Episode 288 – Unstoppable Leader in a Mosaic World with Susan Popoola

“Mosaic world”? Meet Susan Popoola from the UK. Susan will tell you that she supports leaders in optimising and bringing out the best in people and organisations. As we learn, Susan was born in Great Britain to Nigerian parents. During part of her younger life she was, what she calls, “private fostered” and did not live directly with her parents.
 
Susan attended college in Nigeria where she received her Bachelor’s or “First Degree” in Social Sciences. Later in England she obtained her Master’s Degree in HR Strategy and Change.
 
After working for other organizations Susan decided to leap out on her own and put her entrepreneurial spirit to work and formed her own company to work with leaders who work with established and emerging purpose driven people to create Harmony, Impact and Legacy within their organizations.
 
Susan is the author of three books and has begun working on a fourth.
 
Our conversation is far ranging going from a discussion about stress to talking about Inclusion. She will tell us about how she created the concept of a “mosaic world” as a model to incorporate all persons by embracing each individual’s gifts and skills.
 
 
 
About the Guest:
 
With a first degree in Social Sciences, Diploma in Systems Thinking &
Masters in HR Strategy & Change, Susan works with established and
emerging purpose driven leaders to create Harmony, Impact and Legacy,
for a Mosaic World in which everyone is valued for who they are and what
they have to offer.
 
Her deep rooted belief in human value, and her ability to understand
and connect with people from a rich diversity of backgrounds enables her
to support leaders in optimising and bringing out the best in people and
organisations. Her belief in human value is reflected in her podcast,
“Leading in a Mosaic World, and her books: Touching the Heart of Milton
Keynes: A Social Perspective, Consequences: Diverse to Mosaic
Britain, and Male Perspectives on The Value of Women at Work. She is also the creator of the Legacy Alignment Programme that enables senior
professionals to design a legacy plan that ensures their work is extremely
fulfilling and makes a positive impact now and into the future.  
 
She has extensive cross-sector and international experience working withorganisations and delegates from Europe, Africa, the Middle East, China and the US. She is also a South East Midlands Local Enterprise Partnership Ambassador, Royal Society of Arts fellow, Good Work Guild member, and former Fellow of Windsor Castle’s Society of Leaders. She was recently designated a Black Female Pioneer by Milton Keynes City Council. When she’s not working with organisations, you are likely to find her on the Golf course, working to support young people who have been in the care system, or working on her latest book on multiculturalism.
 
Ways to connect with Susan:
 
Website: www.MosaicWorld.live
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/SusanPopoola/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/susanpopoola/
Publications: https://www.mosaicgold.org/publications
 
 
 
About the Host:
 
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
 
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
 
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https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/
 
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https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/
 
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Transcription Notes:
 

Michael Hingson ** 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I’m Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that’s a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we’re happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
 
Michael Hingson ** 01:20
Well, hi and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. Today. We get to chat, from my perspective, at least all the way across the pond, to Susan Popoola, who is not in the US, but with the speed of light, you’ll never know it. How’s that for an introduction? Susan, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We’re really glad you’re here.
 
Susan Popoola ** 01:46
Thank you very much for having me. Michael, well,
 
Michael Hingson ** 01:49
one of the things I know we’re going to talk about a little bit later is the whole concept of it. I’m really excited to get to it, a mosaic world, as you describe it, and I know you’ve written about in some but we’ll get there. But let’s start. I love to always start this way. Tell me about the early season, growing up and all that sort of stuff.
 
Susan Popoola ** 02:08
Gosh, that takes me back a few years. Oh, that’s okay, yeah, possibly a few more years than you might have imagined from my voice, which actually people say, sounds quite young. So I was born in England, born in England to Nigerian parents, and I spent my foundation years here in England and and then I worked then, and I in my those years, I spent my time very much in what I would describe as a very much white working class environment. And I say that because it has relevance to how I think can see the world. Because from there, I moved, we moved to, let’s take to Nigeria, and then went to secondary school in Nigeria, my first degree Nigeria. And contrary to my earlier those foundation years, I was then in what you could call a rather middle class, more affluent area environment with people well,
 
Michael Hingson ** 03:20
and you said that you and you do sound like you’re fairly young, but you opened the door. So how long ago was that? Or how old are you now? Or do you ever want to tell
 
Susan Popoola ** 03:31
I know they do say you shouldn’t ask a lady, but I so I just about made it into the 1960s 19 November, 1969 Okay, so 1969 Yes, I just about made it to
 
Michael Hingson ** 03:50
the 70s. Okay, well, that’s, that’s fine. That is, I am, I am older than that from a time standpoint, although I don’t feel it, and I think that we all can choose how well we want to deal with how we mature and grow older, and all that we can decide it’s a good thing or not, doesn’t bother me a bit either way.
 
Susan Popoola ** 04:14
Exactly, they do say it’s you’re they say you’re as old as you feel. And that’s an interesting one, because you can look at that from the perspective of how you feel on the basis of how you behave, but you could also think about that from how healthy and fit you are as well.
 
Michael Hingson ** 04:34
So you mentioned you got your first degree in Nigeria, and what was that in? And I said, that’s sort of equivalent to what we would call over here, a bachelor’s degree.
 
Susan Popoola ** 04:43
It is, indeed and it to be, it was a bachelor’s Social Science degree in political science. Ah,
 
Michael Hingson ** 04:51
now, why? Why that specifically? What prompted you to go there?
 
Susan Popoola ** 04:56
It was, it’s an interesting one, because when I. Small if you’d asked me what I wanted, what do you want to do for a living? I’d have told you I wanted to write, and that’s all I knew that I wanted to do. But I was told you don’t write for a living. You do it as a hobby. So a Nigerian family, you go to university. It’s not a matter of whether you go or not. It’s a matter of what you’re going to study. And I had leaning towards the arts, the social sciences, and so that’s where I what I ended up doing. Okay,
 
Michael Hingson ** 05:41
so you got your bachelor’s or first degree in social science and political science, and then did you go straight on to graduate school from there?
 
Susan Popoola ** 05:52
No, I, I’ve worked. I worked for a number of years and and I guess a few years coming back to England. That was a few years later. That’s when I did my first my I did a post graduate in human resources management, and then at a later stage, both while I was working, I did a master’s in HR strategy and change, and I’ve done a few other little qualifications here and there along the way as well. But
 
Michael Hingson ** 06:27
clearly you were people oriented, since you seem to go off and look in the HR direction,
 
Susan Popoola ** 06:36
yes, though it’s an interesting thing HR because people do often go into HR because of people, but HR and HR, as I have experienced in my involvement, has been very much on the strategic side. Whenever I’ve worked with an organization, the first thing I do is say, what’s the business plan? What are you trying to achieve, and where do the people what’s the people strategy? Where do the people fit into that? How do they align? And so, yes, there is definitely a care for people. And I talk about myself, I title myself a human value optimization specialist, and that’s because I believe in human value and how we make the most of it, both for the benefit of individuals and for people around them as well, whether we’re talking about the workplace, education or wider society. What
 
Michael Hingson ** 07:42
kind of reactions do you get when, essentially, you ask those questions, and what, what I’m hearing you say is that you get down to the questions of, really, how are people valued within the organizational structure, within the leadership environment and so on. What kinds of reactions do you get? Because I’m sure that you get all sides or all sorts of different reactions and comments about that. Well,
 
Susan Popoola ** 08:11
I think the two core reactions, there’s a reaction which pertains to what people say, and I will say, 95% of the time for organizations I’ve worked with people, leaders that I speak to, it’s always that, yes, we agree. We value people. They’re important. Sometimes, on the other occasion, there’s the response that talks about the importance of profit and how that is almost more important. So there’s the response that is what people say, but then there is what I would say, the more pertinent response is what people do and what their people say. So I always love it when I have a conversation with a leader about the values of their organization, and I bump into someone that works for them, or speak to a team member and ask them what they think. I love it when there’s an alignment between what the two say, but I’m also mindful that sometimes there is not that alignment, and that’s the bit that is more important than what people actually say, and have to fight, sorry, that’s when you have to find a way of holding them to account to what they actually say. Do
 
Michael Hingson ** 09:42
you find overall that there is more of an alignment between people who are in leadership positions and those who work for them, or less of an alignment? Because I can imagine, and I’ve heard in talking with other people, that oftentimes we. Leaders think they’re aligned and they’re not.
 
Susan Popoola ** 10:03
Yeah, and it will it really does vary. Of course, I think the larger the organization it is, larger the organization is, the more difficult it is to find consistent alignment throughout, because even if the very senior leadership is aligned, then the challenge is making sure that all the managers and the leaders throughout have that same alignment to bring things together and that there’s that consistency with smaller organizations. It’s easier, but then the challenge is how to maintain that alignment the ethos and the values as the organization develops and grows.
 
Michael Hingson ** 10:57
Yeah, and I guess I would say that’s certainly not a surprise either. We have in larger organizations, there’s probably a little bit less attention paid as quickly as there should be to communications, and so there tends to be more of a lack of alignment and a lack of of understanding, unless a leader truly understands the value of communicating and really getting people to buy into the process.
 
Susan Popoola ** 11:34
There’s that, and it’s also the bit about who you recruit into your leadership team a number of years back, I worked with an organization from the startup stage to to it growing over the years, and we were very specific as a board in Rec in defining what the ethos and the values of the organization were to be, what it was going to be like, and we initially recruited the senior leadership team in alignment with that. But where, I will be honest and say where we made the mistake is not ensuring that the values came first when it came to recruiting leaders and team members further down the line. Yeah, so the communication is key, but communication specifically about what the organization is about, what it stands for.
 
Michael Hingson ** 12:40
So I assume that you worked for various companies in the in their HR world, in some way.
 
Susan Popoola ** 12:48
I in the HR world and beyond. I mean, I even, I’m pleased to say that there was a time so I’ve worked in organizations, cross sector, from private sector organizations to public bodies, to charities NGOs. So I’ve worked across cross board to larger organizations and smaller organizations, but I’m pleased to say that in between, I have taken on other roles. So for instance, I worked in investor relations for a year and some other operational positions. And investor relations specifically was great for me, because that meant that I had so investigations is a communications role, you can say a PR role, but PR communications to investors, both current and potential investors. So I learned to be able to understand an organization at all levels, to be able to understand the story of what’s going on, and be able to position that story.
 
Michael Hingson ** 14:04
Yeah, Investor Relations is a as an interesting challenge, because then you’ve got also on the other side, the brokers, and having to communicate with them can can also be a challenge, because they’ve got their own mindsets and they’re very profit oriented, but sometimes, I’m sure that you have to deal with getting them to understand there’s more to it than just creating a profit. You’ve got to create understanding, and you’ve got to be able to communicate with those you want to have trust you.
 
Susan Popoola ** 14:40
You have and, and, and I think, increasingly, especially with younger generations, they want to be paid. Well, why not? But there are other things that are important to them as well. And it’s, I think it’s always been the case for generations. But the thing. Is information is more readily available to them and to us as a whole than it used to be. So it’s easier for us to see the bigger picture of things and question things and say, Yes, money, profit is important, but not just that. So I recently came, I was at an event where they were sharing, okay, these are the top 50 companies, and when I look closer, it was purely on the basis of finance. So I challenge that, that that doesn’t make them the top countries, top companies just because they are making a lot of money?
 
Michael Hingson ** 15:45
Yeah, it all comes down to what do you define as a top company? Is it money? Is it teamwork? Is it how employees rank you? I mean, there’s so many options. Well, I’m
 
Susan Popoola ** 15:59
very big um, as my work has evolved, I very much have a focus on working with leaders to create harmony impact and at a more personal level for them, legacy. And so for me, if I’m thinking of a top company, I’d be thinking about the harmony that exists within and that’s how the relationships and how people work with each other, whether you’re talking about Gender, race, multiculturalism, what have you, social economics, or any features, or just just how people work together. So that harmonious environment, for me, helps to make you a top company together with the impact that you’re having, profit is important as well, because if you’re a business, that is still part of what you’re about, but what’s the impact that you’re having, and how do people feel and interact within
 
Michael Hingson ** 17:11
now today, you own your own business. Is that correct?
 
Susan Popoola ** 17:15
That is correct? Yeah. So
 
Michael Hingson ** 17:18
now, more than working for other companies as an employee, you you own your own business, and they bring you on board to to deal with with various issues in terms of HR and leadership and communications and so on. I presume that is correct. Yes. So what is human value optimization? That’s something you’ve referred to. So
 
Susan Popoola ** 17:42
human value optimization. So I came to human value optimization with recognition that there’s the work that I do, HR within organizations, there’s work I do with wider community and other things. And I just thought, with all the things that I do, what is it really about and what is most important to me? We spoke about what’s important to organizations, what is most important to me that informs everything that I do. It’s people, it’s the value that they have and how we recognize and realize that. And that goes back to when I was small, where my mom always told me that everyone is of importance. It doesn’t matter who they are, the person cleaning the office or the person managing the office, everyone’s adding something to whatever environment they’re in. And so for me, in all that I’m doing, it’s really how do we optimize that? And that is the two parts to it. It’s one that as individuals, people recognize the value that they have to offer, but also that the people around them in in the workspace, in community, in education, also recognize the value that people bring. And when you have an individual that recognizes their value, but they’re not appreciated, they don’t fully realize their value. On the other hand, if people think a person is great, but that person doesn’t see the value in themselves. Again, they’re limited, but when both come together, then you get the optimal result, and I will say also the most profitable result for both the individual, the organization they are working for, or whatever environment they’re in, and
 
Michael Hingson ** 19:43
I think that’s an extremely important and valuable point, is that it really does require both people to come to the same realization of the value of of people and of of an individual. What do. You do when you find that there is a misalignment, either the the employee doesn’t feel they’re valued, or the employer just plain isn’t valuing the skills and the the knowledge that somebody brings. How do you deal with that?
 
Susan Popoola ** 20:17
So, so that, I mean that. So I guess the two, the two parts to that with the individual, it’s it’s really working with them, working through them, to help them to see what they do, what they bring. So what is the work that they actually do? Because many of us are very good at seeing what we do in the just, I just do this. I only do this so it’s actually been able working with them to see these are all the different things you do, almost list those things out with those people, and getting them to see the impact that those things have, the value that those bring, and critically, how it fits into the wider organization. So I said mentioned earlier on, it doesn’t matter every other person cleaning the office or managing the office. It’s important it all fits into the business objectives. The administrator, who is just just, I’ve used the word just photocopying documents, typing or doing whatever the case may be, that’s an important part. If those things are not done, then the organization doesn’t function fully. So it’s enabling that individual to see it. But on the other side, it’s also reminding making the organization leadership aware of the importance of the roles that individuals play and how it all adds together to enable them to be successful.
 
Michael Hingson ** 22:09
And your success is based on how well you’re able to bring both sides of that into alignment.
 
Susan Popoola ** 22:16
To some extent, yes, and the reason why I say, to some extent, is there’s something about doing your best. You You I gravitate towards leaders who say that they really do want to have an impact. They really do value people, but then you can only go as far as they want and are willing to go. And so I don’t hold myself responsible for their actions. I hold myself so I’m responsible for guiding them and giving them as much support as I can,
 
Michael Hingson ** 23:03
but yeah, and the hope is that they, they recognize the value of that, and will finish the job of aligning
 
Susan Popoola ** 23:12
Yes, and I mean, and I always start off with as honest a possible conversation as as I can, which is very much about, what is it that you want? I mean, what do you really want? What are you trying to achieve? And what do you believe? What do you believe is standing in the way? What do you believe needs to be done, holding, then being able to hold a mirror, and it’s could be over time, to create awareness of what the challenges may be, trust checking is this really what you want to do? And if they’d say they do, then it’s working through. And I will do my uttermost to support them, but I will also hold them to account, and I have done that on occasion with leaders, whereby I’ve really stood firm to say, this is what you said, and what you’re doing doesn’t align, and therefore You have to behave differently. You have to do differently. And on occasion, I’ve actually thought I would be chopped out of the door, but that’s that’s never happened.
 
Michael Hingson ** 24:32
One of my favorite books is a little short book called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni, and it talks a lot about, of course, the whole concept of teamwork and trust, but it really does say that in well functioning teams, everyone can hold each other to account when commitments are made and it. The team is functioning well, they understand that what is happening is not that someone has a grudge or someone is trying to best someone else, but rather they’re just doing what the team should do, which is holding people to account, which is a very important thing to do. Yeah,
 
Susan Popoola ** 25:19
and in a way that goes back to when I talk about harmony, specifically with what you’re saying workplace harmony, I think it’s a journey to get there, because for people to someone to try to hold you to account, you have to have an understanding, a joint understanding, of what you’re all working towards in the first as a so that’s a starting point. You have to have that joint understanding. You have to have some knowledge of each other, so that there is a trust, um, you and that that comes with building a relationship. So there’s a trust that when you’re given that feedback, you know where, where it’s coming from, and you know the why of it. And then I think the third component of that, for me is how, how and when you do that. So you still, even though they’re the best of intentions and all, I think I’m still one that believes in giving feedback, giving constructive feedback, but giving it, making it constructive and being sensitive in the process.
 
Michael Hingson ** 26:43
Well, it is, it is an important thing to deal with, no doubt about it. Tell me about this whole concept of a mosaic world that that you talk about, what is it and what, what do we need to do to help, maybe create more of it. And what are you doing to create more of a mosaic world?
 
Susan Popoola ** 27:04
Okay,
 
Michael Hingson ** 27:07
lot of questions there.
 
Susan Popoola ** 27:09
There are a lot of questions. And so I’m pausing for a second to say, where do I start? And I think to contextualize it. I started thinking of a mosaic world at the time that I wrote my second book, which is consequences diverse to mosaic written. And the reason why I wrote the book was because this was, this was, I’m about 1212, years back, and there were people concerned about, there were people that, I guess, that you would describe as that was seen as nationalist, who were concerned and complaining about Immigration and people coming in, people taking jobs, and everything else along those lines. And there was the label of them being racist. And I said to myself, are they all racist? Some definitely were. But are they all racist? Well, were there deeper issues at play, and this scenario I’m setting out could apply to parts in America, anywhere across the world. So are they all racist against other people, or are there deeper issues? And when I looked you recognized how there are people that felt left behind, and I’m sure you can identify with that from the States, that there are people that have, over time, felt that they’ve been left behind, and they see or saw the immigrant as The cause of their problem. But my analysis was, yes, these people are faced with real issues that aren’t being addressed, but at the same time, it’s not the immigrant that is causing the problem, and immigrant is here as a consequence of history, and the key is how we live and work together. Because from that perspective, from me, Britain has is almost anywhere in the world, diverse by nature. And the key is, how do we come together to be something more effective, something cohesive? And that’s when I started thinking of the mosaic, mosaic Britain, and I’d say, therefore, and thereafter, a mosaic world. And for me, a mosaic world is, if you think of an a piece of artwork, mosaic piece of artwork, you see it’s got all the different colors. And I’m using the word see. See. Hope you don’t mind me using the word C, absolutely not. But it has all the different colors and all the different shapes and sizes, and all of those pieces come together to create something beautiful, but they only stick together if there’s something that binds them together. And for me, thinking of that as a workplace, a school, a community, a country, the world at large, those pieces that the thing that binds us together like glue, are the things we have in common. At a very basic level. You could score, you could speak of our common humanity. But even if that is not enough, then you’ve been to think of the com the things we have in common, the values that we share, the fact that we all typically love our children and the things that we do, we all want to work hard and get have good outcomes, but not just the things, but it’s not just the things we have in common, our purpose, our vision, but it’s also the things that are made that we make us curious about each other, that draw us towards each other. So all of those things come create a mosaic. And so then the third question, I guess, is, what am I doing? I think, in my work, whereby my work and my interactions, generally, where I see people, I’m curious about them. I want to know who they are, what they have to offer. How can what is the how do we value them? How do we include and engage with them and bring out the best in them and learn from them and drawing them all in and getting different people. So I do work within organizations and schools, which is what I where I talk about drawing up mosaic maps and drawing up relationships, and getting people to see the value that each brings and how they all come together. And just from a simple exercise, you find that people go away with a better awareness of people that they may have worked with for years. And so in very broad terms, that’s part of how I do it and how I encourage other people to do so. And
 
Michael Hingson ** 32:45
you describe it in a in a visual sense, which is fine, but I would also say that the mosaic is just as important when you’re dealing with with auditory and other kinds of things that are non visual. It’s all part of the same thing. And it gets back to the whole subject of diversity. We we talk a lot about diversity, but we see in the world so many times, when it really comes down to it, people don’t tend to want to tolerate those who are different than they are. How do we deal with that
 
Susan Popoola ** 33:21
we need to get, I mean, starting with like you and I, and I guess to some extent, that’s what we’re doing, because in some ways, we are different. As I said, we have commonalities but differences. But we need to start take the time to get to know other people. People are typically othered. We need to take the time to understand who they are, what motivates them, what so it’s what I did in the book that I just described. So the people that were seen as racist, instead of just saying, Yep, that’s what they are and condemning them, it’s taking the time to understand them. Who are they, what motivates them? What do they want from life? And then, if you’ve engaged people at the level of their humanity, even if outwardly, you might see them as hateful. When you engage with them and you start a conversation and you see them, there’s not always the case, but there’s a probability, or at least a possibility, that they’ll begin to see you, but again,
 
Michael Hingson ** 34:42
that you know that I’m just trying to puzzle through this that takes time, and everyone says that we just never have enough time to do a lot of things that we should do. So how do we recondition society to recognize the value? To and looking at people for who they are, not what they look like, or what they sound like, or anything like that, but really who they are.
 
Susan Popoola ** 35:09
I mean, the first thing I say is, when you say we don’t have time, I would say we don’t have time not to because for a lot of societies, things have become so divisive. Yeah, it’s, it’s ugly, it’s not progressive. And I’m, I’m not sure that anyone, whatever side they may see themselves on, I’m not sure that anyone is really happy with that, and it’s only going to get worse if we continue with the same trajectory of just looking at people that are different or say things we dislike, and at times, things that are outrightly wrong. So I’m not denying that, but if we continue on the path that we’re in we we self destruct. I mean, so for me, that’s the first thing. It we don’t have time not to. And there’s a saying, and I’m paraphrasing, that a friendship, a new friend, is just a smile away. It is true conversations and stories that you get to know each other people, whether that’s reading a book, listening to a podcast, sometimes there’s a message in a song, sometimes it’s the person that you meet at a bus stop and you talk to. So there’s something about being curious about people, rather than automatically condemning people for what is wrong and sometimes unquestionably wrong, but taking the time to understand their why and get under the skin of things, yeah, and so and I, if you do it once or twice with one or two people, then If you’re anything like me, then it becomes habit.
 
Michael Hingson ** 37:22
And that’s the point, right? It’s it’s really changing our mindset and changing our habits when, when we do, when we start to recognize maybe we’re cutting people out, and hopefully we see maybe there’s more to that person than meets the eye. It is changing a habit. It is changing a mindset. It is also about wanting to change, or deciding I’m open to exploring something different,
 
Susan Popoola ** 37:55
yeah, and for me as well, I mean, because it’s it’ll be easy for people to think I’m being soft. I’m far from it. Anyone that knows me and knows me well knows that I am actually very firm. But for me, even if so, that person might be wrong. But if you stand across a room and you shout at a person and tell them you’re wrong, you’re an idiot, or what have you. That person is not going to engage. The person’s going to tune out. Um, possibly my person might freeze. The person might respond by shouting back their own abuse, or what have you, or just they’re so frozen, so even if there’s truth in what’s being said, they can’t hear so the key therefore is, what do you do to engage Such a person? You take the time to ask questions, I will use the word gently asked questions to understand, and that’s understanding things that might not even be right. And it’s not saying that that makes them right. But then, if you can understand the person’s standpoint, you’ve engaged with them, they feel seen, they’re more likely to listen. You’re better able to correct or increase a person’s awareness of where they might be wrong, and they’re more likely to engage with it
 
Michael Hingson ** 39:37
well. And of course, that’s always something that is important. If you alienate someone, and if you just decide they’re useless, then they will be to you, even though they may not be useless at all, and it’s you, you each side has to take part in engaging. To have a discussion, and conversation is so important, we’re losing that art, I think, to a degree today. Yeah,
 
Susan Popoola ** 40:07
and it goes back to when you asked me about human value optimization, that that’s another example of it. It’s it’s getting to it’s seeing that person, it’s humanizing that person, so that person can be human towards us, right?
 
Michael Hingson ** 40:27
You’ve written three books, if you would tell us a little bit about each of those books. Okay,
 
Susan Popoola ** 40:34
so I’ve already spoken a bit about the second one, that’s consequences, diverse to mosaic Britain, and as I said, in many ways, that could just as well be consequences, diverse to mosaic America, or so many other places in the world. But then my first book is touching the heart of Milton King’s a social perspective, and that is based on, I live in Milton kings, and it’s seen as very, should I say, middle England, where everyone’s doing okay, it’s a new town, but it’s got its challenges and all. And as a new town, people often focus very much on the structures, but I wanted to talk about the people and what it’s like for all different people. And again, it’s how we all seen different people and how we ultimately live work more effectively together for the benefit of all. And so that’s touching the heart of Milton Keynes, a social perspective. And then my third, most recent book is male perspectives on the value of women at work. And while the first two are social perspectives, and the third one is more relate, work related, you can still see there’s a theme of being able to see others. So male perspectives on the value of women at work is very much the example that of being able to look at p or someone differently, or other people. And that came about because I was mindful through the years that the workplace designed around men women have been trying to make progress within that environment for years. They’re great programs. They’re great initiatives. They’re a lot that women have said about what needs to be done, what they need and what have you. But women’s progress doesn’t align. Women are very capable, just as capable as men. I wouldn’t say more capable. I wouldn’t say less capable. And so I thought, what is missing in the dialog or the interactions, is the voice of men. And so for for that third book, I decided to speak to a number of different men to understand from their perspective, what unique value do they believe women bring into the workspace. How do men and women typically navigate differently that has a negative impact on women, and what do they believe needs to be done to enable better progression and dare I say again, better gender harmony at work.
 
Michael Hingson ** 43:50
What was the biggest surprise for you about speaking to men concerning the value of women at work? Very few
 
Susan Popoola ** 43:59
of them felt that there’s ever been asked, and it’s not just asked about the value of women, but asked about women. They’ve they felt that their opinion has never been sought. They’ve typically been told, this is this is what you do wrong, and this is what needs to be done. This is what I need, and this is what needs to be done. But their opinions hadn’t been sought, and they were so pleased, typically pleased to share. They were sensitive at giving advice, but they were very happy to be able to input into the conversation. And you asked, What was the most standout thing, but I’ll add something else. The other thing that stood me out is that actually. Actually, a lot of them have very limited understanding of the challenges that women are actually faced with. Okay,
 
Michael Hingson ** 45:09
can you, can you tell me a little bit more about that? I’ll
 
Susan Popoola ** 45:13
give you an example. So, I mean, so I’ll give to to one of the men. One of the things he said is, well, as men, men are very simple, and this is his perspective, but men are simple, easy to understand, very straightforward, but women are much more complex. And you’ve probably have heard jokes about you can describe a man on one page. And woman, you need a whole book. But put that aside, the key is from his perspective, and from some of the things that was said, you can tell that there’s a limited understanding of men and that goes and there is that reality. If you here in the UK, we’ve in recent years started talking quite a bit about menopause, something that wasn’t spoken about before. It’s something that directly impacts a significant number of women, to varying degrees, but it doesn’t affect men directly, but until we started having those conversations. Men had no most men had no understanding of the impact or why women so they might even have a partner who might start acting differently at a certain time. So that’s so, that’s, that’s an example, and that impacts women at a personal level, and it also affects them in the workplace as well.
 
Michael Hingson ** 46:49
Did you find and do you find that there are some men who would say, well, but the very fact that they have to go through all that really means that they’re not going to be as helpful at work, because they’ve got too many challenges to go through,
 
Susan Popoola ** 47:06
not the men that I spoke to, because I took more of an appreciative inquiry approach. So speaking to people I could learn more from, rather than not. And so rather than there being the men that spoke of, okay, the challenges that women are faced with that might mean that they shouldn’t be in the workplace, there were the men that spoke of the fact that actually they’ve worked with women or employed women who, in the early years of their career may have taken time off to on maternity on from maternity leave, had children taken time a fair amount of time out, but come back to the workplace and that they’re loyal. That is one of the things that came up a few times the loyalty of women, and we’re generalizing, yeah, they’re more likely to stay with what same workplace longer term, while men are more likely to move across, move from different, one organization to another. So they spoke of the value that if you support a woman through that, through that stage, then you’re likely to have an employee that is going to be with you and supporting your organization long term.
 
Michael Hingson ** 48:37
Yeah, and I think, and the reason I asked the question is all about, I can see, and I’ve heard men say those kinds of things, and it really usually indicates to me a significant lack of understanding about the reality that we all have needs and differences. I think more men are starting to recognize a little bit the value of taking time when a new child is born, to take some leave and help dealing with that child as well. But I face it a lot as a person who is blind, when I when I hear people talking about persons with disabilities, well, they’ve got too many problems, it’ll be too expensive to bring them in. Insurance will will go up, or we have to buy this equipment, and we don’t have to buy that equipment for other people. And so many excuses. And they are excuses, because the reality is, the reality is insurance won’t go up. The reality is that when you talk about buying equipment to give somebody the ability to do a job or the opportunity to do a job, we’re already buying other equipment for people to do the job. I mean, we provide electric lights so that you can walk down a hall. Which isn’t something that I need to worry about. But the bottom line is that we provide electricity to provide electric lights, or we provide computer monitors, and we hiccup about maybe spending a couple $100 for a screen reader so a blind person can have a job, even though we have no problem spending money providing a computer monitor. A lot of it really is excuses, rather than thinking it through.
 
Susan Popoola ** 50:26
Yeah, and I know I would agree, I mean, and I would add, typically, and you can correct me if you’ve been cover wise, if a person has a disability in one area, they often have heightened abilities in other areas,
 
Michael Hingson ** 50:48
only, only if they train them. It’s not an automatic process, which a lot of people think it is. It’s not so hearing. I’m not speaking
 
Susan Popoola ** 50:59
so I’m not speaking from the workplace. I’m speaking no more generally. No, I
 
Michael Hingson ** 51:03
am too. It’s not heightened just because, in other words, a blind person doesn’t hear better simply because they don’t see. You still have to train the hearing. You still have to train yourself to be able to do that. So that’s what I’m saying, is that it’s, it’s not really heightened. It’s if it appears so it’s because we’ve learned to use our hearing more than a lot of people do.
 
Susan Popoola ** 51:32
So I think we’re more or less saying the same way. I um, I’m not saying it’s, I might not have been clear, but I’m not saying it’s by nature, but it’s, it’s you, it’s developed. So that’s correct. So take that on board, so that it’s developed so, so that’s this what might not be there. There’s something else there that others might not have. But there’s also the thing that where you make adjustments or you bring something new in for the sake of one person, that often benefits the wider team. I there’s an example that I use in relation to deaf people. Um, people often. I remember going to a restaurant with a group of young deaf people, and I specifically was talking to a young guy who who could read very well and engage. But what struck me is, though, while I’d had a full conversation with him. When a waiter came across, the waiter didn’t look at any of the young people. They automatically looked at the other people to say, what what do they want? What
 
Michael Hingson ** 52:54
do they want, right? What
 
Susan Popoola ** 52:55
do they want? But the reality is, if they had looked at the young people from for the most part, maybe not all of them, but for most of them, if they, which goes back to your earlier point, if they had looked at them and spoken to them, they could have had a conversation with them. And I’ve always said that I would actually like to to to use, to to engage with deaf people in a program, to help people to improve their communication, because the bit that the waiters weren’t doing was they weren’t looking at the people, and that’s the bit you should do with everyone. So I think we can learn to better engage with people through deaf people.
 
Michael Hingson ** 53:48
We, unfortunately, all too often, learn to fear people who are different than we, or we learn to fear difference, and I think that starts at an early age. I oftentimes will be somewhere and a child will want to come up and pet my dog. And I don’t want a child to come up and pet my dog. I do want them to ask, and then they can pet the dog. But I hear the mother go, that dog might bite or that you don’t want to go talk to that man. Don’t embarrass that man. And so many different things we we teach it so collectively in society, which is unfortunate too, we teach the sphere of difference. Yeah.
 
Susan Popoola ** 54:31
I mean, I talk about being a white child, because if you think of that child that is told not to the child might probably say, why not? Why? Why? Why? And I don’t know why, but for four year old, the question that they’re most inclined to ask is, why, yeah, but in line with what you said, we tend to knock that out of them, yeah. But. And I think we shouldn’t. We should let them ask the why and let them explore. Teach them how, if anything, teach them how to ask why with sensitivity. So the child that wants to come and pet your dog, rather than the parents saying, don’t tell the child, okay, you want to pet the dog. Go ask, Can I pet your dog? Please? Sure.
 
Michael Hingson ** 55:27
And that’s, that’s the point, right? But we, we don’t encourage curiosity nearly as much as we should. That’s, that’s unfortunate. What do you think is the biggest barrier to inclusion?
 
Susan Popoola ** 55:41
We’ve just been talking about it, yeah, it’s, it’s the other in people. It’s the lack of it’s the fear to engage. So it’s not seeing P other people, it’s of it’s that basically othering of people and the ability to be and so if we could just take the time to see other people, and if we could all be that more gracious as well knowing that sometimes people will get it wrong. So allow for people to get it wrong, correct them, but correct them with a degree of gentleness, rather than in a harsh way, which makes them run away as if they were bitten by the dog and never come back.
 
Michael Hingson ** 56:27
Yeah, rather than correcting understanding is what we all ought to provide. A lot more than we do, and I hope over time, people will see that, and maybe this podcast will help, which is why we’re having it, of course, I
 
Susan Popoola ** 56:45
hope so. I mean, because I use the I am a visual thinker. So when I talk about a mosaic world, I do think of it in very visual terms, but that’s what you’re used to, yeah, but with whatever senses apply to people, if you can imagine a world in which everyone’s valued, in a world with richness, whereby you talk to people and there’s always something new to learn from them, and there’s something positive, and they’re adding to us and we’re adding to them, I might say, as if it’s a dream. But it’s not something insurmountable. Can start in small communities. We can start in teams, within organizations, to all organizations, to towns, to schools, to what have you. It’s not an insurmountable thing for us to all work towards.
 
Michael Hingson ** 57:48
You grew up in a in a family, and you value, clearly, the whole concept of what family brings to each of us. Why are you so interested in foster children?
 
Susan Popoola ** 58:00
Oh, well, you said I grew up in a family that I mean, so there are two parts to it. So if you remember when I we started talking, I mentioned that I grew up my foundation. Years were in a white working class area. I was actually what they call private fostered when I was small. So that’s an arrangement made with my parents. I guess if my parents were in Nigeria, they would have had the extended family support. But being in England, as many Nigerians were the 50s, 60s, 70s, studying, they didn’t have that support network around them while they were trying to study and work, and sometimes they always have the accommodation and other factors come to play. So I spent my foundation years with implied, what they call private fostering, an arrangement made with my my parents and so that, to some extent, informs me, especially as through the years, as an adult, I came across other people that were either private, fostered, fostered One or two very good friends with that experience, became into having the conversations, became aware of the challenges. Now, I was quite fortunate. I was in relatively state. I was in a loving, caring environment. As a small child, I had a family in my old years, so I always had that, but becoming aware of the challenges, the displacement, that the trauma that comes for number of young people who have been foster cared, and the fact that and there’s what they call the cliff, whereby. Even if you sometimes, you will have been in foster care, and you will be fought with foster parents that say that they are parents for life. And so to the outside world, they wouldn’t know that you’re not with your birth parents. But for others, you get to that age of an average 18, whereby a lot of the support that you had, and you might not have had a lot of support in the first instance, but a lot of that support is withdrawn, and you therefore find yourself in a place as an 18 year old, whereby, yes, you can drink and you can drive, but you’re making crucial decisions about life, and you’re largely on your own. And I don’t think it should be that way. And so the work I do in that space is very much either directly or through others, supporting such young people to better understand who they are, what they want, and take steps towards achieving it, and with that, the ultimate vision is every foster child should know that they’re loved, valued and have the support that they Need to be the best that they want to be,
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25
and it doesn’t get any better than that. No,
 
Susan Popoola ** 1:01:28
and it’s not asking for too much. No, not at all.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:01:33
And I think it is something that we all are obligated to help and should be obligated to help children,
 
Susan Popoola ** 1:01:40
and that’s one of the reasons why. So they’re the programs that we’ve run over time. Then there’s what we’ve started develop. What we’ve developed, it has a UK focus at the moment, but building out what I call the care experience village, because while in the States, use the broad term, or first of let me use the term fostering. We use foster care in some circumstances, but we also used a wider term of care a young person being in care. So a young person is a care leave or care experienced. So we’ve got what I call the care experience village, which has some information to help people better understand what the care experience is, and so they have a better empathy, some resources as well. So they if they meet someone who’s been in foster care, that they’re better able to support, to both engage with and support them.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:02:46
So in your business, do you work with people just in the UK or because we have a virtual world, you can work with people elsewhere as well. Yeah,
 
Susan Popoola ** 1:02:55
I work with people globally. I’ve worked a lot of you in the UK, with Europe, the states, parts of Africa and the Middle East as well. So I work wherever there are good organizations and leaders who really want to have a positive impact, if
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:19
people want to reach out to you and maybe make contact and see how you can work with them and assist them in what they do. How do they do that, and what’s the name of your business, and how would they reach out so
 
Susan Popoola ** 1:03:32
they could simply Google, go to LinkedIn and find Susan Popoola. Popoola spell P, O, P, double, O, L, A. Alternatively, they could go to mosaic world or one word dot Live, which is L, i, v, e.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:03:52
And there are ways to contact you through mosaic world. Then when they go to that site, indeed,
 
Susan Popoola ** 1:03:58
what mosaic world will do is it will give you a showcase into the different areas, from the publications to the consultancy work to talks and to the work with young people.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:04:17
Well, great. Well, I want to thank you for spending all of this time with us and describing what you do and describing your thoughts, I think that the insights are extremely valuable and helpful, and I hope people will take it to heart and that they will reach out and engage with you, and clearly you’re helping to enhance understanding. And I and I trust that that people will recognize that and will work better to understand, I guess, is the best way to put it. Yeah,
 
Susan Popoola ** 1:04:48
thank you, and it’s a pleasure. And yes, I’d love for people to get in touch. It will be great. The more people are engaged, the more we can do. For the benefit of all
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:05:02
well, I want to thank you again for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening to us today. Susan’s been a wonderful conversationalist, and I’ve enjoyed it, and I’ve learned a lot, and I hope all of you have as well. I’d love to hear from you. You are welcome to email me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com so that’s m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to visit our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hinkson.com/podcast, and Michael Hinkson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n, so wherever you’re listening, I do hope, and really would appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating on our podcast, and that you will tell others about us, and for you, Susan, and for everyone, including speaking of and telling others about us, if you know of anyone who ought to be a guest, we’d love to hear from you. We’d love to have an introduction to anyone who wants to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. You can you can tell that we have a nice, easy, flowing conversation, and that’s what it’s all about. So we’d love to have anyone on who wants to come because I believe everyone has stories to tell. So please give us a rating. We value that very highly. And Susan, once more, I want to thank you for being here with us.
 
Susan Popoola ** 1:06:27
Thank you very much for having me, and thank you for all that you do, because I’ve had an amazing conversation with you, and I’ve listened to some of the other conversations you have, and you’re doing some great work. Thank you.
 
Michael Hingson ** 1:06:40
Well, thank you. It’s a pleasure. And again, thank you for being here. And I think we had a lot of fun, don’t you?
 
1:06:46
I do indeed.
 
**Michael Hingson ** 1:06:52
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you’ll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you’re on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you’re there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.