at all. Yeah,
Ross Lilley 25:47
yeah. Our whole community is about getting out of the way of yourself. And so if and trying to let something bigger come through yourself and something bigger come through each of these games.
Michael Hingson 26:00
Are you teaching people to be competitive? Or is it more teaching people to, to work together and have fun together? Or is it kind of a combination? Because a lot of the sports, like soccer, like tennis, football, and so on, are more competitive sports, and they’re usually viewed as being very competitive. But is that the same way it comes out for you? Or is it a little bit different in terms of mindsets?
Ross Lilley 26:29
It’s funny, I don’t, you know, like, in popular sport, I think great competitors aren’t necessarily great people, right? They’re just insecure about losing. And I think it’s, we all need to learn how to lose so we can learn to live with something that’s bigger. But in ours, we do teach to can be competitive, but in the end, Ron, we want people also to have perspective about it. And I saw like, the worst thing that could happen is where you have people come in, who don’t care. So it’s nice to care. And but it’s even better if they compete with themselves more than anything else, right and drive with strive for more function drive for some, something that they they’ve accomplished on their own. And even farther than that, it’s great to be a part of a team and to feel like, maybe for the first time in your life, you’re valued on a team. Right, and that, that you’re not just a throw away, and that there are people aren’t condescending to you, and you’re on the field of play. We have an example we have a friend of ours, one of our athletes, was on ESPN for playing a cerebral palsy, and some, you know, ambulation was a little a little slower than most folks, and they put them into a high school football game, right. And so one play they gave, you know, the other team was in it, they gave him the ball, and they let him run and eventually ran out of bounds. And I almost think that that kid should have been tackled, that maybe there’s an art to tackling and but people deserve the dignity of failure they deserve to be treated with with some seriousness, and that their accomplishments aren’t something where, you know, there’s all these videos of, of Little League games, where people are some kid hits with cerebral palsy, and is going around the bases, while people fun falling down for the ball and all this stuff. You know, throw a kid out every now and then make them work for accomplishment, make, make them understand what it’s like that that you know what they truly appreciate what they’ve done. If I went even further, it’s like races. We like we like we have sometimes we have races, and we like people in the races to do something that they have to train for if someone doesn’t train for it. It’s just, you know, it’s not that compelling. And people on the outside need to see people with disabilities training, and being really true athletes. So we like things where people train for it. And people accomplish something. That makes sense.
Michael Hingson 29:03
It does. It absolutely makes sense. Because we we find so many people who behave exactly as you’re describing, oh, it’s great that he was able to run 20 or 30 yards. Wasn’t that wonderful that he had the ball. But by the same token, we’re not really dealing with, with what’s going on and who’s the one that really comes out feeling good about that? Well, I suppose that there is some truth to the fact that the person involved is excited that they had the ball, but the people are really doing it for themselves so that they can feel good that they can feel superior, rather than as you said, tackling somebody after a while, by the way, there’s nothing wrong with tackling somebody rather than them running out of bounds. Even if they go 15 yards and then you tackle them. That that says something to and you’re right there’s an art to tackling that. it. It’s all about changing in a sense, the definition of winning. Hmm.
Ross Lilley 30:05
I love that. Yeah. I never heard that. But I think that’s a great concept too about the defining redefining winning.
Michael Hingson 30:16
There’s, there’s nothing wrong with winning and being competitive. But if you have to win, then are you really winning?
Ross Lilley 30:27
Oh, that’s even better. Yes. We are very much on the same page. Yeah.
Michael Hingson 30:33
And the the fact is that, I realized that with most modern sports, it’s all about winning. But is it really or should it really be something to think about? Hmm, that’s
Ross Lilley 30:49
Yeah. So you you have thought about this. You are into it? Are you Are you a big sports fan yourself?
Michael Hingson 30:55
I listened to, to sports more than anything else. But I, I grew up with some really great sports announcers to be my teachers as it were listening to them and just their philosophies of dealing with the game. I mean, you know, baseball, you can’t do better than having Vin Scully describe the games and just all the things that he talked about, and I know that he understood, winning and, and he always wanted the, I’m sure the Dodgers to be the victorious team. But the way he announced the games, no matter who won, it was really all about the game, which is what it ought to be. Hmm.
Ross Lilley 31:32
Wow. Is he still alive? Really?
Michael Hingson 31:36
Did he now he passed away last year? This year? Yeah. Yeah, he retired at the end of I think 2016 and then passed away last year.
Ross Lilley 31:48
That’s well put, and I’m glad I’m glad you’ve put time to think about that. I I think about it all the time as well. And I always wonder if I’m the only one. Sailor staff thinks about it. And especially when you’re putting game systems together.
Michael Hingson 32:03
What’s your favorites? Which Oh, go ahead.
Ross Lilley 32:06
Go now my favorite, your favorite sport to teach? I guess, all of them because, like our game systems, you know, if it’s team sport, our game systems work across all the main team sports, football, basketball, and soccer and even floor hockey. We work with some Boston Bruins on floor hockey and we work with some of the New England Patriots on our on our training systems. And as long as people are moving, and we work with the Red Sox as well, but the as long as they’re moving for a prolonged period of time, if this sport gets them going like that I like anything that drives that it’s not so much the sport is is to me as much as people participating in it and getting into shape and belonging to something
Michael Hingson 32:57
the professional athletes been in terms of working with him and so on. And how does all that work out?
Ross Lilley 33:04
Pretty good. Let me you know, it’s good. Somebody from your area, Jimmy Garoppolo. injured, San Francisco 40 Niners quarterback. He came to about three of our clinics when he was with the with the Patriots. He and some other players really got it. They didn’t they didn’t come with any condescending condescension. And they didn’t settle for you know, they held the bar high for our athletes. It was pretty good. So I’m surprised at this. We’ve had other guys like Andrew Ray Croft from the from the Bruins came out, and Terry Rozier who’s now with the Charlotte Hornets. He was with the Celtics they came out in and within minutes, I thought they pretty felt pretty comfortable that population, I thought they will be talking down to him. But they were always really good.
Michael Hingson 33:55
That’s really pretty cool. And nothing like having some of those folks coming out and teaching because you’re getting taught by the best in the business.
Ross Lilley 34:05
Right. Yeah. And also, it’s nice when they’re sort of humbled by what we do. That’s a nice, that’s always a nice gesture when they are when they have done football clinics before and run them. And they defer to us. I think that’s really that’s a nice, that’s a nice recognition for us.
Michael Hingson 34:27
So how large is your staff?
Ross Lilley 34:30
We have in the summer, just about 20 of us. But during the year we have just three of us full time who are trainers, and we have other support staff staff. We have actually we also during the year have interns who are terrific. We use a lot from local universities.
Michael Hingson 34:48
Do you have or ever have any people with disabilities on the teaching staff?
Ross Lilley 34:53
That’s a really good one. And if it was during the year yes, you You know, but under water, we, we don’t, mainly because of safety and needing to, if we need to jump in the water and rescue somebody, and we can only afford, you know, three or four people on a team, we can’t we can’t go rescue one somebody with a disability. It’s a really, it’s something we agonize with all the time because we’re on the water. But we are not good in that regard. Only because we, you know, we have to decide who we’re going to pay. We have limited resources, and we need everybody to be, quote unquote able bodied, to help with rescues if need be.
Michael Hingson 35:37
Right? Well, I think of the possibility of people like people who happen to be blind, who might very well be able to help and rescuing there are several centers around the country that have blind teachers teaching in a variety of environments. Including taking students out to lakes and doing various things in the summer. And again, it’s it’s all a matter of looking and learning. But there you have someone who’s a lot more ambulatory, if they learned to listen and really are aware of what’s going on around them.
Ross Lilley 36:17
Ya know, that that’s probably a good point yet, I just don’t have anybody in front of me, like, like that. But, you know, in a way, I probably should be more proactive and seeking people like this in in the least bit, because they can, they can have other folks. I don’t wanna use the word inspire, lightly, but they could help inspire other folks with a similar abilities to come out. Right, right. I guess we’re all role wary of using the word inspire. But I still love the word. Well, there’s nothing
Michael Hingson 36:51
wrong with inspire, again, if you’re doing it for the right reason. And this is, as we were talking about earlier, with the whole issue of running 30 yards, and then running out of bounds, but not being willing to tackle someone who is at this really being inspired as opposed to just feeling good. And there’s nothing wrong with true inspiration, something that motivates someone to do more and feel better about themselves than they did and shoot for higher goals. So that’s okay. I think, I think that’s what in part has to come from inspiration.
Ross Lilley 37:29
Well, well said,
Michael Hingson 37:32
and it’s a, it’s a process, but for you, what’s the most rewarding part of what you do, you’re certainly doing something that has to do a lot of things that I don’t want to use the word make you feel good, but inspire you. But for you, what’s the most rewarding part of what you do?
Ross Lilley 37:52
When, when, when it works? When when we do works. And again, if I can, you know, there’s, there’s something that bigger that bigger than me that kind of is in this organization, even though we my wife, and I, my son and my daughter are founders of this, we we’ve found that there’s a there’s a culture that’s developed in this that that goes behind us and I love it to see when when people remind me of some of the original tenets of how we started, you know, and like, or if I see some protocol or device or technique work with somebody, when it shouldn’t, I’m really I love that. Like, instead of like we’ve worked for 12 years plus on this gait trainer. And when I see people’s gait, improve after a half hour on the machine, and just it’s incredible to me, or when I see you know why I’m not a really confident person outside of this, but I’m really confident what we can do with people on a windsurfer on a stand up paddleboard and a canoe and I know, when even when families say this won’t work, I know that I can make certain things work and to see that is really something or to see someone surprised me and show what they can do. beyond what I ever expected, I love that.
Michael Hingson 39:16
Tell me about a real surprise something that happened or a person that came to the program and you didn’t think necessarily they could do all that they ended up doing and they really surprised you. I’d love to hear a story about that.
Ross Lilley 39:33
I got a bunch but they all start with my son, right he’s you know, by all rights he should be. He would be without what we do. He would be in a power chair with contractures all day long, and now he can because we have trained so much I can walk with him just holding one hand is rigorous but I can hold one hand and walk with Him. So that’s that’s somebody you know, by definition no functional use of his, either of his legs or his arms and I can hold one hand walk. So he, and you know, the way that he did some of those marathons, some of that was the greatest athletic feats I’ve ever been a part of in my life. Other than that, we have people who are running now who had hemiparesis and you know, we’re in coma, and then came out of this and work with us and train with us and now can run and play in some of our games. Those guys are amazing. And there’s other people still who were up and using some our equipment and training in keeping you know, in like this, like somebody I work with today’s that he has MS. Cannot wait bear. But in our in our machine, he was up and standing in propelling this machine on a treadmill today all by himself. That’s kind of incredible.
Michael Hingson 41:02
How does the machine work? What does it do?
Ross Lilley 41:05
We’ve, what we’ve done is we without a motor, but yes, using pressure on a treadmill. And and this unit that we’ve built off the back where we grab, this device grabs people at their lower leg. And as a piston is connected to essentially a rebuilt, spin cycle. And we can determine how long their length of stride is going to be how much hip and knee flexion or bend they’re going to have. And then you put it for in a uniform fashion on a treadmill for, you know, half hour to an hour at a time. And we can pedal people through to weaken, we can slow people’s rate down or increase it and it’s it’s emulating what a $400,000 device can do. And it works really well.
Michael Hingson 41:55
Have you ever looked into? Or Has anyone ever taken any of these and manufactured them and maybe did more mass producing of them?
Ross Lilley 42:04
We’re on were doing that now. Actually, we’re working with a manufacturer on on that. Except the process is long. And there’s lots of parts to this. But yeah,
Michael Hingson 42:14
and you got to go through approvals to get the whole legal aspect of it addressed as well.
Ross Lilley 42:21
Well, we have our patent down, and lots of other patents associated with it. And now we need to get FDA approval.
Michael Hingson 42:28
That was what I was going to ask you about how the FDA figures into it all.
Ross Lilley 42:34
Where it’s semi medical exercise. So we’re trying to navigate those waters and I, I’m relying on one of our board members to do it to work with me on it. Well,
Michael Hingson 42:45
it does. It does sound really exciting to to do and to see the things that are happening. And again, I think one of the most significant parts about this is that you’re welcoming to everyone. Do you have any? What we would call able bodied people come to the program? Or do they just come to staff? Or do you ever welcome people without disabilities into the program as well?
Ross Lilley 43:10
All the time? Yeah. Mostly into our games. So if someone wants to volunteer or if they want to play, we’ll put into like a Thursday night soccer program or or have played tennis with us something like that. Yeah. You I know we decided I think told me early you you’re not you’re not actively playing a sport now. But if you could, what would it be?
Michael Hingson 43:39
Oh, gosh. There are several I’d love to play even if it’s just to learn more about them. I’ve always been a baseball fan. So I’d love to. To do more with baseball. I’d love to learn more about football. I enjoy listening to football, although baseball is still always been my number one interest but I’m spoiled as I said before by Vince Skelly. But, you know, I, I think that sports in general would would be fun to experience no matter what it is because there’s so much of it that I don’t know a lot about and for me playing it would be as much as anything a way to and a reason for learning about the sport.
Ross Lilley 44:26
So I mean, you never day with a beep ball or anything like that.
Michael Hingson 44:30
never really did anything with a beat ball. There wasn’t a group around to do it with for me.
Ross Lilley 44:36
Wow. It’s a ride. I’ve tried to it’s a riot. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I thought it’s a genius and,
Michael Hingson 44:46
and then there’s the new one talking about soccer and so on dodgeball. Oh, yeah. And I don’t know whether I want to be up Be a person who just has to run around drop on the ground might get kicked in the head and going after a ball. So Oh, no.
Ross Lilley 45:10
Soccer is amazing, right? directly on the sides like three versus three. Yeah. That is an amazingly well developed sport is incredible.
Michael Hingson 45:21
And Basketball is fun. What else? Again? I’m spoiled. We had Chick Hearn out there out here and when I lived in the east, the first time I lived in the east, I lived in Winthrop, Massachusetts. And of course we had Johnny most.
Ross Lilley 45:37
Yep. Yeah. All right. Let’s stop settling down which
Michael Hingson 45:42
will check stole the ball. I have that record.
Ross Lilley 45:50
Wow. Winthrop, we it’s a good surfing beach or Winthrop.
Michael Hingson 45:54
Yeah, yeah. And Winthrop and Revere Beach and so on. Sure.
Ross Lilley 45:58
One of our programs looks at Revere. Winthrop, by the way, one of the islands where we have a program. Uh
Michael Hingson 46:03
huh. Wow, wait. So I keep up with sports. I’ve just never been very active in that regard. I was in the boy scouts, but we didn’t do sports stuff other than hiking and camping. Which, which I did. So that was that was okay. You’re a scout? Yeah, I was an Eagle Scout.
Ross Lilley 46:25
Holy smokes. Really?
Michael Hingson 46:29
Well, you know, you got to do something to to keep functioning and active.
Ross Lilley 46:34
So being on the bestseller list are Eagle Scout, they’re about the same, aren’t they?
Michael Hingson 46:41
They’re fun to do.
Ross Lilley 46:43
Holy smokes. And what was your What was your project as an Eagle Scout?
Michael Hingson 46:48
Oh, gosh, I was involved in doing some radio stuff and doing some things relating to publicity in Palmdale where I grew up.
Ross Lilley 47:02
I used to, I used to be familiar with that. Because we would have you know, kids would come by the church, and we’re our program and they need to find a project, right inevitably would be us building more times than not, it was let’s create a ramp for somebody in town, you know, wheelchair ramp.
Michael Hingson 47:21
I’m on the board of an organization that works with scouts up in Santa Rosa. And they’ve built benches for the the center and done a number of things. It’s been a favorite place for Eagle projects,
Ross Lilley 47:33
benches, benches, that’s a big one. Right? Those are good.
Michael Hingson 47:36
Those are always good. What’s the biggest challenge that you tend to face from the community are in the community? In
Ross Lilley 47:45
the mean, as I was running in running the program here or in my life, which to both? Oh, gosh, I was hoping you take the first one.
Michael Hingson 47:57
You get both.
Ross Lilley 47:58
I mean, I think more than that I you know, we’re always rubbing two nickels together to make it by right. We’re we’re in the black all the time. But it’s funding for programs like this, I spend more time doing programming than I do on fundraising. And I always grateful for donors who free me up so I can free us up so we can focus more on programming than anything else. So that tends to be a kind of a worry that goes with with our work. I I guess but I also worry that I’m I won’t live long enough to see some of what we have come to fruition or perfection, I guess, especially with in regards to our gait training. I think what we do well, we’ve, we’ve come up with a system that I think is a true game changer. But it needs to be perfected. And it needs to be something that we universally have out there that that makes everybody improve their gait. And then this other thing are big challenges. How do we how do we train people, kids in schools with disabilities, where the resources they are, they’re underserved, and his resources are slim, and they need to build habits that will stick with them after age 22. And so those are things that kind of gnaw at me that I you know, we just got to get it done gotta get done, and I don’t know how to do it on a broad scale. So sad that
Michael Hingson 49:35
at the same time, um, how, what are what are some stories about people and how they have improved because of what you’ve done from an attitudinal standpoint, because it must be for people who really internalize it. People who go through the program, whether it’s just dealing with gait training, or who are going off and playing sports, and we talked about winning and all that but just playing Seeing should be a lot for people, but how have you truly helped people and their attitudes and their outlook on life really improves.
Ross Lilley 50:12
I can tell how they’ve helped me that what the best part of this is a community that we have a community that claims people for life, you know, if you’re if you’re part of this community, you’re with us, and we’ll never let you go. And so I, I am part of that as well, these the my friends, all my friends, and the closest people I have here are those with whom I work and those and the athletes in the program so that you buy you on a Sunday morning. I so as far as athletes go, I hear all the time, people who say, you know, you, you’ve shown us a different side to our son, or I’m so grateful. One guy you wrote literally said you, you helped us be brave with the wind. I love that one. I was I was teaching on Martha’s Vineyard in in someone who just couldn’t believe they were out in the water doing this. So I hear that kind of all the time where people come to program and they expect to do something, you know, they they’ve heard that people could kayak and then and then we try to steer them to something that might be a little bit tougher. And then we know we can have success with and then when we do that, they just can’t believe it. They’re blown away. Yeah. And so lots of people like that. Which is tougher when surfing or kayaking. Windsurfing, ah. That’s why I mean, I guess you can say there are as tough as you want to make them and to go high level on something, but to get involved in independent I think is tougher. But you know, it’s also when we can have more success with I’m not as huge a fan of kayaking as I am as the other sports we do them. But the seating alone, because you’re long sitting it, it makes your posterior chain really tight, your hamstrings are tight and it and it pulls your pelvis back. So you’re kind of in a tough position, and people aren’t necessarily as loose as they were if they could sit more upright.
Michael Hingson 52:23
Right? Well, and well, I don’t know, I was gonna say, I would think that there are probably more balance issues also, with the board and interacting with the board with windsurfing than there are with kayaking,
Ross Lilley 52:40
right? Where we can, we have all sorts of boards that we’ve designed where we can be very stable. And you know, we’ve had people on events on our boards before because we were so confident they weren’t gonna fall in, you know, so you can get as stable as you want, and then graduate to less and less stable as you go on. Less, less stable is faster,
Michael Hingson 53:02
yours. Right? Right. Well, for you and all that you’ve done. Have you ever thought of writing this story, creating a book or anything like that, to help educate more people about what you do and get them to realize that people with disabilities are just the same as everyone else? As I like to say, we need to change the definition because disability does not mean lack of ability.
Ross Lilley 53:31
Yeah. Well, I was hoping I’d meet a best seller author. I did at one point, and then I think it’s like an invention that gnaws at you, I gave out, I gave up on it. You know, and I’m not that gifted a writer. So I, when I was in seminary, I took a course at Harvard. And it was on writing in the teacher that, of course, was a friend of mine, who’s an editor at The Atlantic Monthly Michael Curtis. And so over the course of 12 weeks, I had one sentence in one paragraph where he said, Good job. But then again, I started writing a book, Cory, more to the point of what you’re saying, I started writing a book about our experiences. And he loved it, which really just blew me away that I gotten to the point where this guy would like it, but the process and to come up with stuff would be tough. I think people want you to my advice was a one a more personal stuff than I wanted to give. They want to know about the struggles and how it plays itself out in your marriage and things like that. And I wasn’t gonna go that deep into that. I mean, so if they want a little bit of any controversy I could have as well, which I didn’t have a ton of.
Michael Hingson 54:55
Yeah, yeah. Everybody seems to like to have controversy and that doesn’t necessarily help all I think that the personal aspects telling personal stories can be done without jeopardizing individuals, but the stories and the accomplishments I would think would be very meaningful and make a book like that really be something people would value. Yeah, exactly.
Ross Lilley 55:19
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I mean, and I haven’t been that specific with the stories, I think I, I would be better if I had given you some stories of some of these folks. And I was, I was just thinking that there was one guy who had it who had a stroke in his by his late 40s, and came to the program. And, and he used to run, he was a middle distance runner. And we have been working with him on his gait. And we we put him into our sports camp in our Florida sports camp. And he started, he started just blocking things. And by the end of the camp, he was he was running for balls, and even sending balls, he developed a pretty good kick, which was really remarkable. So he’s planting with this, this almost straight leg, almost less functional, very less functional than the right leg and his planning on that and kicking and shooting. And so by the end of the camp, he was just so surprised with himself and so grateful for this. Yeah, have you had
Michael Hingson 56:33
people who you worked with, who felt well enough about themselves and who could do it, who went off and maybe found a job or got a job or went back to working because they suddenly realized they could do that?
Ross Lilley 56:49
I wish that were true. But more times than not, it’s just it’s such a tough nut to crack, right? We’ve had people go off, we have had people go off and get jobs, and then over time, gave up the jobs because even as they wanted to work, the job was somewhat beneath their skill set. Right that before the before their accident or their injury, they you know, some of these people had pretty high level jobs managers or, or writing code. And then, you know, the focus wasn’t thereafter and they were doing things that are overtime seem what menial to him. So, yeah, we haven’t had, I mean, we’ve had success in that people wanted to dream for that kind of thing. And people have more function, and they brought more to the relationships. But as far as jobs goes, I haven’t seen a lot of sustainable kind of improvement there. I’m sure you’ve seen the same thing, right?
Michael Hingson 57:48
Well, I see a lot of it when you know, in the case of blindness, specifically your loss of vision. The fact is that, for the most part, losing eyesight doesn’t mean you can’t go back and do what you were doing. There are so many people in so many different kinds of jobs, that the proof is really there that you can go back to doing what you did. You’ve got to learn skills, but you can still do it. There are very few jobs where that really isn’t the case. Unfortunately, there are all too many people who think it’s not the case. That’s what makes the big difference. Yeah, it’s still mindset.
Ross Lilley 58:29
And if you were in the workplace, I mean, I I work with people, you know, especially when we have kids on the autism spectrum, we’ll work with people until if they will keep coming, we will work with them until they succeed in some form. And I think that Sure, I wish that I wish that were the same in the workplace is to that the upside for this population is so enormous you just are you wish you had that kind of patience in the work in the workplace? Well, I
Michael Hingson 58:54
might be another dimension where you have to involve some other organizations or some other entities to make that happen. Yeah, it isn’t like you have to do it all but at the same token you at least start the process so in in the camp in the program obviously you want people to have fun Where does I’ve got to ask because I always always think about these things where does humor fit into all this
Ross Lilley 59:21
I’m I’m humorless and always appropriate. So I know I’m
Michael Hingson 59:29
it’s always one in every crowd
Ross Lilley 59:31
that I know I’m, I’m I’m I guess I would say hi effect. I’ve been rich, rich asset kind of person. And always looking for the gleam in people’s eyes and always requiring that evolve the people that work for us that they they look for the gleam in people’s eyes and connect. Yeah, and for me to do that, almost nine times out of 10 takes humor and not in and on the border of appropriateness, whatever it takes to reach people. is part of it. So yeah. And we also don’t like to take ourselves too seriously. And so you need humor to help people not take themselves too seriously. And to help people. You know, in our program, there’s no tragedy. No one comes in here leave are leaves this place thinking that their lives are tragic. No one allows anybody to feel like that. It’s not as it’s not overt, but it’s just a kind of a sense you have and part of that is laughing at ourselves all the time. You know, I’m, I kind of like the king of self deprecation, and I’m fine with it. If people want to poke fun at me to, to laugh at and to laugh a little bit at the situation. I love it. So
Michael Hingson 1:00:45
which gets us back to our whole issue of winning, right? You’re you you can be self deprecating, you can have fun. And as you said, not take yourself too seriously. No, seriously, maybe sort of kind of, but not too seriously, which is really important. Well, I have to say to you, sir, contrary to what you believe, and believed, it has now been an hour that we’ve been doing this and you didn’t think you had a story to tell?
Ross Lilley 1:01:18
I had a story. I didn’t know if it’s gonna be that interesting. So I’m glad. I’m glad we’ve made it is 10. Very easy. And you’re you’re so engaging is great.
Michael Hingson 1:01:26
Well, thank you. Tell me about the name of the program, how people can reach out to learn more about the program. And, of course, being prejudiced about these kinds of things, make donations to the program.
Ross Lilley 1:01:37
So we’re Access Sport America and it’s our website is access. Access sport America, sport America. Okay. Yeah, so just just two s’s in it, but you go, our website is goaccess.org, G O A C C E S S dot org. And you can learn more about us there. And also, if you want to make a donation, you can as well and we’re primarily bait boss, Boston based or northeast based in Northeast Ohio, our our programs for schools are, you know, becoming national, we’re hoping that we can expand that program and help people in different school systems with that system. And as far as our gait training, go, glad to handle anybody who may be want to come out in the area and work for a little while. Although that takes that takes weeks and weeks. If they had they need to have the wherewithal to do that. But if our fire device is manufacturable that will be on our website and in probably about a year and how to get that.
Michael Hingson 1:02:39
That’ll be exciting. Yeah, and again, it’s access sport America. ACCE SS p o r t.
Ross Lilley 1:02:47
E S S P O R T. Yes. Yes. Well done.
Michael Hingson 1:02:51
Cool. Well, and if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Do they best do that through LinkedIn or?
Ross Lilley 1:02:58
I can write me a Ross at Goaccess.org R O S S at Go. access.org
Michael Hingson 1:03:04
There you go. Well, Ross, Lilly, it has been absolutely fun. And I’ve learned a lot I am looking forward to somehow getting back that way from out here and getting a chance to meet you and shake your hand in person and go windsurfing.
Ross Lilley 1:03:20
We might do some clinics in California, and if we do we will now
Michael Hingson 1:03:23
we’re talking Okay, well, that would be fun. And I’ll bring my dog. Yes, please. Of course, cat won’t come the dog will. I don’t know whether he’ll want to windsurf, but you never know. But I want to. I want to really thank you for being here today. And being with us. I think this has been absolutely enjoyable, inspirational and fun. And that’s as good as it gets.
Ross Lilley 1:03:52
Thank you. Same here. I wish I had asked you more questions to learn more about you
Michael Hingson 1:03:56
will see now you’d have to start a podcast so you can do that. Pretty sure.
Michael Hingson 1:04:03
Well, I hope you’ve liked listening to us today. Please reach out. I’d love to hear from you. You can reach me at MichaelHI at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Visit our podcast page www dot Michael Hingson H i n g s o n.com/podcast. Where you can listen to the podcast or as you may have found us elsewhere. That’s okay too. Please give us a five star rating. Like go to apple and iTunes and give us a five star rating. We really appreciate the ratings you give us and any comments and thoughts that you have in Ross, for you and for everyone listening. If you know of anyone else that we ought to have on this podcast, please let us know reach out, let us know or give us an introduction. I would appreciate it we’re always looking for interesting, new and fun guests. So please let us know and we’d love to hear hear from you about that. But again, Ross, thank you very much. We really appreciate you being here and anything we can do to make the program successful. We’re in. We’re wanting to do it. So thank you very much. And we will hopefully do this again, huh? Oh, yes.
Ross Lilley 1:05:14
Oh gosh. Yes.
Michael Hingson 1:05:16
Well, great. Well, thanks again and we hope that you’ll continue to listen to podcasts for us.
Ross Lilley 1:05:22
Michael Hingson 1:05:27
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.